Can the concept of rape exist in the Fundi-verse?

[sparkles]

Not sure if this should be here or in Chatter, so please move it if I got it wrong. Thanks!

First, I'll say that despite my interest in fundies, I've never read the bible (old or new) so my knowledge of scripture is sketchy at best and comes from what I've read here and in various blogs and books. Second, it's only recently that I've started delving into the political implications of fundie beliefs so I'm definitely nowhere near as knowledgeable as many other FJers. But in light of so many of the recent comments from various religious right wingnuts and fundies regarding rape I've really been puzzled as to how the concept of rape can even exist in the fundie-verse and I thought I'd pose the question here for your insights.

From all I've read about fundies, women must submit, submit, submit to men in any and all regards (including, according to Debi Swine and her ilk, submitting to a man's sexual demands, regardless of the woman's health, feelings, needs, etc.). Men are the headships, the spiritual leaders, the brains, the brawn--all decisions are made by them, they are in control. Wives and daughters are under the authority of their husbands and fathers and absent those male figures, female headship passes to yet another male--son, brother, uncle, church leader, related or otherwise. Women are incapable and forbidden to be autonomous. A woman has no will of her own, no self-determination. A woman is nothing more than a possession and the possessor must always be a man.

So I'm baffled as to how fundies can talk about rape--"legitimate" or otherwise--when by my understanding of what I've read, rape cannot exist. A woman is raped when she is sexually brutalized against her will but how can this happen when according to fundie beliefs she HAS NO WILL other than to submit to a male, even if that male is a complete stranger? Fundies merely pretend to be (somewhat) concerned about the idea of rape, because it's a subject of outrage in the civilized world, as it should be. But I truly, honestly think that they don't believe rape is possible and it's one reason why they're so quick to dismiss and rationalize it--because it cannot exist in their world. Therefore, it's easy to marginalize, demonize and blame the victims and survivors, since they're really only victims of their own delusions and hubris.

Thoughts?

[Fargood]

I went to a liberal Lutheran school, so other than my Mormon upbringing, the extent of my religious knowledge only goes as far as the two religion classes they make you take. Take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I remember from my religion classes that in the old Testament, the definition of rape was *extremely* narrow. For instance, you couldn't technically be raped in the city, because if you really didn't want the rape to happen, you would scream loud enough so that someone would save you. If you were raped in the county, but there was no one there to hear you scream, then maybe it was real. Nevermind all those pesky details about someone overpowering you, gagging you, holding a knife to your neck, threatening your family, etc.

It seems to me that the Fundies interpret rape as being as narrow, if not more narrow than the old Testament definition.

[debrand]

I think that because they live in the modern world, most fundies understand rape. However, their interpretation of religion should consider rape only in relationships to stealing something belonging to a man. So, a daughter's virginity is stolen from her future husband and father. A wife's body can't be used by anyone but the husband. The woman's view on what is done with her body shouldn't matter. The reason that fundies don't think like this is because of the influence of our society. If they remain isolated long enough perhaps they will start viewing rape only as stealing something from a man.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I think their problem with rape is that they don't believe there would ever be an opportunity for it if women didn't put themselves into those situations. Women shouldn't be out in the world, working, going to school, going anywhere alone, dressing a certain way. If they just did that, then who would men rape?

[2xx1xy1JD]

At some level, in "honor-based cultures", it is defined as a man having sex with a woman without her father's consent.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I also disagree with the first post that the Bible limits women to being a possession and having no free will. There are strong, intelligent women in the bible.

[sparkles]

However, their interpretation of religion should consider rape only in relationships to stealing something belonging to a man. So, a daughter's virginity is stolen from her future husband and father.

So the "crime," such that it is, is against the man not the woman. You've messed with his possessions. There's just no way a woman can be wronged.

[debrand]

I also disagree with the first post that the Bible limits women to being a possession and having no free will. There are strong, intelligent women in the bible.

I agree that there are strong women in the bible. However, the laws said that a rapist could either pay for or marry his victim and everything would be all right

My computer is running slow but I will try to post the appropriate verses

[Hane]

I have no doubt that they consider rape a real thing, but that it's practically always the woman's fault, because she was in a place she shouldn't be, or with the "wrong" people.

I'm sure they could wrap themselves around the concept of rape as performed by an "unsaved" man, but they'd rally around and protect any one of their own who was accused--or even convicted--of rape.

Think of that horrible case of the teenaged girl who was raped and impregnated by a "pillar" of her church. She was made to get up and confess to her "sin" of "fornication," then was sent away from home and made to give the baby up for adoption to another church member.

Her rapist simply had to get up and confess, in a vague manner, to "cheating" on his wife--not to the rape of an underage girl.

[sparkles]

I also disagree with the first post that the Bible limits women to being a possession and having no free will. There are strong, intelligent women in the bible.

As I mentioned, my knowledge of the bible is practically non-existent although I'm aware of many of the women of the bible. They don't seem to get mentioned though, except in pro-women rebuttals from non-fundies. Fundies rarely talk about the intelligent, strong women of the bible, except to spin some kind of cautionary tale.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I think their problem with rape is that they don't believe there would ever be an opportunity for it if women didn't put themselves into those situations. Women shouldn't be out in the world, working, going to school, going anywhere alone, dressing a certain way. If they just did that, then who would men rape?

i agree with that. Fundies seem to believe that if women dress modestly enough, never go out alone, and never speak to an unrelated man then rape will never happen. They would just blame the victims, for doing something they find unacceptable for women, , so I can see them believing that rape only happens to immodest heathens. Isn't that one of their reasons for modest dresses and being chaperoned everywhere? To prevent me from "sinning"? Spousal rape is something that fundies probably don't think exists.

[debrand]

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB

[debrand]

As I mentioned, my knowledge of the bible is practically non-existent although I'm aware of many of the women of the bible. They don't seem to get mentioned though, except in pro-women rebuttals from non-fundies. Fundies rarely talk about the intelligent, strong women of the bible, except to spin some kind of cautionary tale.

the bible talks plenty about rape. Women were spoils of war and belonged to their husbands and father. Yes, there are strong women in the bible but that doesn't change the many verses discussing rape and how men were to treat rape victims.

[debrand]

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

I found the particular verses here but I've read them myself many times. I'm strange in that I actually enjoy reading the bible even though I don't believe in god. It has good stories and interesting characters.

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

[RosyDaisy]

I think their problem with rape is that they don't believe there would ever be an opportunity for it if women didn't put themselves into those situations. Women shouldn't be out in the world, working, going to school, going anywhere alone, dressing a certain way. If they just did that, then who would men rape?

THIS! Among the fundies I know, this describes how they believe to a "T".

[chaotic life]

In theory, most Fundies think they believe in rape. However, they apply a litmus test SO strict and legalistic that only a tiny fraction of rapes would be considered rape for most Fundies.

In general, if ANY form or method can be applied to assign blame to the victim, they will ALWAYS blame the victim. Spousal rape does NOT exist in any fashion because a married woman has no rights to her own body. Girls who are raped must either be very chaste and violently attacked by a stranger, while actively trying to protect herself, maintain modesty AND not end up pregnant. Or, she would need to be an old woman also violently attacked. If she is above the age of 8-12, most fundies would absolutely find her at least partially, if not wholly at fault.

My own parents told me my rape was partially my fault because I agreed to go on a date with my rapist at THEIR insistance, so as to not offend the Youth Minister and make my father's job ackward as the new minister and despite my own serious hesitations in going. I have refused to speak of my rape to my father for 18 years because I will not tolerate him ever again uttering that I was to blame in any way.

[mkitten]

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB

2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB

Reading this just makes me ill. I just don't understand why fundies think that this kind of violence and misogyny is acceptable for children to hear (since of course there should be no age-appropriate instruction) but somehow Disney movies and Pixar are "of the Devil." Some of the books in the Bible are the most vile, hate-filled, vliolent, oppressive, :angry-banghead: pieces of literature out there. (I'm not hatefully anti-Christian; I just get the worst flashbacks of the you're going to hell, violent angry sermons that I heard as a young kid that were NOT ok for little kids, and it pisses me off that people expose their kids to Bible violence and think it's ok.) There are some parts of the Bible that provide good points to live by, love thy neighbor, etc. It's just sad that the fundies don't actually live that part of Christianity, they choose the hate... /rant

[CynicMom]

It's actually worse than that. According to the fundamentalist viewpoint evil cannot exist AT ALL. It's existence is irreconcilable with the idea of an omnipotent and omni-benevolent god. Rape is coming up more and more these days because of developments regarding Roe v. Wade. The populace is slightly more pro-choice than it used to be and some 90% of fetuses with Down Syndrome (for example) are aborted. Abortion is generally seen as regrettable but acceptable under certain circumstances. There are a lot of people shifting away from a black and white view to more of a nuanced view.

This is a big problem for fundamentalists. Even pro-life people often balk at the idea of forcing a woman to bear her rapists' baby. Pro-choicers are quick to point out the hypocrisy. Either a fetus has a life equal to the womans' or they don't. So the fundamentalists have to claim to want to force a woman to bear her rapists baby in the name of consistency. Then they have to go on national television to clarify that they don't worship a rape loving god.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-25-2012/republican-candidate-said-what-about-rape-now-

[CynicMom]

I just wanted to add that according to their theology God made that woman get raped. It would be hubris to go against that. Why this logic is only applied to women and not to, say, job losses by men, I'll leave up to you to guess.

[Curly Girl]

In theory, most Fundies think they believe in rape. However, they apply a litmus test SO strict and legalistic that only a tiny fraction of rapes would be considered rape for most Fundies.

In general, if ANY form or method can be applied to assign blame to the victim, they will ALWAYS blame the victim. Spousal rape does NOT exist in any fashion because a married woman has no rights to her own body. Girls who are raped must either be very chaste and violently attacked by a stranger, while actively trying to protect herself, maintain modesty AND not end up pregnant. Or, she would need to be an old woman also violently attacked. If she is above the age of 8-12, most fundies would absolutely find her at least partially, if not wholly at fault.

My own parents told me my rape was partially my fault because I agreed to go on a date with my rapist at THEIR insistance, so as to not offend the Youth Minister and make my father's job ackward as the new minister and despite my own serious hesitations in going. I have refused to speak of my rape to my father for 18 years because I will not tolerate him ever again uttering that I was to blame in any way.

QFT.

I am so sorry for what has happened to you. :(

[AnnieC 305]

I agree with the idea that on one level they view rape as something being stolen from a man.

It would not surprise me to find an unspoken belief that a girl is married to the first man who manages PIV, and if that man is not someone chosen by, almost contracted with, the father then yes, something has been stolen from the father, and probably by the evil girl who didn't follow the rules, dress and act meekly, only went out chaperoned and so on. I say contracted because of the whole courtship nonsense thing.

To me it looks like a teeny tiny step toward having a 'bride price' attached, the fathers tell the young men "I must approve of your theology and you have to somehow make up for the loss of my junior helpmeet". Which is then one very small step away from auctioning off your daughter's virginity to the highest bidder. At which point rape would be stealing, as would pre-marital sex, and they would be equal to each other.

If it starts coming up on the blogs in the next five years, remember, you heard it here first.

[Guest Anonymous]

This whole controversy has me scratching my head.

Here's a link to a post on my blog on this current controversy. http://deargodwhatnow.blogspot.com/2012 ... 9638421840

True fundamental literalists would allow for rapists to marry their victims. That kind of crazy seems perfectly normal in Fundieland. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

I read the link you posted. I really hope that crap never becones law. I cant believe its even being discussed or considered. Or that its gotten that far into the bill making process.

[rock_girl]

Rape can't exist - inside marriage or out - because fundies don't believe that men should be held responsible for their actions toward women. There's always a reason for the rape that places the blame 100% on the woman (revealing clothing, leading the man on, being out after dark, etc, etc). It's the same with domestic violence, catcalling, or your run of the mill psycho shooting up a university and targeting the female engineering students.

Personal responsibility is big with the fundies when it comes to things like single mothers on welfare or women's health clinics that serve a client list that can't afford contraception elsewhere. Strangely, though, personal responsibility is not so important when it comes to keeping your tragic manhood in your pants.