Fundie intelligence

[Distant Lines]

Just wanted to add that I think fundies who choose this lifestyle are less intelligent, in that they lack critical thinking skills. They lack the type of intelligence needed to make your own choices and form your own opinions, so they need someone to tell them what to do.

It's different for children raised in this lifestyle, but their parents try to teach them not to be able to make their own decisions. For the parents, this is probably more innate.

Exactly. I think that's what so much of intelligence comes down to. When you take the time to really look at the world around you, research, and form your own opinions, that is how intelligence is gained. These kids are taught from the womb that that is not how it's supposed to be though. They're told they are never supposed to challenge what is told to them by their parents or their churches, which means they never form the critical thinking skills it takes to form one's own opinion and learn about the world. It's really sad. Some of those kids in the cult could probably go on to such great things in life if they hadn't been born to such hateful people who want to stop brain development at like 10.

[OkToBeTakei]

I saw this thread and thought It was like an FBI MI5 thing.

'Fundie camera found in home of FJ member. Caused death of 60 yr old Kansas spy. Sources claimed the evidence of 'idolotry' was the cause of death.'

[Deleted07]

I highly agree with the comments saying that fundies definitely lack critical thinking and reasoning skills!

Its clear they lack any form of reasoning beyond 'God says so!' and when you (even in the nicest possible way) show to them the history of their beliefs, ceremonies, The Bible itself etc. They literally just can't cope with the contradictions you present to them, leading to the flouncing and freak-outs and blocking! lol!

I think also, having researched ATI/IBLP Gothardism and all the 'Journey to the Heart' materials, it basically comes down to; Any form of questioning takes you away from God, hence taking you away from your parents, your family, heaven and in essence leading you toward evil, satan and Hell! and that is literally what these materials and journeys and classes teach!

So it absolutely isn't an understatement to say kids raised in this lifestyle are brainwashed and indoctrined not to question or think, because they are indeed taught that it will lead down the path of evil!

[AnnieC 305]

I think they have as much potential as any kid, but it is squashed out of them by a poor education and being taught to believe things because their parents/the church/Gothard says so, not because they have researched it and think the evidence is good for it.

Lack of critical thinking skills and how to solve problems without being told what to do is a big disadvantage as they constantly need to be told what to do, but will never gain the ability to think independently, which is a big part of being a fully functional adult. They get lazy in thinking, because when there is a problem that needs solving, theyre taught that "God did it/wanted it to be this way" or to go and ask their parents.

Their education is compromised from being homeschooled along with loads of other kids of different ages, which means the parents have less time to teach each child at an age appropriate level. When they have a load of kids, it often falls on the older kids to school the younger ones, which further affects them as they have no teaching experience and often have barely finished school themselves.

Some of the little kids seem to be fairly intelligent and full of life, but then they lose that when they're older as thinking is not encouraged.

They also lack skills that more worldly kids would have, such as social skills, as they aren't allowed to have friends. They are isolated from the rest of the world, which means they don't get the pop culture references that other people would get, as they dont watch TV, read books other than Christian ones, see movies or listen to music. They dont know about current events, or how to react to people who are different from them.

All of the above plus, from what we can tell, a constant low-level of malnutrition that would stunt their growth and their neurological development. Malnutrition caused by only being allotted a certain number of calories a day (to stay on budget with all those kids) and then being fed processed crap from (insert discount store here) or the latest fad diet. (Question, are any of the Duggars close to as tall as Jim Bob? I have not watched that closely.)

Also being behind their peers by parents taking 2-3 years to complete one year of homeschool curriculum in order to save money or make time to teach "character".

Also by being a teenage mother, in practice if not in body, with all the drawbacks that entails.

[ILoveJellybeans]

All of the above plus, from what we can tell, a constant low-level of malnutrition that would stunt their growth and their neurological development. Malnutrition caused by only being allotted a certain number of calories a day (to stay on budget with all those kids) and then being fed processed crap from (insert discount store here) or the latest fad diet. (Question, are any of the Duggars close to as tall as Jim Bob? I have not watched that closely.)

Also being behind their peers by parents taking 2-3 years to complete one year of homeschool curriculum in order to save money or make time to teach "character".

Also by being a teenage mother, in practice if not in body, with all the drawbacks that entails.

Ive never noticed the heights of the Duggars, some of the older girls are way taller than Michelle, but she looks to be quite short. Havent noticed them compared to JimBob though. Id say they are missing out on nutrients though due to looking at their meals, and seeing Joshs attitude to food change once he was out of their control and could buy his own food, thats a sign of being restricted in food.

Some of the fundie kids do look very thin for their age, and seem to eat very little because their parents cant afford to feed them, and that can affect brain development.

I didnt know about the deliberate slowing down of schooling so they dont need to buy new school books and materials every year, but that is awful, and thats not suprising given the level of their education and how young they seem as adults-at this rate, the 20 year olds probably only have a 5th grade education. I am suprised this is even allowed, there needs to be more standards with homeschooling.

[emmiedahl]

Intelligence is like height--you have a natural inborn range and if given a healthy upbringing you will fall within that range. My older brother and I are both significantly shorter than our other siblings because we were born prematurely and also had some health problems growing up. Similarly, a fundie child who is smacked around, never allowed to explore, and deprived of normal brain-building experiences will likely end up less intelligent than they could have been, possibly even below their natural range. You would have to fuck up pretty badly, but a lot of these fundie families are indeed doing some very counterproductive things.

They like to compare themselves favorably to the typical two-child family, so let's go with that. A typical American toddler has lots of toys and books, people who read to them and talk to them, early educational experiences like play groups and museums, and very little if any negative punishment. They are allowed to explore their environment within reasonable, safe parameters that increase as they get older. They have loving adults caring for them and not a distracted, bitter teenager. The typical American child will be within their intelligence range; depending on interaction levels and their environment, they will likely be at the upper end. Their little neurons are making connections and building a brain that is ready for critical thinking by middle childhood. By the time they hit that age, they are in some sort of schooling and being encouraged to keep that little brain working by acquiring information and skills. But that fundie child is kept on a blanket, taught to obey, and never ever allowed to make their own decisions. These families seem to have varied amounts of toys and books, often in amounts and qualities that are barely sufficient at best, and their experiences are geared to the whole family (eg, no toddler play group, no children's museums, etc).

Most parents are aware of the importance of brain development and devote a certain amount of time and money toward this end. Fundie babies and toddlers get the bare minimum they need to survive. The goal is to get them well-trained and out of your hair by the time you have the next.

[Arete]

Just wanted to add that I think fundies who choose this lifestyle are less intelligent, in that they lack critical thinking skills. They lack the type of intelligence needed to make your own choices and form your own opinions, so they need someone to tell them what to do.

It's different for children raised in this lifestyle, but their parents try to teach them not to be able to make their own decisions. For the parents, this is probably more innate.

Steve Maxwell was an engineering in the aerospace industry before he went off the deep end. The real estate empire Jim Bob Duggar has amassed would not have been possible if he lacked critical thinking skills. Joe Salatin is on the cutting edge of sustainable agricultural practices, and has contributed a lot to this field. What fundies like this want is a template on how to have a perfect life. Tell me that if I follow A,B, and C that D will always be the result. They don't like uncertainty, they don't like nuance. They want guarantees that if they follow a set of rules, success will always be the outcome. As a result of all the rigid rules they put around themselves and their families, they assure that their children never get anywhere near the maximum of their individual intelligence ranges.

[fundiefan]

I don't think it has anything to do with actual intelligence. There could be geniuses in fundieland but no one will ever know because they are not allowed to explore or pursue that.

It's not intelligence, as a whole. It's controlled 'learning'; fundie children are only taught what their fundie parents want them to know. They don't have a chance. Adult fundies who chose to be fundies ignore any intelligence they may have in favor of living a life with all the right rules and answers. It's easier that way.

I don't think it is possible to measure intelligence in fundie land. No real thought actually exists.

[simplysweet]

I think most fundies are lazy thinkers. They've found a dogma which answers any questions they have about life, the universe and everything that requires no critical thinking or awkward crises of faith. So they pass it along to their kids and don't require high educational standards, much less challenging educational standards for whatever intelligence level their kids are at. And *that* generation of kids is dumbed down. In short, it's a case of "use it or lose it."

Absolutely this!!!!!!

[snarkbillie]

As a generally bright inquisitive kid I was basically physically punished for asking questions so I think the smart is beat out of most of the fundie kids. If you question God you're sinning. Sinning is something you get hit for.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Coming late to this.

I don't think they are less intelligent than average. I think most of them have suffered emotional trauma, which makes the black-and-white logic apply to them.

I've found that many religious people have extremely in-depth and complicated ways of deluding themselves, which does require a certain amount of intelligence, even if it's dead wrong.

[Renting with Raggles]

Steve Maxwell was an engineering in the aerospace industry before he went off the deep end. The real estate empire Jim Bob Duggar has amassed would not have been possible if he lacked critical thinking skills. Joe Salatin is on the cutting edge of sustainable agricultural practices, and has contributed a lot to this field. What fundies like this want is a template on how to have a perfect life. Tell me that if I follow A,B, and C that D will always be the result. They don't like uncertainty, they don't like nuance. They want guarantees that if they follow a set of rules, success will always be the outcome. As a result of all the rigid rules they put around themselves and their families, they assure that their children never get anywhere near the maximum of their individual intelligence ranges.

Have to agree - an affinity for fundie-life seems more a function of personality than intelligence. I don't think the Duggars are exactly a Brains Trust, but people like Doug Phillips and the Botkins are clever enough; however, it's the massive ego that prevents them from engaging in any meaningful academic pursuit. Anna Sophia and Elizabeth approach every subject from a position of absolute authority, just like dear old dad and his cronies. Any modesty they express is usually tongue-in-cheek and if they're really struggling, they just run to daddy dearest who will set them straight as he has from their infancy. In what field would that kind of attitude not be a liability?

[DifferentGurl]

Fundies like the Duggars make me think about what my sister said for her "Dream for America" assignment for school...her dream is to sterilize all the stupid people so they can't pass on their "dumb" genes. JimBob and Michelle would be prime candidates for sterilization. :P

[Three and Done]

It seems to me that it all comes down to "nature vs. nuture". You may have a child that is born with the capability of achieving great heights; yet if that child is denied the freedom to grow and learn, they will not reach their full potential.

[DarkAnts]

I think part of the problem is that the children are not allowed to read a wide variety of material. They are also not exposed to different view points and are not encouraged to develop critical thinking skills. No one ever ask them dose this make sense to you.

I am kind of amazed at some of the freshmen in the chemistry lab. They get numbers that are way out of line. My favorite is when they get 200% yield for a reaction where they make a compound. If I ask them if it makes sense and they say "well its what I got." We have to push to get them to think critically sometimes. These are kids who for the most part were educated in the public school system.

[wendy-sparkles]

Fundies like the Duggars make me think about what my sister said for her "Dream for America" assignment for school...her dream is to sterilize all the stupid people so they can't pass on their "dumb" genes. JimBob and Michelle would be prime candidates for sterilization. :P

your sister is a bit behind...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_i ... ted_States

(also "dumb" is generally considered an ableist slur. Normally I wouldn't bring it up, but in this context it's a little bit troubling. Sorry if this is too handslappy :| )

[DifferentGurl]

your sister is a bit behind...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_i ... ted_States

(also "dumb" is generally considered an ableist slur. Normally I wouldn't bring it up, but in this context it's a little bit troubling. Sorry if this is too handslappy :| )

Don't worry. She's not going to present this "sterilize the dumb" dream in her "American Dream" speech. I think my mom knew that in this context ( as eugenics ), it would scare the teacher.

My sister was half joking when she said that. She's going through a "people are so stupid" stage in her life. There just seems to be so many stupid people out there that she thinks that keeping them from reproducing would make the world a better place.

[marmalade]

My husband and I were just discussing fundie intelligence yesterday and decided that these cults will die out in a couple of generations simply because they won't be able to compete anywhere in the American economy. I recall hearing on the news inside of the last 6 months that experts estimate that due to shifts in the types of jobs that the US will produce in the future, 60% of adults will have to have college diplomas. I believe the statistic is in the 40-50% range now. Every indicator in the secular world is going to make it harder for kids to go to college; the fundies who've kept their kids sheltered and less educated with every subsequent generation will suffer, likely even more than the Mexican immigrants they often deplore as "illegals who take 'Murrikin jobs!!!!!1111."

The kids can only explore as far as their parents own intellect, and their particular cult, will allow. Steve Maxwell may have once been an aerospace engineer, but no one in their family exhibits writing skills commensurate with his education. He has essentially thrown away everything he learned in college (other than the mechanicals that keep Uriah on the road), leaving this utter void that Teri passes along to their children. Ironic since so much of their ministry is built around their books, "Corners" and the Moody garbage.

At least VF appears to demonstrate some intellect, although wildly misplaced, especially their skewed views on history. Dougie still writes like he's in law school, but at least that exposes his followers to something a tad less stuffy, and younger in tone, than Gothard's screeds.