Fundie intelligence

[fundies_like_zombies]

Do you think that the fundie way of educating (christian books only etc) actually makes children less intelligent?

Was thinking bout it as some of the stuff that fundies post on their blogs or say is so stupid. Or maybe their education / views mean that they don't look for stuff and just believe what they are told. No questioning.

Or is the perfect fundie girl supposed to appear a bit dim so they hide their intelligence.

not sure what the excuse is for people that turn fundie as adults.

[trplaxle]

There is no need to concentrate on education for the girls anyway, right? I'm, guessing that they don't learn everythign they should. I wouldn't think that fundies concentrate much on history either. No need to give the kids a working knowledge of the outside world.....not to mention if the parent doing the homeschooling isn't the brightest...well the kids aren't getting the full effect there either...idk I hardly see Michelle Duggar or Kelly Bates teaching their kids some Trig....

[BravaAmica]

I think most fundies are lazy thinkers. They've found a dogma which answers any questions they have about life, the universe and everything that requires no critical thinking or awkward crises of faith. So they pass it along to their kids and don't require high educational standards, much less challenging educational standards for whatever intelligence level their kids are at. And *that* generation of kids is dumbed down. In short, it's a case of "use it or lose it."

[luckystone]

If we think of intelligent as being something inherent, then no I don't think you can make them like that if they aren't anyway, but they are definitely uneducated and ignorant.

I think not questioning or researching is tied into that and their education definitely teaches them that. Unless some of them are doing it in secret.

So yes, I think it creates very stunted adults. I wouldn't call them "unintelligent" though, because some of them might have natural aptitude for some things, and might be quite bright really. Like I said, it all depends on your definition though.

Religion in general does not value real education because it is all against thinking and learning for yourself and forming your own ideas.

[fundies_like_zombies]

So yes, I think it creates very stunted adults. I wouldn't call them "unintelligent" though, because some of them might have natural aptitude for some things, and might be quite bright really. Like I said, it all depends on your definition though.

I guess they kinda squash it out of them then. Even sadder to think that they might be naturally bright but either aren't taught anything or hide it.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I think the way fundies are taught tends to give them a less intelligent way of thinking about the world. They're taught not to question and to accept anything an authority figure says as absolute truth. So although it may not make them less intelligent inherently, and it can be over come, that way of thinking is less intelligent than questioning and intelligence. I often think about what some fundies could have been (especially the JSlaves) had they not been raised in this lifestyle and it makes me sad.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I think it inhibits the intelligence we are born with - among the fundie kids there could be a Sheldon (BBT) who could explore string theory as a physisist or a woman who becomes a research doctor and cures cancer. They both possess the intelligence, but since they never have the opportunity to develop that intelligence they never come to their full potential. In regular society these kids would be exposed to science and higher math and then hone those skills. Instead, because of their culture and community, the same 2 people become a tow truck driver and a mother.

[kunoichi66]

I think the way fundies are taught tends to give them a less intelligent way of thinking about the world. They're taught not to question and to accept anything an authority figure says as absolute truth. So although it may not make them less intelligent inherently, and it can be over come, that way of thinking is less intelligent than questioning and intelligence. I often think about what some fundies could have been (especially the JSlaves) had they not been raised in this lifestyle and it makes me sad.

I've said this on another thread, but the thought of the Duggar and Bates children.....there was (and is, for some of them) so much potential for learning and thinking and inventing in those kids, but the adults squash all inquisitiveness and independent thought out of them.

It makes me so sad...

[FlorenceHamilton]

There is some evidence that the tendency to have faith in deity is more strongly wired into some people's brains than others. This has nothing to do with intelligence. That said, the children of these extreme fundamentalists have all of their intellectual curiosity quashed in infancy and then beaten down any time it appears after that. It is fascinating and horrifying to watch it on TV and read it on the internet.

If you look at the situation from a Biologic (Evolutionary) point of view, they are breeding for narrowmindedness. The thing is that they actualy do this on purpose and fail to see the irony.

[lizziesmom]

I think the way fundies are taught tends to give them a less intelligent way of thinking about the world. They're taught not to question and to accept anything an authority figure says as absolute truth. So although it may not make them less intelligent inherently, and it can be over come, that way of thinking is less intelligent than questioning and intelligence. I often think about what some fundies could have been (especially the JSlaves) had they not been raised in this lifestyle and it makes me sad.

Exactly. They are not taught critical thinking and certainly not tauht to respect or consider differing points of view -- just the party line in responding.

[CynicMom]

There are a [link=http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1130797?uid=3739600&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101031307613]number[/link] of [link=http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/27/5/703/]studies[/link] showing that years of schooling actually increase intelligence. Given the state of the SOTDT I don't think quiverfull kids are intelligent compared to average.

[deelaem]

I saw the title of this thread and decided to play Jeopardy with it -

"What is non-existent?" Answer - "Fundie Intelligence!"

[caito]

It seems they place more value on the spiritual intelligence than academic intelligence, especially when it comes to the girls. Like the more stuff you know about the bible and the less about trigonometry, the better. Maybe they think academic intelligence is too "worldly" or something. Maybe they know that if they give their kids the best education possible they'll wise up and leave the organization.

[trplaxle]

How does the saying go? Ignorance is bliss and knowledge is power? Keep them sheltered and ignorant, and they'll stay....

[fundies_like_zombies]

i read a lot of blogs and some fundie bloggers do seem to have potential. Some even squash it themselves.

[Anxious Girl]

How does the saying go? Ignorance is bliss and knowledge is power? Keep them sheltered and ignorant, and they'll stay....

This. The boys will probably learn only "needed" education such as reading (Bible Studies) writing (using Bible passages as examples when the language is out of date), and math; along with their father's trade. The girls probably only learn reading and writing. History is white-washed, showing how Christians brought civilizations to the barbarians of Africa and the Americas. They probably won't go into detail on how Christianity justified slavery, how Christian schisms affected Europe, and how Christian monarchs used their religion as an excuse to conquering other regions of the world. They will also probably teach their children that only Christians are "good" people, leaving out such other amazing people as Muhammed Ali, Ghandi, Confucious, and the like. Because obviously white Christians never do anything wrong, and if you tell fundies they do, they will think it's OMG!persecution when it's really criticism. :evil:

[fundies_like_zombies]

lol one of the bloggers I follow is reading the family daughter book AND a philosophy book!!! :? :shock:

Open mind ... close mind .... open mind ... close mind.

[jaynie]

I seem to recall (from a class 4 years ago, so I may be mis-recalling) that the current theory is that you are born with a certain range of possible intelligences. So for example, using IQ scores*, you could be born with a potential range from, say 90-120, or 120-125 (the gap can be big or small), and then your life experiences determine where you fall on that scale. Pretty much all of the typical fundy life experiences (including poor diet!) would put them on lower end of their innate range. That plus, if we're testing IQ, they'd be at a disadvantage because they likely wouldn't experience the Flynn effect (gradual increase of IQ test scores over generations) because the Flynn effect is caused by better education in science (which uses a particular kind of reasoning). But you might still get a fundy kid scoring highly on an IQ test just because of innate capacity, because their lowest possible intelligence is comparatively high. Even so, it's still heartbreaking that their innate intelligence (low or high) isn't fostered by their parents. (With some exceptions of course. I think Libby Anne's parents were big on education for example, so she'd have some advantage over her peers. Which worked in her favour, of course!.

On a tangent, one of the big issues that has come up in a few of my psych classes is that pretty much everyone tries to define intelligence in a way that suits themselves. If we define intelligence as knowledge (which I think is a bit silly but never mind), then no, most of these kids aren't intelligent. If we split it up into a billion categories like Gardner did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_ ... elligences) then you'll probably get a lot of fundy kids scoring highly in individual categories, though probably not so many in the logic category). I tend to think of intelligence as being a sort of ability to understand and use new information quickly, thoroughly, and adaptively (which does favour me, I admit, but I'm not the only person with this definition**) then I'd say there are probably a fair few reasonably intelligent fundy kids, though most aren't being given the opportunity to hone that intelligence. Hannie Duggar is probably a good example of this in action. She obviously picks up on things quickly and likes learning and would probably be doing well in school, but it looks like her SOTDRT work is already well below her level. (I actually slightly think this might be why she's becoming a bit irritating -- she has to do *something* with that wasted brain power. I think this might be why Josiah used to be unbearably smug, too -- if you're a natural learner and fundy rhetoric is all you're allowed to learn, you're going to learn the hell out of it. But I digress.)

However you define it, it breaks my heart that these kids (all of them, even the genuinely stupid) are kept from reaching their potential by their own parents. It's basically the opposite of good parenting -- and to compound the problem by having so many kids is tragic.

*I know IQ scores can be flawed; it was just an example. I'm pretty sure this theory holds with other intelligence tests as well, though.

**Fun fact: it turns out you can predict IQ scores using only a measurement of the time it takes a person to react to a basic stimulus (like pressing a button when a light flashes) -- and you can even predict the onset of dementia if you notice a sudden drop off in reaction time. There are probably other interpretations, but my prof (who was involved in research like this) took it to suggest that a quick brain is an intelligent brain.

[mpheels]

Part of intelligence is innate, and part is fostered over a lifetime. I think there are two factors at play with fundie intelligence, which others have hit on. For starters, I think the fundie sects/cults appeal to people who are already lacking in critical thinking skills. I can sort of understand it - how nice would it be to let go of all decision making responsibilities? That isn't to say they are unintelligent, but that one aspect of intelligence may be weak. I'm sure Gil Bates has wonderful spacial reasoning skills, and Jim Bob must understand property law and finances. On the other hand, they don't appear to be very skilled at connecting superficially unrelated subjects, or synthesizing ideas on their own.

The SOTDRT method compounds the problem. Kids are encourage to learned by rote memorization, and discouraged from connecting ideas across topics and deep exploration of a subject is unheard of. Even their Bible studies are superficial. There is no interpretation or discussion. That shuts off a whole world of opportunities for continued mental development, and leaves them students, and dependent on dad and/or religious leader to make the big decisions. It is by design.

[Katydid]

I think that they are definitely not teaching their children critical thinking skills. That may not make them less intelligent, but it certainly makes them less able to form their own opinions and to view the world with open eyes.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Just wanted to add that I think fundies who choose this lifestyle are less intelligent, in that they lack critical thinking skills. They lack the type of intelligence needed to make your own choices and form your own opinions, so they need someone to tell them what to do.

It's different for children raised in this lifestyle, but their parents try to teach them not to be able to make their own decisions. For the parents, this is probably more innate.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think they have as much potential as any kid, but it is squashed out of them by a poor education and being taught to believe things because their parents/the church/Gothard says so, not because they have researched it and think the evidence is good for it.

Lack of critical thinking skills and how to solve problems without being told what to do is a big disadvantage as they constantly need to be told what to do, but will never gain the ability to think independantly, which is a big part of being a fully functional adult. They get lazy in thinking, because when there is a problem that needs solving, theyre taught that "God did it/wanted it to be this way" or to go and ask their parents.

Their education is compromised from being homeschooled along with loads of other kids of different ages, which means the parents have less time to teach each child at an age appropriate level. When they have a load of kids, it often falls on the older kids to school the younger ones, which further affects them as they have no teaching experience and often have barely finished school themselves.

Some of the little kids seem to be fairly intelligent and full of life, but then they lose that when theyre older as thinking is not encouraged.

They also lack skills that more worldly kids would have, such as social skills, as they arent allowed to have friends. They are isolated from the rest of the world, which means they dont get the pop culture references that other people would get, as they dont watch TV, read books other than Christian ones, see movies or listen to music. They dont know about current events, or how to react to people who are different from them.

[bbfreethinker]

I saw the title of this thread and decided to play Jeopardy with it -

"What is non-existent?" Answer - "Fundie Intelligence!"

My first reaction to "fundie intelligence" was "isn't that an oxymoron?"

[SpeakNow]

Intelligent design? Is that the only intelligence they believe in?

[fundies_like_zombies]

Ya see I was shocked that a blogger was reading walden? but then I realised this one isn't a raised fundie.

Why would anyone with any intelligence - which philosophy reading would make you think existed - buy into all things fundie.

If the kids were taught critical thinking skills they would run away and fast!!!!