"What They Saw at the Holocaust Museum"

[2xx1xy1JD]

I was googling Philip Gourevich because I was discussing his first book on Rwanda (a horrifying must-read), and came across this article:

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ ... useum.html

Deeply disturbing on so many levels.....

[Guest Anonymous]

Wow! People say some stupid shit at the Holocaust museum. Interesting article though.

[Kitty]

That is so fucked up.

Some of those people came within a breath of saying the Holocaust was justified. I remember a huge unit on it in tenth grade, and my (very Christian) English teacher warned against saying that it was a test of faith or a punishment.

BTW, said English teacher kept (and still keeps, as far as I know) crosses and other Christian things on her desk, in plain view. She's never been punished at all, let alone sued. No Christian in the US truly understands the horrors of the Holocaust because they have not experienced anything like it. Being sued because someone feels intimidated by your outward displays of faith is NOTHING like being rounded up and shot into ditches, or gassed to death, or having small freedoms like riding bicycles taken away, one by one, just because of your religion/ethnicity.

Comparing the Holocaust to abortion, imo, is ignorance at its finest. Fetuses are not killed just for being fetuses, like Jews were killed for being Jews (and converting to Christianity or being raised Christian didn't do a damn thing to save them, mind) or Roma were killed for being Roma, or GRSM were killed for not being heterosexual. Anyone who really thinks this needs to get their head out of their ass.

[Arete]

It says a lot about how desensitized we have become to images of violence, even over 15 years ago, when teenagers describe going through the Holocaust Museum as "cool".

[Rosie]

That is so fucked up.

Some of those people came within a breath of saying the Holocaust was justified. I remember a huge unit on it in tenth grade, and my (very Christian) English teacher warned against saying that it was a test of faith or a punishment.

BTW, said English teacher kept (and still keeps, as far as I know) crosses and other Christian things on her desk, in plain view. She's never been punished at all, let alone sued. No Christian in the US truly understands the horrors of the Holocaust because they have not experienced anything like it. Being sued because someone feels intimidated by your outward displays of faith is NOTHING like being rounded up and shot into ditches, or gassed to death, or having small freedoms like riding bicycles taken away, one by one, just because of your religion/ethnicity.

Comparing the Holocaust to abortion, imo, is ignorance at its finest. Fetuses are not killed just for being fetuses, like Jews were killed for being Jews (and converting to Christianity or being raised Christian didn't do a damn thing to save them, mind) or Roma were killed for being Roma, or GRSM were killed for not being heterosexual. Anyone who really thinks this needs to get their head out of their ass.

My son's elementary school principal did this as well. It bothered me, and IMO shows poor judgment, but there is nothing illegal about it. Nothing at all. That is why your English teacher has not been punished (she cannot be disciplined for exercising freedom of expression) or sued (she's done nothing illegal).

[Kitty]

It says a lot about how desensitized we have become to images of violence, even over 15 years ago, when teenagers describe going through the Holocaust Museum as "cool".

I went there almost 5 years ago, that was most definitely not 'cool.'

Especially the TV that's blocked off by 4.5 foot high walls to block off some really gory shit that happened to the victims of the Nazis' "experiments" (IIRC, it wasn't Mengele specifically). And that HUGE photo of burnt corpses that's the very first thing you see stepping out of the elevator. Anyone who's been there knows what I'm talking about.

If you have to describe it as "cool" there is something wrong with you, either you're a little Nazi punk or you REALLY suck at communication.

[Arete]

Completely in agreement with you there Kitty. I went over 10 years ago, and "cool" did not cross my mind at the time and hasn't since. :(

[emmiedahl]

The eighth graders made the most astute comments of the bunch.

"...It was a long time ago because, like, now we all get along together."

"It makes worries like what you wear today seem so stupid" reflects Rebecca Neel.

The Watertown kids have a busy schedule in Washington - the Smithsonian, Arlington National Cemetery, Ford's Theater, the Presidential monuments, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Announcing this itinerary, one of the students, Peter Vitello, remarks that the Holocaust museum seems "out of place in Washington."

"Yeah," Rebecca says, "everything else is patriotic, but this sort of subtly says war is stupid, so it's sort of subtly against the rest of Washington and also fits in. It was fun."

When the younger generation says things like the bolded, it gives me hope for the future. Maybe it will be that way in a few decades. Despite the rise of fundamentalism, there are a lot of young people who see sexism and racism as inherently illogical and foreign ideas.

I think "cool" is just a filler word. At least I hope so.

[breadprincess]

It says a lot about how desensitized we have become to images of violence, even over 15 years ago, when teenagers describe going through the Holocaust Museum as "cool".

Ugh. I went to the Michigan Holocaust Museum as part of a class trip when I was 14 and it was decidedly NOT cool. Informative, heart breaking, and something that left me deeply shaken? Yes. Afterwards they took us to a video game museum to help us feel less traumatized. I spent the entirety of the trip having a massive panic attack.

[Kitty]

My son's elementary school principal did this as well. It bothered me, and IMO shows poor judgment, but there is nothing illegal about it. Nothing at all. That is why your English teacher has not been punished (she cannot be disciplined for exercising freedom of expression) or sued (she's done nothing illegal).

It didn't bother me at all, but she was really open-minded and accepting anyway, so in her case I don't think anything of it.

But still, she's allowed to do it and it's perfectly legal, which is why the idiot who claimed people could get sued for keeping a picture of Jesus on their desk is, well, an idiot.

[sparkles]

I had planned to visit the Holocaust Museum when I was in DC a year ago, but as we got closer and closer to it, I actually started feeling like I was having a panic attack and just couldn't go inside. (I had a similar reaction at the Newseum's 9/11 exhibit.) The enormity of what happened--and continues to happen--hit me so hard on an emotional level that it affected me physically as well. As much as I study the history of that era, I can't and probably never will be able to comprehend the evil that men do--often in the name of god.

To hear the experience described as cool and awesome is sickening, although sadly, not surprising. And it's not limited to the US either. When my daughter came back from visiting a friend in Berlin, she reported with disgust that apparently the monuments at the Berlin Holocaust Museum are a very popular spot for hooking up.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

"Yeah," Rebecca says, "everything else is patriotic, but this sort of subtly says war is stupid, so it's sort of subtly against the rest of Washington and also fits in. It was fun."

I thought that particular quote was pretty good. Would that more people would think about where patriotism can sometimes go.

It amazes me that so many people think of abortion as the first thing "like" the Holocaust to happen after it, rather than jumping to Rwanda or the Khmer Rouge.

[emmiedahl]

I think it great that kids are going to see this, though. Some people (looks sideways at jericho) don't understand how their personal bigotry can lead to atrocities. I agree with gardenvarietycitizen that it is interesting that the women compared this to abortion. And not, say, the Japanese interment camps that were happening at the same time. Or My Lai. My son had a history teacher last year who was imo subversively anti-exceptionalism, and those students will never again see the US as the default Good Guy.

[lilah]

The eighth graders made the most astute comments of the bunch.

When the younger generation says things like the bolded, it gives me hope for the future. Maybe it will be that way in a few decades. Despite the rise of fundamentalism, there are a lot of young people who see sexism and racism as inherently illogical and foreign ideas.

I think "cool" is just a filler word. At least I hope so.

See I think it was disturbing, it sounded like the kid quoted seemed to believe that because it was in a museum there would be no more wars or genocide when in fact the Rwandan genocidal war and Bosnian ethnic cleansing was going on in 1995.

The part about the christian students believing the Jews deserved to be persecuted because they din't believe in Jesus was appalling. Did they also think the US slaves deserved to be slaves because they didn't believe in Jesus enough?

When I was in middle school I remember hearing how some upper classmates had gone and spent time giggling and laughing at the experience. I was so outraged. Now I think it was because they were so overwhelmed by the experience and that was how they dealt with it.

[mirele]

Back in the 1980s, a friend of mine was working for the State Department and went on a tour of Auschwitz. She wrote me a letter (with pen and paper! OMG) about the experience. One of the things she wrote I still remember: the tour guide dug up a tiny bit of ground and put it into my friend's hand. There were white specks and lumps in it--incompletely burnt bones from the crematoria. *shudder* Just thinking about it now...

[emmiedahl]

See I think it was disturbing, it sounded like the kid quoted seemed to believe that because it was in a museum there would be no more wars or genocide when in fact the Rwandan genocidal war and Bosnian ethnic cleansing was going on in 1995.

Both of which were before they were born, and thus more history to an eighth grader.

I know there are atrocities everywhere, even/especially in modern times, but all it takes to change that is a generation of people who think we should all just get along.

[lilah]

Most kids believe we should all get along. But whether they can actually make that happen is another question.

[emmiedahl]

Most kids believe we should all get along. But whether they can actually make that happen is another question.

Absolutely. But the belief that getting along regardless of gender/race/nationality/religion is the norm, and everything else is deviant and wrong, is the only frame of mind that will produce the reality.

All it takes to stop fighting is to stop.hating.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Both of which were before they were born, and thus more history to an eighth grader.

I know there are atrocities everywhere, even/especially in modern times, but all it takes to change that is a generation of people who think we should all just get along.

The article was written in 1995. The atrocities in Rwanda and Bosnia were (or should have been) current events to them.

Gourevich's book on Rwanda, "We Would Like to Inform that Tomorrow Will We Be Killed With Our Famillies", explores this idea that the "Never Again" message was being said in Washington AT THE VERY SAME TIME that government officials were doing everything possible to avoid intervening in Rwanda, including engaging in word play like calling what was happening "acts of genocide", because calling it a plain old genocide would have obligated them to act.

So yes, it's great that a student can have a vision of the world being a better place, but if we aren't aware of current problems then we can't be working to change them.

[GeoBQn]

I can only imagine things have gotten worse since the article was written. Independent tour guides give creationist versions of tours at places like natural history museums. Are there independent tours of the Holocaust museum that have similar alternate agendas?

[BoomerLynn]

I went there almost 5 years ago, that was most definitely not 'cool.'

Especially the TV that's blocked off by 4.5 foot high walls to block off some really gory shit that happened to the victims of the Nazis' "experiments" (IIRC, it wasn't Mengele specifically). And that HUGE photo of burnt corpses that's the very first thing you see stepping out of the elevator. Anyone who's been there knows what I'm talking about.

If you have to describe it as "cool" there is something wrong with you, either you're a little Nazi punk or you REALLY suck at communication.

Oh yes I remember those. I went there in high school and those images were horrific. I would have been in tears through the whole museum if I hadn't been exhausted and sick (air-sickness plus extremely early a.m. flight). How anyone could justify those horrors happening to someone because they didn't pray enough or didn't accept Jesus as the messiah is utterly disgusting.

[emmiedahl]

The article was written in 1995. The atrocities in Rwanda and Bosnia were (or should have been) current events to them.

Gourevich's book on Rwanda, "We Would Like to Inform that Tomorrow Will We Be Killed With Our Famillies", explores this idea that the "Never Again" message was being said in Washington AT THE VERY SAME TIME that government officials were doing everything possible to avoid intervening in Rwanda, including engaging in word play like calling what was happening "acts of genocide", because calling it a plain old genocide would have obligated them to act.

So yes, it's great that a student can have a vision of the world being a better place, but if we aren't aware of current problems then we can't be working to change them.

I did not realize the article was old!

Awareness is good, stopping the hate is also good. How much should we tell children? I don't know the answer; my 16 year old son came home from school crying about My Lai and that was okay. My 9 year old came home crying about the Whitman Massacre and I was concerned about the level of detail she had been given at a relatively young age. Regardless, the hippie idealist in me never stops hoping that maybe this generation will be the one to get it right.

How is "acts of genocide" different from "genocide"? Government doublespeak never fails to confuse me.

[Austin]

We have visited Washington, DC about five times as a family, and have been to the Holocaust Museum three times. If someone would ask my sons, to this day, what their favorite place to visit was, at least one of them will say the Holocaust Museum. Not because it is "cool", but because it had more impact on them than anything else they saw, and our kids tended to be impacted emotionally by history. One of my twins actually fainted there when he was about 10. When we went back two years later, however, it was at the top of his list of his places he wanted to visit.

I don't necessarily believe we should shelter our children (or ourselves) from the horror of the Holocaust. I believe the only way it will be remembered is if people are deeply impacted by it, on more than a "knowledge" level. Everyone is the best judge of themselves and their children, but I would highly recommend a visit there if you haven't been so far.

[2xx1xy1JD]

How much, how soon is a continuing discussion among our friends.

Growing up, I was part of a generation where we really weren't sheltered from information. By 9, I was reading Diary of Anne Frank (including the fairly graphic epilogue), and having my mom explain why some people had numbers tatooed on their arms. I also remember graphic descriptions of nuclear bombs.

To a certain extent, I think that kids can be more sheltered today. The schools are slightly more concerned about being "age appropriate". Kids also don't watch the same TV that the parents do. Growing up, we had one TV in the family room, and that's where we all watched the news. My kids, though, have their own channels playing kids' shows 24/7. I remember how my oldest child was a toddler on 9/11, and we tried to watch the coverage when she was in another room. It was such an all-consuming event that she soon found out about it, though. I then simply assumed that my younger kids - born shortly after 9/11 - knew about it as well, from the media and from the fact that we had books about it around the house. I was actually shocked when we took the kids to New York 18 months ago, mentioned that we were going to see the 9/11 memorial at Ground Zero, and had the younger ones respond with "what's that?". I noticed they were deeply affected by the "Heroes of the 88th floor" documentary on TLC around the 10th anniversary, which was when they really began to understand the story in detail.

[Rachel333]

I visited a Holocaust museum last month (it was actually a little museum dedicated to Jewish history, but a large part of it was about the Holocaust). It was very emotionally draining, but I'm glad I went. I got to meet an Auschwitz survivor and hear her tell her story. I noticed several people fighting back tears while she was talking.

I can't imagine calling a Holocaust museum "cool", but I also think that could just be teenagers not really knowing how to express themselves.