Article by Former Hasidic Woman

[Gizmola]

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/105719/escaping-from-hasidism-online

Very interesting article of a woman who left Hasidic Judaism. This quote caught my eye and made me think of the J'Slaves:

I was not raised to think. I knew what I needed to know: about tznius and that modesty is, or should be, my most important preoccupation. I knew that striving to have seven or 10 or a dozen children and being a good and pious homemaker is the pinnacle of achievement for a woman, the thing I was brought into this world to accomplish. Secular education was frowned upon. More than frowned upon: Being educated, oifgeklert, was a shame, a blight on the family. There was the very bare minimum of secular education, of course: reading and writing and elementary math. But even that was an afterthought. Fear of God, being a good girl, and growing up a pious Hasidic woman was the meat and potatoes of our education.

She writes, further on:

What I read online shocked me, but it also clung to me. It wasn’t right that I should keep having children, that I should never go to college, that I should decide who my son should marry upon his 18th birthday. “Because we have to†suddenly rang hollow, because what we have to do is live our 70 years of life with a few messy mistakes and the lessons learned and in the process figure out who we are and who we want to be.

Now, I cannot comment on the Hasidic community and whether her experience was representative or not. But I found it interesting nevertheless.

[Sumeri]

Thanks for posting this. I'd love to read more about her new life.

[Sweetpea1]

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/105719/escaping-from-hasidism-online

Very interesting article of a woman who left Hasidic Judaism. This quote caught my eye and made me think of the J'Slaves:

She writes, further on:

Now, I cannot comment on the Hasidic community and whether her experience was representative or not. But I found it interesting nevertheless.

She is right on the mark on the bolded statement.

[Wandering]

This article really resonated with me. I have a similar story in regards to this woman. I was raised in a very conservative fundie-light family and eventually after meeting some really fundie friends, I started to fall into it more. It was because of the internet and sites like FJ and nolongerquivering and Under Much Grace that the seeds of critical thinking were planted for me. In ultra-religious communities we're taught not to think. Not to question. Critical thinking is wrong. Access to the Internet changes those ideals because knowledge is there for everyone to get at anytime. That's why sites like this are so important. They give others who wouldn't have had the chance to see the other side.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think I've mentioned before that I was a regular poster on imamother.com for years. Now I'm wondering if I may have had online conversations with the author.

For all the time spent/wasted online and the frequent head-banging that I did, it was pretty amazing to see women from different strands of Orthodoxy come together and hash things out, since many of us would never have met in the real world. I remember being floored by one PM that I got from someone who basically said, "Wow, you're a lawyer? I've never met a Jewish woman with a job like that." My kids are used to seeing me talk with all of the other Jewish mommy lawyers at their school or at synagogue, to the point that they once asked, "can a man become a lawyer too?".

Topics such as "what is Hasidic life like" came up, along with "why do you do X?" I was frankly shocked to discover that for many of the more extreme/controversial practices, the women were unable to come up with anything other than "this is what is done in our community". As one Satmar cyber-friend explained, girls in her community didn't really ask "why?", and they weren't taught from the original religious texts. She further explained that the customs of the community were treated as equivalent to actual Jewish law. Furthermore, doing anything to make yourself stick out was frowned upon, leading to extreme conformity. As long as they stayed within the community and its rules, it would be a source of love and support. The idea of life outside of it wasn't something that they were prepared to contemplate. I remember a surreal conversation where I suggested that a baby carrier would solve the problem of taking a baby into a small, crowded store without room for a stroller, and being told that babywearing "wasn't done". Perhaps the fact that it was an Orthodox website made this conversations more pointed and lively - I imagine that many of these women would not have jumped into atheist websites or those specifically attacking the Hasidic lifestyle, but were comfortable with a website exclusively for Orthodox women. The site wasn't all religious debates - much of it was about more mundane topics like baby naming, teething, recipes, pregnancy, etc. In that way, you actually had some bonding and friendships between different groups developed (the Satmar woman, for example, bonded with some of us Modern Orthodox women because we had a shared experience of infertility/multiple miscarriage]. At the same time, the women didn't really hold back - since everyone was Orthodox, there would be a VERY strong insistence that certain customs had nothing to do with mainstream Jewish law.

[SisiL78]

Hasidim is comprised of a very wide spectrum of beliefs and practices. I've seen the same kind of Hasids who live on the same block practice a very different type of home life.

I know some families that wouldn't dream of not sending their kids to college and send their kids to the same Yeshiva schools that produce kids who will only do religious study after they graduate.

Case in point, I was visiting an arts festival and one of the women selling her art was the daughter of black hat and wig wearing parents. She is an artist and majored in dance (she dances in public in front of mixed crowds, frowned upon in Hasidism). She was also wearing pants. Her bewigged mother and long bearded dad were there with her helping her set up her booth. So, here was one extreme. On the other are girls who get married at a shockingly young age and are homemakers. Even within one family you get a mixture of the above.

I honestly think that overall the Hasidism are more practical and strive to give their kids a decent education. Some girls go to college and don't graduate after obtaining their MRS degree, others get PhDs while caring for 5 children.

Overall, Jews are a real mixed bag. I think that, unlike the Christian Fundies, we don't have as much conformity. That being said, in places like Crown Heights and other religious communities where EVERYONE you know is a Hasid there can be a very repressive and xenophobic outlook on life. Usually Jews end up in dense urban areas so you also have your nosy neighbors keeping track of your life and you start to try being extra pious. And there's a "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude except with keeping kosher and dressing modestly and getting your kids married off. This eventually ends up as a really restrictive lifestyle for your kids and yourself.

I'm hoping the arranged marriage is much rarer. Dating is definitely arranged (although many young couples find their spouses via the internet and friends now too), and there are certain expectations. Considering that the sexes are separated in school and social activities I think people jump into marriage because suddenly they are 'alone' with a person of the opposite sex and its exciting and that excitement translates to them as being love.

[heinz57]

Hasidim is comprised of a very wide spectrum of beliefs and practices. I've seen the same kind of Hasids who live on the same block practice a very different type of home life.

I know some families that wouldn't dream of not sending their kids to college and send their kids to the same Yeshiva schools that produce kids who will only do religious study after they graduate.

Case in point, I was visiting an arts festival and one of the women selling her art was the daughter of black hat and wig wearing parents. She is an artist and majored in dance (she dances in public in front of mixed crowds, frowned upon in Hasidism). She was also wearing pants. Her bewigged mother and long bearded dad were there with her helping her set up her booth. So, here was one extreme. On the other are girls who get married at a shockingly young age and are homemakers. Even within one family you get a mixture of the above.

... .

How do you know they were Hassidim and not regular Orthodox? I honestly don't know how to spot the difference (unless there's an obvious giveaway, like peyos or a fur hat)...

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I have to admit I'm a lurker on imamother.com for years (as a foreign heathen I obviously can't qualify for membership) but now I have to wonder if I've read your posts!

I will say that on that site filled with orthodox women (as per the rules) when I just want to tear my hair out over the "are you nuts????" usually there are other voices of reason (FROM the community!) saying something similar to what I would have, so yeah, it's a variety of voices, even as restricted as it can be.

Surely if they know I'm reading they'd be horrified but - although I have no way to tell them - I think it's a net plus that I and others like me can read. People nerdily interested enough to try to read such a forum are wanting the nuance and detail it offers.

(Yes, I am a nerd.)

[salsa]

Hasidim is comprised of a very wide spectrum of beliefs and practices. I've seen the same kind of Hasids who live on the same block practice a very different type of home life.

I know some families that wouldn't dream of not sending their kids to college and send their kids to the same Yeshiva schools that produce kids who will only do religious study after they graduate.

Case in point, I was visiting an arts festival and one of the women selling her art was the daughter of black hat and wig wearing parents. She is an artist and majored in dance (she dances in public in front of mixed crowds, frowned upon in Hasidism). She was also wearing pants. Her bewigged mother and long bearded dad were there with her helping her set up her booth. So, here was one extreme. On the other are girls who get married at a shockingly young age and are homemakers. Even within one family you get a mixture of the above.

I honestly think that overall the Hasidism are more practical and strive to give their kids a decent education. Some girls go to college and don't graduate after obtaining their MRS degree, others get PhDs while caring for 5 children.

Overall, Jews are a real mixed bag. I think that, unlike the Christian Fundies, we don't have as much conformity. That being said, in places like Crown Heights and other religious communities where EVERYONE you know is a Hasid there can be a very repressive and xenophobic outlook on life. Usually Jews end up in dense urban areas so you also have your nosy neighbors keeping track of your life and you start to try being extra pious. And there's a "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude except with keeping kosher and dressing modestly and getting your kids married off. This eventually ends up as a really restrictive lifestyle for your kids and yourself.

I'm hoping the arranged marriage is much rarer. Dating is definitely arranged (although many young couples find their spouses via the internet and friends now too), and there are certain expectations. Considering that the sexes are separated in school and social activities I think people jump into marriage because suddenly they are 'alone' with a person of the opposite sex and its exciting and that excitement translates to them as being love.

My knowledge of Hasidic Jews is via Chaim Potok and his wonderful novels. Each portrays a different sort of family and a main character who doesn't seem to consider whether he/she DESIRES to be Chasidic (or even Jewish, for that matter) but one who strives to express him/ herself within that community that in many ways is so very loving. I see them (yes, it is fiction) as stories about learning to honor one's heritage while also carving one's own path.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I have to say though too as someone from a background that has had arranged dating I don't see it as completely evil, either. If it sticks to arranged dating and the couple has the final say, I don't have a problem with it, as long as in parallel it's permitted for people who find a spouse via other means to go that route too.

That's not to deny the various issues in modern implementations of the shidduch system, of course.

But honestly? I have to wonder at some of the new radical culture "courting!!!" Christian fundies, so many of them are adamant about not dating and the whole "guy applies to the girl's parents" thing and yet do NOT have any sort of arranged matchmaking services to start the system off, how can that work? I mean, they don't have matchmakers, they can't do an equivalent of "omiai" (the Japanese arranged dating where you get applicants with resume and photo and agree to a date or not) just... how does it start?

(Poor Sarah...)

[pimpom]

"The Internet can’t be banned, like other mediums of secular influence, despite attempts by rabbis to do so. It has become a necessary part of life and of earning a living.

With the Internet, certain Hasidic communities will have to find a better way to educate their youth than through enforced ignorance. A belief system that is so easily refuted and based on so much misinformation cannot withstand Wikipedia and Google. Times are changing for a community that has been fighting time. In the age of the Internet, the Hasidism that I grew up in, and married in, and had children in, now belongs to the past."

QFT!

[SisiL78]

How do you know they were Hassidim and not regular Orthodox? I honestly don't know how to spot the difference (unless there's an obvious giveaway, like peyos or a fur hat)...

In this case I was with friends who are their neighbors (that's how I knew she was also a dancer etc...) But, its hard. Mainly because there are so many different flavors of Hasidim and of Orthodox. I would say that men are easier to distinguish. Hasidic men tend to have a uniform of white shirt and black pants with their tzitzit dangling from their waistbands. THey also tend to have very long beards. There are the more worldly Hasidim who don't have curly peyos or fur hats and instead have big sideburns and black hats with yarmulkes for weekday wear. I think you can interchange Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox with Hasidim in many cases, but then there is the Modern Orthodox who might even go as far as eating in non-kosher restaurants and not covering their hair all of the time. Leave it to Jews to be so all over the place. I'm proud of our lack of uniformity :-)

Women are harder to distinguish, usually, between sects. Even women who usually wear wigs will also sport a snood or headscarf or hat. And they'll buy their clothes at special orthodox shops but they also shop at TJMaxx and Macys and thrift stores just as often.

Overall Hasidic Jews are just ultra observant Orthodox Jews. They can be isolationist Haredi types or the more open minded and friendly Chabad Lubavitch (the kind I'm more familiar with). There are those that will (in Israel) throw rocks at you if you wear a t-shirt, and others who will be warm and friendly to you and invite you to dinner even if you're wearing a tube top. I'd prefer if we Jews did away with labels altogether. I've joined an egalitarian synagogue that has attracted a few guys who would look Hasidic to an outside observer and their be-wigged wives. They seem to have no problem worshiping with pants wearing women and their unbearded husbands. But, this is unfortunately a rarity and if I had one hope for my people it would be that we'd stop segregating our beliefs and just all get along...

[SisiL78]

I have to say though too as someone from a background that has had arranged dating I don't see it as completely evil, either. If it sticks to arranged dating and the couple has the final say, I don't have a problem with it, as long as in parallel it's permitted for people who find a spouse via other means to go that route too.

That's not to deny the various issues in modern implementations of the shidduch system, of course.

But honestly? I have to wonder at some of the new radical culture "courting!!!" Christian fundies, so many of them are adamant about not dating and the whole "guy applies to the girl's parents" thing and yet do NOT have any sort of arranged matchmaking services to start the system off, how can that work? I mean, they don't have matchmakers, they can't do an equivalent of "omiai" (the Japanese arranged dating where you get applicants with resume and photo and agree to a date or not) just... how does it start?

(Poor Sarah...)

I thought that sites like Christianmingle and stuff were for the super fundy sect but I've since found out that it isn't. There are even Jewish dating sites for those who are turned off by the lack of religious people on jdate (frumster is the one that comes to mind). Its so easy to set up a site like that so you'd think that Gothard or VF would have gotten on the bandwagon so that they could make a few bucks at that. Then again, this could take parents out of the equation.... My feeling is that parents should guide their kids and raise any concerns if they have serious ones. But, the idea of choosing their mate seems so destined for misery that I cannot believe it still exists in this day and age.

[heinz57]

I thought that sites like Christianmingle and stuff were for the super fundy sect but I've since found out that it isn't. There are even Jewish dating sites for those who are turned off by the lack of religious people on jdate (frumster is the one that comes to mind). Its so easy to set up a site like that so you'd think that Gothard or VF would have gotten on the bandwagon so that they could make a few bucks at that. Then again, this could take parents out of the equation.... My feeling is that parents should guide their kids and raise any concerns if they have serious ones. But, the idea of choosing their mate seems so destined for misery that I cannot believe it still exists in this day and age.

They could go for something sawyouatsinai.com style, which apparently is a dating site Orthodox-style: there is still a shadchan that filters the shidduch resumes and makes arrangements.

Or they could go all out and make a dating site where only fathers can subscribe - once the dads make the match the kids are informed that from now on they'll be courting!

[clibbyjo]

I read "Just call me Chaviva" (she is an Orthodox convert) and she is recently divorced and trying her hand at some kind of on-line Jewish(Just Orthodox? I don;t know) dating site as she has had a few posts about it. She has not had much luck yet I gather. I don't remember the name of the site she is using.

[heinz57]

I read "Just call me Chaviva" (she is an Orthodox convert) and she is recently divorced and trying her hand at some kind of on-line Jewish(Just Orthodox? I don;t know) dating site as she has had a few posts about it. She has not had much luck yet I gather. I don't remember the name of the site she is using.

I read her too. She was on Frumster and Saw You At Sinai. Don't know if she's still doing that though, since in the latest installment she decided to move to Israel.

ETA as far as I know both those sites are Orthodox, and SYAS uses the traditional matchmaking system (see my post above)