Fundies and character

[fundies_like_zombies]

Something i have noticed on some fundie blogs is where they kinda pick at their character and find all these terrible flaws in themselves.

Are they trying to get sympathey or do you think they really see these things like being bossy as a major flaw that they have to fix?

I mean i gossip and whine but don't see myself as like a completely flawed person. Just that everyone has good and bad sides to them.

It always seems to me that fundies take an extreme view on averything!

[alba]

Judging by what I've read of how fundies homeschool their kids, I think that, yes, they seem them as flaws to be fixed. The general idea in Christianity is that everyone sins, but everyone should also try to acknowledge their sins and avoid them. I do think fundies take this to a far greater extreme than mainstream Christians, though.

As any aspiring writer knows, you should give your characters real, believable flaws; it makes them more interesting and more relateable. Maybe fundies just want to be boring.

[margiebargie]

Fundies only focus on certain "flaws" that I wouldn't even regard as flaws. For example, not being cheerful enough or flashing a bit of ankle. They completely ignore things that I consider very serious character flaws, such as being incurious sheeple or meddling in the private decisions of others or arrogantly proclaiming their delusions as fact without a shred of evidence and demanding that others see it their way.

Fundies are strange creatures indeed.

[debrand]

Back when I was going to a Catholic Church, I owned a blog devoted mainly to Catholicism. A young Calvinist visited my site to politely debate me about the role of Mary in the Catholic Church. This was a homeschooled, isolated young man so he didn't have much opportunity to anything really evil. In one of his comments he referred to himself as the worst among sinners. That bit of hyperbole seemed the opposite of modest. After all, being the worst among sinners is a pretty big accomplishment. It is wrong to reduce some atrocities, like genocide and rape to the level of being annoyed at your sister or accidentally noticing the neighbor is hot.

[notsocommon]

It really is another form of 'holier than thou' Look at me, I have flaws!!! But I am working on them and Jeebus still loves me anyway!!

[2xx1xy1JD]

In theory, I like the idea of always striving to work on yourself.

In practice, it seems a bit pointless if it isn't grounded in something real. IOW, "I'm the worst of the sinners" comes across as just a rote line, while something like "I really lost it this morning with the kids, and when I remember the look on their faces, I feel so ashamed. I'll have to apologize to them, and really work on making sure that I make some changes to my parenting and our morning routine so that it doesn't happen again", or "I've been so focused on my own stuff that it didn't occur to me to help out family X down the street even through I know that the mom is still going through chemotherapy. I'll apologize, find out the best night to send over a casserole and try to make some time to have a coffee if she wants to talk., leads to real change.

[xDreamerx]

Back when I was going to a Catholic Church, I owned a blog devoted mainly to Catholicism. A young Calvinist visited my site to politely debate me about the role of Mary in the Catholic Church. This was a homeschooled, isolated young man so he didn't have much opportunity to anything really evil. In one of his comments he referred to himself as the worst among sinners. That bit of hyperbole seemed the opposite of modest. After all, being the worst among sinners is a pretty big accomplishment. It is wrong to reduce some atrocities, like genocide and rape to the level of being annoyed at your sister or accidentally noticing the neighbor is hot.

QFT. I hate when people make the statement that all sins are the same. I remember on the View one time Hasslebeck (who could be an entirely separate topic by herself) said that she thinks all sinners were equal, no matter the sin and that she viewed herself and Hitler to be the same. It's just so asinine.

I think the 'character' speaks to the sense of deprivation that they all seem to have. But I think they miss the point. They don't seem to strive to be more loving or compassionate to be closer to God. Instead they focus on a lot of pointless things as if its a check list to being a good person. I think it has an almost Puritanical feeling.

[alba]

QFT. I hate when people make the statement that all sins are the same. I remember on the View one time Hasslebeck (who could be an entirely separate topic by herself) said that she thinks all sinners were equal, no matter the sin and that she viewed herself and Hitler to be the same. It's just so asinine.

I think the 'character' speaks to the sense of deprivation that they all seem to have. But I think they miss the point. They don't seem to strive to be more loving or compassionate to be closer to God. Instead they focus on a lot of pointless things as if its a check list to being a good person. I think it has an almost Puritanical feeling.

These are both good points. To equate "normal" sins with genocide is, frankly, insulting to survivors and families of those who have experienced genocide.

They do seem to focus a lot on the negatives rather than the positives, don't they? It's "I'm a bad person because I snapped at my sister this morning" more often than "I should try to be more patient with my sister".

[uber frau]

I grew up Calvinist and convincing ppl of their total depravity seemed to be the sole purpose of the preaching. The fact that we were all dirty, rotten sinners was something we were never, ever allowed to forget. I remember hearing about the shit hitting the fan when the school board (fundy school) found out about student teachers having to learn about the concept of self-esteem. (The pesky government insisted on all teachers having real qualifications from a real university).

We were taught that Baptists were going to hell, because they believed in having enough of a free will to make a choice to accept God. Since the act of making a choice is a 'work', they obviously rejected the doctrine of grace (rather than works) which meant they didn't qualify as Christian. This even applied to the Lutherans and their single predestination(because rejecting God is also a work, apparently) and let's not even get start on the Catholics. It was essential to believe that you were such a worthless piece of crap that you weren't even capable of accepting or rejecting God. Even the good bits about yourself are only possible because of God working through you.

It has taken a lolly shop of anti-depressants and literally years of intensive therapy to start to move out of the habit of self condemnation.

[Conuly]

Is that really what Calvinists believe? What a cheery bunch of people they must be! :shock:

[2xx1xy1JD]

Exactly. There is absolutely no real work on one's character or sense of ethics in the "we're all horrible sinners" approach.

To me, it isn't humble at all for an ordinary person to say that they are as bad as Hitler - it just minimizes genuine crimes against humanity, and fails to distinguish between the victims and victimizers. In other words, it's as offensive as hell.

I wouldn't want my kids to think that they are so bad that there's no point in striving to do better.

You can build character in positive ways. My kids' nursery school had a "good deed tree", where the leaves were "good deed notes" that the students got from their parents. Each day when you dropped off your child, there was a stack of green post-its and some pencils, and you'd write "X helped to cheer up her baby brother" or "Y helped mommy with the cooking", or my favorite, "Z got up, picked out her own clothes, got dressed on her own and even put on her shoes without any help at all from mommy" (which I used to explain why my fiercely independent child was wearing a striped winter sweater with polka dot shorts and had her shoes on the wrong feet). It was a simple but brilliant idea, since it actually forced us as parents to consciously look for the good in our children, and the kids got tons of positive reinforcement and would start looking for opportunities to be helpful and get these notes.

[uber frau]

Is that really what Calvinists believe? What a cheery bunch of people they must be! :shock:

There might be some cheery Calvinists out there, but our mob sure weren't. They call them the frozen Chosen for a reason.

[Conuly]

Soooooo grateful I grew up atheist, then! Sheesh. Did Calvin suffer from clinical depression or some such?

my favorite, "Z got up, picked out her own clothes, got dressed on her own and even put on her shoes without any help at all from mommy" (which I used to explain why my fiercely independent child was wearing a striped winter sweater with polka dot shorts and had her shoes on the wrong feet).

You know, they sell buttons you can put on a kid's shirt (you know, pins? badges?) that say "I dressed myself!!!" for just that reason. It's supposed to be to encourage your child, but I don't think there's a grown-up alive who doesn't know the real reason.

[Mela99]

That's such a cute idea. Mullet rambled in her book about "constantly praising" the kids for washing dishes or making dinner, but I never hear anything about praise for just being a good kid. Isn't that where you should start?

[contrary]

LOL @ "I dressed myself" buttons.

I finally gave up on the explanations of tutu + bathing suit + galoshes. I imagine it's pretty clear who chose that outfit.

and it wasn't me.

[shesinsane]

"Character" is a frequently used word in ATI, and it's more important than almost anything else, especially knowledge. To many fundies, it's more important to raise a child with Christian character qualities than a child that is wise and self sufficient. Doesn't matter that the 9 year old girl can't read, she gets up every morning and dresses and feeds her littler siblings. Her character is in achievement in parenting, her intellect is unimportant.

[margiebargie]

LOL @ "I dressed myself" buttons.

I finally gave up on the explanations of tutu + bathing suit + galoshes. I imagine it's pretty clear who chose that outfit.

and it wasn't me.

Hahahaha. Mine went to school in a sparkley turquoise top, red and white striped pants, and purple shoes.

[contrary]

awesome. I figure that anyone dealing with young children is pretty keen on who has chosen her own outfits.

[Conuly]

I finally gave up on the explanations of tutu + bathing suit + galoshes. I imagine it's pretty clear who chose that outfit.

and it wasn't me.

Lies, all lies! You know you'd wear that if you could :P

"Character" is a frequently used word in ATI, and it's more important than almost anything else, especially knowledge. To many fundies, it's more important to raise a child with Christian character qualities than a child that is wise and self sufficient. Doesn't matter that the 9 year old girl can't read, she gets up every morning and dresses and feeds her littler siblings. Her character is in achievement in parenting, her intellect is unimportant.

To a small extent, character in my estimation is paramount. I'd rather raise a happy child, no matter how stupid, who is kind and generous than a grasping and callous misanthropic robber baron, happy or otherwise. I think most of us want to have reasonably moral kids and neighbors.

But by and large their actions hardly scream "great character" to me - and by "their actions" I mean "what they feel free to boast about and describe in their own writings" so really, I don't think I'm misjudging much.

[shesinsane]

Lies, all lies! You know you'd wear that if you could :P

To a small extent, character in my estimation is paramount. I'd rather raise a happy child, no matter how stupid, who is kind and generous than a grasping and callous misanthropic robber baron, happy or otherwise. I think most of us want to have reasonably moral kids and neighbors.

But by and large their actions hardly scream "great character" to me - and by "their actions" I mean "what they feel free to boast about and describe in their own writings" so really, I don't think I'm misjudging much.

I agree, I didn't mean to minimalize the important of being a good person. I just meant that having good, Christian character is no substitute for the ability to balance your checkbook.

[JaChelle Sugar]

Fuck Calvinism. That is all.

[ems]

In theory, I like the idea of always striving to work on yourself.

In practice, it seems a bit pointless if it isn't grounded in something real. IOW, "I'm the worst of the sinners" comes across as just a rote line, while something like "I really lost it this morning with the kids, and when I remember the look on their faces, I feel so ashamed. I'll have to apologize to them, and really work on making sure that I make some changes to my parenting and our morning routine so that it doesn't happen again", or "I've been so focused on my own stuff that it didn't occur to me to help out family X down the street even through I know that the mom is still going through chemotherapy. I'll apologize, find out the best night to send over a casserole and try to make some time to have a coffee if she wants to talk., leads to real change.

This.

And I agree with people who are saying that for fundies, it's like they have to say they're this terrible horrible sinner, even if their biggest sin is not being "cheerful" or grateful or something. To not do so would be...a terrible horrible sin.

[Conuly]

I just meant that having good, Christian character is no substitute for the ability to balance your checkbook.

And really, there's enough time in your kid's life to teach them both.

[Sobeknofret]

(I used to be a more regular poster, but had to cut back just as the board moved from Yuku, if that tells you how long it's been...)

Not one of these men or women has enough true character to fill a thimble. Doug Phillips is a shameful creature; when I saw those pictures from his Normandy Busby Berkley show and saw that he and his "men" were wearing the 101'st Airborne insignia I nearly threw up. My father was Airborne and Special Forces and he risked his life to protect and serve the people of this country. Doug Phillips doesn't have the courage to do it himself or to encourage his sons and the young men of Vision Forum/BCC to serve, yet thinks he has the right to wear that insignia, earned by it's rightful wearers by blood and sacrifice? Words cannot even come close to expressing my disgust and anger at that. He's worse than a little kid: he should KNOW better than to do that kind of thing. But all that matters is his selfishness.

Peter Bradrick? A man of character would sacrifice himself and his desires for the safety of his wife and family. Bradrick can't even think about her without seeing breeding stock, and endangering her life so he can have more "arrows." The Bradrick Network is a contemptible sham, a selfish brat stomping his feet and insisting that he's important. I've met bottles of beer with more character than Peter Bradrick.

Jennie Chancey's lack of character shows up loud and clear in that nonsense about that Kenyan clothing scheme of hers, and her writings on LAF. Her support for repealing women's suffrage yet going to the polls herself speaks volumes about her character.

Michael Pearl? 'Nuff said.

[emmiedahl]

Back when I was going to a Catholic Church, I owned a blog devoted mainly to Catholicism. A young Calvinist visited my site to politely debate me about the role of Mary in the Catholic Church. This was a homeschooled, isolated young man so he didn't have much opportunity to anything really evil. In one of his comments he referred to himself as the worst among sinners. That bit of hyperbole seemed the opposite of modest. After all, being the worst among sinners is a pretty big accomplishment. It is wrong to reduce some atrocities, like genocide and rape to the level of being annoyed at your sister or accidentally noticing the neighbor is hot.

I think this is a way of pretending that they hold themselves to higher standards than themselves.

You know, like that annoying girl in Calculus who makes a big deal of crying because she only got 96% on a test and whining about how she just has to have 100%!!!