D. Savage pisses off HS kids, gets called a Christian basher

[longskirtlotsakids]

I wonder if he calls his own son a pansy ass. I can't imagine the hurt a boy would feel if his father called him a pansy.

Isn't the term pansy meant to denote a male of non-masculine bent? It's really, really sick that he chose that particular insult. Homosexual or no, Savage just did a really good job of perpetuating hatred based on traditional gender roles. He should have just leapt the fence and called the boy a pussy faggot.

[ceg045]

fist time anal sex

At the risk of sounding like a 14 year old boy in an otherwise serious thread: *giggle* Awesome typo. :clap:

[longskirtlotsakids]

At the risk of sounding like a 14 year old boy in an otherwise serious thread: *giggle* Awesome typo. :clap:

Aw geez, fer cryin out loud. Yes, it was supposed to be first time anal sex.

What a riffle.

[geniebelle6901]

Isn't journalism that thing where you're supposed to be seeking to expose the truth?

Perhaps they were seeking careers in Christian publishing or something like that?

[geniebelle6901]

So these Christians are outraged enough at naughty words to walk out but when it comes to bigots using their own holy book to justify the kind of hatred and discrimination that their savior preached against- nothing doin'?

At least that's the vibe I got from watching the video. If I had been there in person I might have thought different, IDK. About the discrimination part that Jesus supposedly preached about, I think about the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:9-37 and the judge not lest ye be judged verses from Matthew 7: 1-7. But I guess that's cherry picking on my part, which I have already stated that I'm against. Anyway, I see nothing Christ-like about bullying GLBTs. But that's just me.

[lilwriter85]

Dan Savage was talking to high school KIDS, not adults, so he gets no free pass from me. In fact, I'm glad those kids walked away from his verbal abuse. Why should they have to sit through something like that? Instead of bashing Christians, maybe Savage could provide examples of prominent Christians who are gay-friendly or who have issued anti-bullying statements?

Savage could do that. Tammy Faye Bakker Messner was very gay friendly and she would have supported anti-bullying movements. There are Episcopal leaders who are gay friendly and they are gay Episcopal bishops.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

3) From what I have read, he did specifically insult the Bible and the Christian religion. Not cool. If he had talked about the shit in the Kuran heads would have rolled.

Please, not this bullshit. It gets rolled out a lot when people criticize Christianity, and it's a red herring. We don't live in a country where the Koran is used to justify the bullying of gay kids or where politicians thump the Koran as an excuse to legislate against women's rights. We DO live in a country where the Bible is used for these purposes. That DOES deserve insult, whether you are talking to kids or adults.

I used to like him a lot but he has been toeing the line for me. Most recently it was a column aimed towards a virginal 17 year old that was specifically towards fist time anal sex. I get that gay teens need help too, but geez. It was extremely explicit, and the fact it was geared to a minor really squicked me out.

Would it have squicked you out as much if it was a straight 17-y/o male getting advice about vaginal sex? Teens have sex. Gay teens have gay sex. I'd rather help the kid to have safe sex, regardless of orientation, then try to pretend like a 17-y/o is too young to receive explicit instructions.

[debrand]

Savage could do that. Tammy Faye Bakker Messner was very gay friendly and she would have supported anti-bullying movements. There are Episcopal leaders who are gay friendly and they are gay Episcopal bishops.

The type of Christians who believe that it is okay to discriminate against others would not accept Bakker as a role model. She is too unique with her style or views.

Although I don't think that bullying kids to stop bullying is effective or right, It isn't wrong to point out that their behavior is cowardly and shows bigotry. It would have been better if he had expressed open pity that the students are so locked into the thought that homosexual is evil, that they are frightened to hear an alternate view. He could have pointed out that Jesus knew that he was going to be hit, beaten and killed for his beliefs but he still was willing to debate with his future accusers. He didn't run from a discussion. I would have pointed out that by leaving the discussion , they were admitting that they believed Jesus taught not love but hate.

Savage fed into the misconception that Christians are being persecuted in America. It would have been better to point out that they were being poor witnesses for their faith.

edited to reword and add that pointing out that certain behaviors are wrong is not the same as calling a person names.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Would it have squicked you out as much if it was a straight 17-y/o male getting advice about vaginal sex? Teens have sex. Gay teens have gay sex. I'd rather help the kid to have safe sex, regardless of orientation, then try to pretend like a 17-y/o is too young to receive explicit instructions.

I agree with OnceModestTwiceShy. Gay 17-year-olds have sex just like straight ones do. And maybe they don't know anyone else IRL who can answer their questions. It's better that a kid is informed about what they're going to be doing anyways.

[theologygeek]

No, they don't. Nothing a person says, no matter how vile, justifes physical violence.

I have no problem slapping an adult who bullies a child.

[theologygeek]

Isn't the term pansy meant to denote a male of non-masculine bent? It's really, really sick that he chose that particular insult. Homosexual or no, Savage just did a really good job of perpetuating hatred based on traditional gender roles. He should have just leapt the fence and called the boy a pussy faggot.

Yes, that's what the word can mean. He should know better than to use that word on children. From Websters: Slang: Disparaging and Offensive .

a.male homosexual.

b.a weak, effeminate, and often cowardly man.

[theologygeek]

Dan Savage was talking to high school KIDS, not adults, so he gets no free pass from me. In fact, I'm glad those kids walked away from his verbal abuse. Why should they have to sit through something like that? Instead of bashing Christians, maybe Savage could provide examples of prominent Christians who are gay-friendly or who have issued anti-bullying statements?

I agree. Also, if he wanted to bring the bible into his speech, he could have made a positive impression by causing the children to think. He could have asked them why there is no agenda to ban tattoos, ban clothing of linen blends, ban certain shapes of beards and hair styles. All are in the same book that the quotes on homosexuality are. He could have said that Jesus fulfilled the laws of the OT. He could have also said that homosexuality is only mentioned once in the NT, and Paul made up that word in Corinthians. No one can say exactly what it means. The word for homosexuality during that time was paiderasste. Paul didn't use it. He used the word arsenokoitai which supposedly translates into man and bed. The most schooled theologians can't even say for sure what it means or what Paul was referring to. Savage has a grudge and a bone to pick. He didn't want to educate. He wanted to pick a fight.

[kamcho_papio]

Is there a full version of the speech online? It's pretty clear that clip is only an excerpt, so I wonder how Savage arrived at his point, rhetorically. Also, one girl left as soon as he said, "bible," and pre-"bullshit" so I would say this is less about what Savage said and possibly about the audience themselves.

I don't see a problem with having Savage keynote a journalistic conference--he has an extremely popular syndicated columnist, has adapted well to the digital explosion and multimedia formats, is considered socially relevant by many. Just because he doesn't have the career of a Pulitzer winner doesn't mean he's a poor choice. At least teens have probably heard of him.

[brigid]

I just want to share a link to an interesting take on this incident over at Daily Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/2 ... sexuality-

Be sure to check out the comments, some of them are very interesting/informative.

[Boogalou]

I just want to share a link to an interesting take on this incident over at Daily Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/2 ... sexuality-

Be sure to check out the comments, some of them are very interesting/informative.

I don't find it interesting. Just another person trying to define the one true version of Christianity.

[valsa]

I agree. Also, if he wanted to bring the bible into his speech, he could have made a positive impression by causing the children to think. He could have asked them why there is no agenda to ban tattoos, ban clothing of linen blends, ban certain shapes of beards and hair styles. All are in the same book that the quotes on homosexuality are. He could have said that Jesus fulfilled the laws of the OT. He could have also said that homosexuality is only mentioned once in the NT, and Paul made up that word in Corinthians. No one can say exactly what it means. The word for homosexuality during that time was paiderasste. Paul didn't use it. He used the word arsenokoitai which supposedly translates into man and bed. The most schooled theologians can't even say for sure what it means or what Paul was referring to. Savage has a grudge and a bone to pick. He didn't want to educate. He wanted to pick a fight.

I have no problem with Savage refusing to debate Christian theology. That wasn't his purpose and I think people should actually do less of it. The problem with doing what you say he should have done is that it's debating on the Christians' terms, and the Bible and Christianity itself is vague and contradictory enough that you can never win by doing that. Instead, it needs to be pointed out that, even if the Bible did condemn homosexuality, that's no excuse for using religious beliefs to discriminate and bully in secular situations.

[valsa]

I have no problem slapping an adult who bullies a child.

Yeah, have fun with your assault charge :roll:

And with teaching children that if someone says something they don't like, it's okay to hit them.

[ADoyle90815]

I wouldn't slap him but he was being a bully to those who disagree with him and those who walked out. A clear case of the kettle calling the pot black. :evil:

QFT

[FloraDoraDolly]

I have no problem with Savage refusing to debate Christian theology. That wasn't his purpose and I think people should actually do less of it. The problem with doing what you say he should have done is that it's debating on the Christians' terms, and the Bible and Christianity itself is vague and contradictory enough that you can never win by doing that. Instead, it needs to be pointed out that, even if the Bible did condemn homosexuality, that's no excuse for using religious beliefs to discriminate and bully in secular situations.

There are many ways in which an adult role model could have used this as a teachable moment, but that's not what Dan Savage did. He verbally beat up a bunch of kids who hadn't done anything wrong and he trashed the religious beliefs of the ones who are Christians. These kids were student journalists, not bullies who'd been sent to some kind of boot camp. They did not deserve to be treated that way and, as I stated earlier, I am glad they walked out.

[valsa]

There are many ways in which an adult role model could have used this as a teachable moment, but that's not what Dan Savage did. He verbally beat up a bunch of kids who hadn't done anything wrong and he trashed the religious beliefs of the ones who are Christians. These kids were student journalists, not bullies who'd been sent to some kind of boot camp. They did not deserve to be treated that way and, as I stated earlier, I am glad they walked out.

No, he trashed the belief that it's okay to use your religion to justify hatred, discrimination, and bullying. If that's part of these kids' version of Christianity, then it needs to be trashed.

[MrsYoungie]

Did these "students of journalism" think that in the future they will only interview and research people that they agree with and who are "nice"?

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Did these "students of journalism" think that in the future they will only interview and research people that they agree with and who are "nice"?

QFT.

Also, while I personally love Dan Savage in all his vulgarity, inviting him to give a speech and then being offended when he criticizes Christianity and uses bad language reminds me of that old fable about the wolf who is saved by a sheep.

All that being said, I do agree that he ought not to have used the word "pansy", and I'm honestly very surprised that he did it.

[polabear]

It is not okay at all to call minor children pansy asses.

He didn't call minor children pansy asses. He said that they were pansy assed in their actions.

I do have to say that the vast majority of kids who walked out were laughing and smirking - the big chunk came right after an official looking woman, who makes me think she took her whole class out of the room. There was one girl who left at the very end who did look shaken.

Also, none of the kids were in the room when he said they acted pansy assed - they had all left by then.

[debrand]

No, he trashed the belief that it's okay to use your religion to justify hatred, discrimination, and bullying. If that's part of these kids' version of Christianity, then it needs to be trashed.

I agree. Savage didn't trash Chrsitanity, he trashed the idea that religion justifies bullying homosexuals.

[kamcho_papio]

I'm also pretty certain "pansy" is one of the words that Savage uses fairly frequently in a semi-self-referential/ I dare you way. I just did a quick search through the Savage Love archive and it comes up hundreds of times. He also uses "faggot" the same way, as well as a few other words that would be shocking out of context, but I think that's his intention.