I don't know what to say.... - Andrew and Lora Lynn

[Witsec6]

Umm... could someone with children please address this for me:

...This stems from the days when they used to play in their poop and use their books and toys to wipe their butts. But they’re finally old enough to handle toys in their room and I’ve stepped on enough Legos in the hallway that I’m motivated to move the toys in....

Is it logical that you would simply leave three children who are of an age to be playing with their poop in a bare room instead of monitoring them (and changing them) more?

Hmmm. . . playing in poop was not a real problem in my experience. . . so don't really know what to make of that. I would agree that children who are still young enough to have poopy diapers should not be playing for any extended period without supervision. Because if they had supervision, presumably, the diaper would be changed and there would be no opportunity for "poop play".

[MerryHappy]

Well, since you are here, can you please stop complaining about having so many kids? It isn't like they dropped out of the sky one night and were forced on you. You chose to have them, so put on your big girl panties and quit acting like your life is so horrible. And if your life really is so horrible, do something to change it. And if the only way you can take your kids places is by putting them in danger, you should really rethink your whole lifestyle.

This. A thousand times this.

[Elaine]

Austin wrote:

keeperrox wrote:

I call complete and utter bullshit that these uber-families get stopped ALL.THE.TIME while in public by people who want to criticize them about their family size as the comments would imply. They're all such fucking liars.

I think they mostly lie about this stuff, too. Most people have too much on their minds when they're running these sorts of errands to be bothered by what anybody else is doing unless it directly affects them. I don't doubt it happens occasionally as we received attention because we had twins and a toddler, and people would say, "Oh, look at all those boys", etc., but it was not said with any evil intent.

I think it's all about the persecution complex. Gotta keep fueling that fire, dontcha know. . . all of society is out to get them!

Yeah, I call mostly pants on fire.

TOTALLY agree. I regularly go shopping and on outings with all of my kids (seven of them). No one ever makes any weird/bad/offensive comments. No one ever makes any comments at all. This reminds me of ZsuZsu's constant prattling about "all these children" and the looks and comments she gets. Liar. People are too used to the Duggars. Unless you have a dozen kids, it isn't even going to raise an eyebrow.

Also agree with the comment about not complaining about your kids. You wanted a big family...live with it.

[Katiebug]

I'm surprised the store employee didn't offer to help in some way - I have one baby and several times while I was pregnant and since having her, I've had employees at the supermarket, Lowe's, and Target all ask if they can arrange to have someone help me get my purchases to my car.

Around here it would be considered rude to comment on a stranger's family size or snarkily ask if they know what birth control is. I may THINK these things if I see ill-mannered children in public and the parent is doing nothing to resolve the situation, but I wouldn't SAY something because it would be rude and it's just not my place. It also has little to do with the number of children in a family - I have seen a dad wrangling 4 or 5 little ones amazingly well and a mom who can't manage one child.

[keeperrox]

Around here it would be considered rude to comment on a stranger's family size or snarkily ask if they know what birth control is. I may THINK these things if I see ill-mannered children in public and the parent is doing nothing to resolve the situation, but I wouldn't SAY something because it would be rude and it's just not my place. It also has little to do with the number of children in a family - I have seen a dad wrangling 4 or 5 little ones amazingly well and a mom who can't manage one child.

Exactly, and this is why I think they're lying. Where in the world do all these people live that these rude strangers are coming up to them to comment on their family and make them feel bad? Because it's certainly no civilized place that I've ever been to. Do I doubt that it's maybe happened once or twice? No. But every time they go out and several times on each outing? No frickin' way.

[Kelya]

When I worked in retail, we were allowed to help pregnant or disabled customers, but not able to push children around in carts/buggies, hold kids, or hold any personal belongings. It basically amounted to us being able to place items into a child free cart or into a vehicle, because of liability.

The employee probably saw the situation, saw the not pregnant/not visibly disabled, and not with an infant LL, (we'd try to help with really young infants as much as possible, but still weren't allowed to push/hold them) and just reminded her of basic safety rules.

That she should know.

Because presumably she's gone shopping with children before.

And presumably she loves her kids and wants them to be safe and healthy.

(Even though she's having a hard time demonstrating that, what with her casually allowing her nonswimming children to play in pools with inadequate supervision and all. *eyeroll* )

This is why I think her birth family is just as dangerous as other fundies...look at the nut they managed to pop out, and they're only gotten more fundie since!

[higgledypiggledy]

I don't think it is always bullshit as it just happened to me. I was on vacation this last week when accosted by what I hope was a mentally ill woman, otherwise I am too freaked out by the experience. We were in a public park having a picnic and my eleven year old son was holding our 8 month old on his lap when a woman came up shaking and her openingwords were "I'm having an anxiety attack and its because your baby might die." She started out in a normal voice and within a few sentences was yelling. I wasn't sure what to do, since she seemed so unhinged. The families in the picnic table next to us got up and left when it was clear she was raving and scaring all the kids. {retty soon she was shaking and talking about how I didn't have appropriate concern for the saftey of my child and was a danger to my children. We gathered our things and walked to our car about a half blck away. She followed us and took our liscense plate number. I chose not to respond and leave because I assumed only a mentally or emotionally disturbed person would do this and any comment I made would unhunge her more. It was very disturbing to my kids. My son was wondering why she seemed to think he was going to drop the baby and kill him since both were seated on the ground. So do people come up and comment, in the past I might not have believed it but after last week I do.

That said, if I must take all the kids to the store, I put the infant carrier in the basket portion of the cart and the toddler buckles into the appropriate seat and my oldest pushes a second cart to hold items. A car seat placed in the toddler seat can off balance some smaller carts. Everyone else walkes within arms length of the carts. It isn't that tough.

[higgledypiggledy]

can't figure out how to edit, sorry about the bad spelling etc... i look like a sodrt graduate.

[ladypuglover]

As I said, I have gotten all sorts of comments on my family size over the years from 3 kids to 5 kids. I normally don't notice people around me but I know when they are talking to me, I tend to pay attention. When we got the comments my kids weren't acting up but just standing around or helping me. I think seeing 7 people throws people off and sometimes they forget how hurtful a joking remark can be. It can happen and it used to happen to me.

[keeperrox]

Do I doubt that it's maybe happened once or twice? No. But every time they go out and several times on each outing? No frickin' way.

[demgirl]

What I can't stand is her recent post about disciplining children. It's all -- you misbehaved because you sinned. You are a sinner. You will always be a sinner. You can't hope to be anything better than a depraved sinner. You should pray to God to be a better person, but it won't work, but still pray for it. And, also, nothing positive that you do or that you are is because of something you, the child, did. It's something God gave you, which leads her child to show her a picture and say, "Look what God showed me how to draw!". No credit for their own work, their own imagination, their own learning and development. No, God touched them and showed them how to draw a dragon. Gah.

I know that she says it's just "giving credit where credit is due" and it's not that she is devaluing their accomplishment, but -- yeah, it is. I'm not opposed to telling kids that God helped form their personality, but I feel like it should be more like, "God made you so creative! You did such an excellent job working the creativity and imagination that God gave you to come up with that beautiful picture. God must be so happy to see you are putting to use what basic skills he gave you and using your own work, honing and effort to put them into practice and develop them further!", if you really have to make every praiseworthy thing your child does all about God.

And, yeah, the "woe is me, I have so many children" shtick is tired. OTOH, reading VF makes me really sad because she is obviously smart and she's an engaging writer. I feel like she's someone I would really like and enjoy in real life, if her path had taken her more mainstream, rather than fundie.

[apple1]

Umm... could someone with children please address this for me:

Is it logical that you would simply leave three children who are of an age to be playing with their poop in a bare room instead of monitoring them (and changing them) more?

Hmmm. . . playing in poop was not a real problem in my experience. . . so don't really know what to make of that. I would agree that children who are still young enough to have poopy diapers should not be playing for any extended period without supervision. Because if they had supervision, presumably, the diaper would be changed and there would be no opportunity for "poop play".

My kids are adults, and I am a Grandma now.

1) I never left them in a bare room. Never.

2) Mine never played in their poop. And yes, they were supervised. You are correct, kids of diaper age (and even much older) should not be left for any extended period without supervision. This is commonly known as PARENTING. PARENTING involves interaction with your kids.

3) I believe in CHANGING diapers that have become wet or soiled. I never get the parents that say, no more than 3 (or 4) diapers a day no matter what. (Yes, I have been told that more than once. Really.) Maybe that's why their kids have such a problem with diaper rash. What goes around comes around. God forbid, if someday I am an incontinent old lady and my daughters are caring for me, hopefully they would keep me changed and clean. Really.

Postscript: Re: the quote about Legos in the hallway-- Why would any parent want their kids to play with toys in the hallway instead of in their rooms, or in the family/living room? This just sounds goofy.

[onlyorganic]

I'd like to point out that there is a huge difference between a random customer making a comment when they should be minding their own beeswax versus a store employee who has been trained to point out a safety violation as a part of their job. Also, a comment being made that the cart could flip over is NOT the same thing as a comment being made about having a huge family or being a bad parent.

As LL described her situation it was an employee doing their job and not a personal attack. The employee would have approached a group of elderly men pushing each other unsafely in carts in just the same manner. It had nothing to do with being targeted as a large family. I think she's reading way too much into it. Did she have the right to make a snarky remark about the employee helping her with her little ones? No. She was the one who brought a huge family into the store, she should be aware if one member of her family is endangering themselves. If anything, she could have thanked the woman for her concern.

I have strong feelings about this having worked in a hardware story and seeing/hearing how many parents let their children act up . I also saw a good number of parents screech and holler and cry foul when little Timmy cut his finger or little Suzie fell over...then go on and on how about "unsafe" our store was when most of these injuries could have been prevented. (One of the biggies that parents don't even seem to think about are the lumber carts. Kids like to sit on those and when they wrap their fingers around the edge they could hit the wheel and do serious harm to their fingers/hand.) It's kind of a no-win situation. If a child had fallen and she'd ended up in the ER she'd be the first to report "Well, there was a man in his red vest standing over by the the plumbing line but could he have bothered to tell Little Bobby to sit down or warn me Bobby'd been standing? Nooooo..."

[lilah]

I suppose this is the uglier side of reality with having a gigantic family of young kids. And this is the reason why women, especially those living in pre-agricultural societies would find ways to space out their children, usually by extended breast feeding, co-sleeping etc because having a lot of little kids underfoot is really freaking hard.

A lot of the moms with large families that have older kids seem a lot more mellowed out becuase they can farm a lot of the household work and child rearing off on the older kids but when you've got say 5-6 kids under the age of 8 you are just well and screwed and outnumbered. This post reminds me a but of Zsu-Zsu feeling overwhelmed trying to take her kids hiking.

[browngrl]

I don't have any children (by choice) and other than being an aunt who willfully leads her nieces and nephews into mayhem and fun - I really don't have much interaction with children. So I find when I read blog posts like this one about how hard it is to raise a big family - I am reluctant to snark. After all what do I know about handling children- maybe this is the norm? I don't know. So my question to the moms here: is it o.k to snark/snap/bitch at women who can't seem to handle their pack of kids when you yourself have NO real experience in dealing with kids?

[Kelya]

I don't have any children (by choice) and other than being an aunt who willfully leads her nieces and nephews into mayhem and fun - I really don't have much interaction with children. So I find when I read blog posts like this one about how hard it is to raise a big family - I am reluctant to snark. After all what do I know about handling children- maybe this is the norm? I don't know. So my question to the moms here: is it o.k to snark/snap/bitch at women who can't seem to handle their pack of kids when you yourself have NO real experience in dealing with kids?

Depends- I never advocate being rude IRL because its just not classy.

But I certainly mentally judge people with out of control children, if there's one kid or eleven kids.

Kid pitching a fit in a grocery store? Happens occasionally. Kids are little people, with all the emotions but no established coping skills yet. And that SUCKS! Family where the kid is a wild hellion and parents are encouraging it or not immediately putting a stop to it? I get my eyerolls and attitude out. Anytime kid is clearly running the show gets attitude from me, because I wasn't raised that way, no one I know what was raised that way, etc. It can be done.

Oddly enough I don't tend to judge based on family size, it really only catches my attention when their kids interfere with my use of public or paid for spaces.

[twin2]

I don't have any children (by choice) and other than being an aunt who willfully leads her nieces and nephews into mayhem and fun - I really don't have much interaction with children. So I find when I read blog posts like this one about how hard it is to raise a big family - I am reluctant to snark. After all what do I know about handling children- maybe this is the norm? I don't know. So my question to the moms here: is it o.k to snark/snap/bitch at women who can't seem to handle their pack of kids when you yourself have NO real experience in dealing with kids?

On some level, I say yes. The case in point, was an issue of liability for the store. It was dangerous, if the one of the kids were hurt the store could be liable. The employee was doing their job.

Also, when children behave like howler monkeys in public, it is not only themselves they may be putting in harms way, but others as well. I worked in a restaurant for 6 years though most children behaved very well, there were the expectations. Every Sunday we had a buffet. One Sunday, some kids got bored and decided to play a game of tag up by the buffet units. The parents sat at the table and oohed and aahed about how cute their kids were. Well, when to me, the waitress trying to pass buy carrying a tray with a pot of hot coffee and a glass pitcher of milk, its not so cute. One of the kids could dart in front of me causing me to loose my balance and drop the tray of hot coffee and the glass picture of milk on their children. Now, if the parents believe that the potential risk of burns or cuts is acceptable to get a good game of tag in, so be it. However, I, the waitress really doesn't want to trip on a kid and dump a pot of hot coffee on myself or fall on a glass pitcher. However, I'm a selfish bitch. Also, in addition to these families and their howler monkeys, there is also a restaurant full of paying customers who like to eat their meal in peace. So yes, I do believe it is acceptable to politely ask parents to control their kids for the safety and the enjoyment of the rest of the people in the world. Yes, I understand their are some children with special needs who are difficult to control, but all of the bad behavior I observed was from perfectly normal kids.

[Kelya]

On some level, I say yes. The case in point, was an issue of liability for the store. It was dangerous, if the one of the kids were hurt the store could be liable. The employee was doing their job.

Also, when children behave like howler monkeys in public, it is not only themselves they may be putting in harms way, but others as well. I worked in a restaurant for 6 years though most children behaved very well, there were the expectations. Every Sunday we had a buffet. One Sunday, some kids got bored and decided to play a game of tag up by the buffet units. The parents sat at the table and oohed and aahed about how cute their kids were. Well, when to me, the waitress trying to pass buy carrying a tray with a pot of hot coffee and a glass pitcher of milk, its not so cute. One of the kids could dart in front of me causing me to loose my balance and drop the tray of hot coffee and the glass picture of milk on their children. Now, if the parents believe that the potential risk of burns or cuts is acceptable to get a good game of tag in, so be it. However, I, the waitress really doesn't want to trip on a kid and dump a pot of hot coffee on myself or fall on a glass pitcher. However, I'm a selfish bitch. Also, in addition to these families and their howler monkeys, there is also a restaurant full of paying customers who like to eat their meal in peace. So yes, I do believe it is acceptable to politely ask parents to control their kids for the safety and the enjoyment of the rest of the people in the world. Yes, I understand their are some children with special needs who are difficult to control, but all of the bad behavior I observed was from perfectly normal kids.

Exactly, there's a tolerance level. Invisible disabilities exist, but after a certain point, regardless of a child's abilities, a parent needs to step in, usually for health or safety reasons.

Parents who bring their kids to the movies at night (like 9 o clock showings!) and then wonder why their kid is shrieking and people want you out are my particular issue. Going to the movies is so expensive now that I can't see going with a kid unable to appreciate it, first off, and most young kids should really bed in bed by 11 o clock when the movie gets out! Your kid is tired, possible scared, and you're a sucky parent for dragging your kid out!

[treemom]

Commenting to say this: People are WAY meaner about having an only child then saying "wow your hands are full" If you have 5 kids your hands are full. That isn't a bad thing. I had hoped to also have my hands full of kids.

But people comment all the time to me (mother of an only child) that only children are X (and X is almost never a neutral or positive trait). Someone told me they had to have more than one kid because they were married to an only child and he was so difficult they wanted to prevent that in their kids.

And yet, still not persecuted or crying. People are usually trying to relate to you when they comment on the size of your family.

Also, as I have mentioned a million times the fake selfdeprication and modesty of LL annoys the crap out of me.

[Mommy22alyns]

Umm... could someone with children please address this for me:

Is it logical that you would simply leave three children who are of an age to be playing with their poop in a bare room instead of monitoring them (and changing them) more?

Hmmm. . . playing in poop was not a real problem in my experience. . . so don't really know what to make of that. I would agree that children who are still young enough to have poopy diapers should not be playing for any extended period without supervision. Because if they had supervision, presumably, the diaper would be changed and there would be no opportunity for "poop play".

No poop play here. Of course, I also have girls, which might have helped in this department. They've never tried to wipe themselves with a book... WTF??