Little Adolf Hitler's Parents Lose Custody of Newborn

[alba]

I'm very much of the opinion that the rights of the parent stop where the child's rights begin; thus the child's right to not face discrimination because of the name trumps the parents' right to choose any name they like. This doesn't mean that I agree with the French (?) system whereby parents have to choose a name off of a set list. Rather, I think that names should require approval, but that they should by default be approved unless they clearly display a lack of consideration for the ramifications for the child. So Aoife and Brandy are fine, Adolf Hitler is not.

[Aurora]

I know a ton of Brandys (Brandee, Brandi, Brandie, Brandyee) and I think Chardonnay is a nice name. However, "Asshole" and "Hitler" are abusive.

Yeah, I have nothing against Brandy or Chardonnay, but certain names, such as Adolf Hitler, should be illegal. One should not be allowed to name an innocent child something that offends hundreds of thousands of people and will scar the child for life.

[BlackHawk]

I'm very much of the opinion that the rights of the parent stop where the child's rights begin; thus the child's right to not face discrimination because of the name trumps the parents' right to choose any name they like. This doesn't mean that I agree with the French (?) system whereby parents have to choose a name off of a set list. Rather, I think that names should require approval, but that they should by default be approved unless they clearly display a lack of consideration for the ramifications for the child. So Aoife and Brandy are fine, Adolf Hitler is not.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit here. Who would decide what names would be approved or not? Would there be gender requirements? What will be "the line" that gets drawn? Where does the rights of a child trump that of the person taking care of them? Again, who draws that line? When is a name a right and not a preference of the parent?

Okay, I'm just asking questions to put them out there. Where do the child's rights start and how far should they go? What is the point in having parents at that point? Why not just have children raised by the gov't in homes instead so they all come out the same? (That is conspiracy thinking on my part, taking it to the extreme, but like I said, playing devil's advocate.)

[alba]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit here. Who would decide what names would be approved or not? Would there be gender requirements? What will be "the line" that gets drawn? Where does the rights of a child trump that of the person taking care of them? Again, who draws that line? When is a name a right and not a preference of the parent?

Okay, I'm just asking questions to put them out there. Where do the child's rights start and how far should they go? What is the point in having parents at that point? Why not just have children raised by the gov't in homes instead so they all come out the same? (That is conspiracy thinking on my part, taking it to the extreme, but like I said, playing devil's advocate.)

Well, in my opinion, it's only when things are evidently harmful that parents' freedom should be restricted. I know this is kind of shaky, but I think if it's merely questionable it's acceptable unless proven otherwise. I wouldn't want to restrict the freedoms people have in naming their children overly, but at the same time if a parent wants to name his or her child after a fascist dictator who was responsible for millions of deaths, someone (I would imagine a part of the government set up to deal with such things) should intervene.

I know that there are a lot 'what if's and it would be very hard to draw the line, and I'm not sure where I would. I just know that Hitler is beyond the line :P

[kpmom]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit here. Who would decide what names would be approved or not? Would there be gender requirements? What will be "the line" that gets drawn? Where does the rights of a child trump that of the person taking care of them? Again, who draws that line? When is a name a right and not a preference of the parent?

This is my concern, too. Would a govm't agency make the decision on what's acceptable and what's not? Do we really want the govm't telling us what we can and cannot name our kids?

Otoh, this family's choice of names is despicable, and, it seems, purposely so.

[BlackHawk]

Well, in my opinion, it's only when things are evidently harmful that parents' freedom should be restricted. I know this is kind of shaky, but I think if it's merely questionable it's acceptable unless proven otherwise. I wouldn't want to restrict the freedoms people have in naming their children overly, but at the same time if a parent wants to name his or her child after a fascist dictator who was responsible for millions of deaths, someone (I would imagine a part of the government set up to deal with such things) should intervene.

I know that there are a lot 'what if's and it would be very hard to draw the line, and I'm not sure where I would. I just know that Hitler is beyond the line :P

Oh I agree, Adolf Hitler is a horrible name. But I just hate the idea of someone limiting my freedoms on a whim... and it does come down to who draws the lines and then what is the point of parents if the Gov't tells you how to raise them fully. Do you have a problem with the name Adolf or just the combination of Adolf and Hitler? (that's more a personal question!) Does one horrible person get to ruin a name or just a combination of names? (Sorry, more questions... I just find this topic interesting!)

(Edits because I really do have a grasp on the English language :) )

[Austin]

Personally I use the "judge or ballet dancer" test, in which my children's names all had to work for either. There will probably be no Judge Dakkeri. The girl does not even have a chance. But Adolph Hittler is a clear violation of the child's rights. He won't make it through 3rd grade without repeated ass-kickings over his name.

That made me chuckle to remember that our test was "arguing to the Supreme Court". If we could not imagine [first name] [last name] arguing before the Supremes, the name got put in the "hell, no" column.

People, people, people: please think twice before naming your children something. . . unusual. The name is about the child, not to show off your speshul-snowflakiness. Just a piece of advice - take it or leave it (although research backs it up).

[kpmom]

That made me chuckle to remember that our test was "arguing to the Supreme Court". If we could not imagine [first name] [last name] arguing before the Supremes, the name got put in the "hell, no" column.

People, people, people: please think twice before naming your children something. . . unusual. The name is about the child, not to show off your speshul-snowflakiness. Just a piece of advice - take it or leave it (although research backs it up).

Although who'da thought we'd ever have a Secretary of State named Condaleeza (sp?) and a Prez named Barack?

[tropaka]

There are some combinations of names that are inevitably ruined...Osama, fine, Osama bin Ladin not so much....Joseph's fine too, Joseph Stalin maybe not.

Kinda OT but my hubby just got a new coworker named Leon Trotsky - I told him he better bite his tongue before saying something smart....the guy is in his 50s so his parents were probably toeing the good communist line somewhere....

[uber frau]

In Australia you can name your child whatever you like as long as it's not deemed offensive. In the very rare instances your choice is refused, you have a right to appeal. There is scope for middle ground.

The baby wasn't taken because he had an offense name, he was taken because his parents are abusive have proven they are not fit to provide him with his needs.

[Stickers]

They were not removed because of the names. Adolf was the baby's older brother. The baby was names Hons.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninsca ... ewborn.php

Hons? Do they mean Hans? I've seen a Hons before.

[Wolfie]

However, "Asshole" and "Hitler" are abusive.

I don't disagree that Asshole would be abusive- but other than urban legends, I don't think anybody has ever named a child that name.

[Wolfie]

Then you also have to get into cultural things. I teach a lot of students from India. I've had a couple named "Aryan" (said as Arr-Yan) would you outlaw that name, even though it's from a different culture without the same meaning? What about my students named "Lovedeep" or so on. Totally normal in the country where they came from, just with different meanings here.

[emmiedahl]

It's is Hons, not Hans. Odd, but not as bad as Adolf. Wolfie, Aryan must be common in India because I know someone named that. It causes chuckles, though, and he always has to pronounce it for people.

[JesusFightClub]

There are some combinations of names that are inevitably ruined...Osama, fine, Osama bin Ladin not so much....Joseph's fine too, Joseph Stalin maybe not.

Kinda OT but my hubby just got a new coworker named Leon Trotsky - I told him he better bite his tongue before saying something smart....the guy is in his 50s so his parents were probably toeing the good communist line somewhere....

Hahahaha! I know a Leon Trotsky too but he's considerably younger. Also a handful of people called Che...

If I had children (heaven forbid) I would name a boy Iain, the Scots version of John, after John Maclean. The girl Rosa after Rosa Luxemburg. The boy would be Iain Felix after Felix Dzerzhinsky. The girl, I have so many choices for, but generally I am thinking middle name would be Alexandra after Kollontai. Luckily for all, this is but an idle fancy on my part as kids are sooo not on my horizon.

So would I be a bad mum on the strength of my hypothetical kids' names? If you call your kid Arsehole or Mistake yeah, I can see the abuse. However even "Hitler" is not precisely the same.

[onlyorganic]

I don't disagree that Asshole would be abusive- but other than urban legends, I don't think anybody has ever named a child that name.

Well said, Kelya and Wolfie. Honslynn? Were they trying to name the kid after Heinrich Himmler and botched the spelling completely? They just look like average dumb****s. I don't mean to stereotype just based on someone's name choice but it's a huge symptom of what else is probably going on in the home. No sane person with a healthy attitude says "You know, I think that I will name my kid Adolf Hitler!" I also heard (and maybe this is urban legend) the rest of the real Hitler family didn't procreate and distant cousins changed their names to avoid any association. For someone to put the name on a pedestal and actually name their kid "Hitler" is child abuse. The parents can't be THAT stupid to not realize how hard his life is gonna be...

[alba]

In Australia you can name your child whatever you like as long as it's not deemed offensive. In the very rare instances your choice is refused, you have a right to appeal. There is scope for middle ground.

The baby wasn't taken because he had an offense name, he was taken because his parents are abusive have proven they are not fit to provide him with his needs.

I think that's pretty much how it should work, with culture taken into account, so in the Aryan example another poster mentioned there wouldn't be a problem. I would never want to see good parents prevented from naming their kid an overall harmless name (if kids want to bully a child they'll be able to think of something cruel regardless of name, anyway), but I do feel like there should be some limits.

Hey, JesusFightClub, my dad's Iain!

[mausi]

Hahahaha! I know a Leon Trotsky too but he's considerably younger. Also a handful of people called Che...

If I had children (heaven forbid) I would name a boy Iain, the Scots version of John, after John Maclean. The girl Rosa after Rosa Luxemburg. The boy would be Iain Felix after Felix Dzerzhinsky. The girl, I have so many choices for, but generally I am thinking middle name would be Alexandra after Kollontai. Luckily for all, this is but an idle fancy on my part as kids are sooo not on my horizon.

So would I be a bad mum on the strength of my hypothetical kids' names? If you call your kid Arsehole or Mistake yeah, I can see the abuse. However even "Hitler" is not precisely the same.

Rosa Alexandra is beautiful, my own love of Rose Luxemburg notwithstanding.

(Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden, my friend. :) )

[Wolfie]

Wolfie, Aryan must be common in India because I know someone named that. It causes chuckles, though, and he always has to pronounce it for people.

Sadly, I've met a couple of white people named Aryan/Arian. (went to middle school with an "Arian" and when volunteering once a boy named Kristopher signed his name and his sister's name in a signature book- her name was Aryan.)

The Indian ones I've had as students just have a name that I assume is somewhat normal in their country.

[misslady]

If you call your kid Arsehole or Mistake yeah, I can see the abuse.

Kinda OT again but this reminded me of an article I read recently that some might be interested in: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-22/India-women-names/50869628/1 - a ceremony for 285 girls in India to change their names from "Unwanted" (in the local language.)

[Mythicwings]

The names are horrible, but it sounds like there were issues of abuse or neglect. The physician who delivered her new baby called DYFS himself, and I'm sure his concerns were not name-related.

:clap:

[Mythicwings]

Kinda OT again but this reminded me of an article I read recently that some might be interested in: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-22/India-women-names/50869628/1 - a ceremony for 285 girls in India to change their names from "Unwanted" (in the local language.)

oh my god. :( that is one of the most heartbreaking things ever. Although it is an uplifting thing that that district actually did this, and that also hopsitals are forbidden to tell the parents what sex their unborn baby is. :) :)

[longskirtlotsakids]

I firmly believe in restricting name choices. I'm told quite a few countries do this, not permitting abusive or historically painful names. Name your kid Anna with seven Zs and a Q, whatever, but when your name choice is openly derogatory, like the above mentioned "sewage" or "asshole" or yes, "Hitler," it shouldn't be allowed.

That's a litle culturally insenstive. In India names some names translate to "Cesspool" and "Decay" Some latin nations use the name "Conception." Given our diverse population, you would advocate making someone change a given name if they emigrate in? What about the Korean PhD whose name is Chew Shit Fun? I have worked with a Ramit Deep and a Manmeet. Both were PhD's from India.

Names fall under free speech in my opinion.

[GiGi_41]

I believe the reason why CPS took custody of the newborn is because the parents already lost custody of their other two children. They lost their appeal in 2009 of their TPR (termination of parental rights).

Most states have a clause in their statutes that says if the court terminates your rights to your children due to CPS involvement you lose your rights to the rest of your unborn children. In Wisconsin the length of time is 3 years in some states it is FOREVER. This is the reason a lot of parents will sign over custody to their children in the final hour, right before trial. In 2010 new federal guidelines went into effect that says children must be given a final placement disposition with in a 15 month out of 22 month window. In the next year you are going to start seeing a lot of people claiming that CPS stole their children as states struggle to start meeting the deadline of 15 months. The 15 month criteria doesn't have to be a consecutive 15 months either...if they are in care for 6 months, then out for 4 months then back in for 9 months that counts as the 15 months and the parents rights can be terminated.

[PraiseSeitan]

I went to school with a lot of Vietnamese kids, so I had several classmates named Phuc. Pronounced 'fuck', much as teachers would try to pronounce it some other way. I should add that Long (various spellings) is another traditional name, and yes, there was more than one Long Phuc around. If anybody ever starts a TV show based in South Sacramento, the protagonist will be named Long Phuc and work at Pho King (pronounced fuh king- pho is a very tasty soup which will fix you right up if you're sick.)

Rules centered around extreme cases make for bad laws. Sure, nobody wants anybody to name their kids Zyklon B. Whatevertheirlastname, but if you want to name your kid Lexus or Phuc or whatever that's really nobody else's business. Having a list of approved names, which will naturally correspond to whatever the dominant culture approves of (ie white, upper middle class sounding names for boring suburban people) eliminates an important means of expressing culture. Think about it, if there'd been an approved list 100 years ago, in most of the US it would have deliberately excluded anything that sounded Catholic, or Jewish, or in any way not WASPy.

Another comment on Asian-American immigrant names- at least in the area where I grew up it's very common for people to give their kids a traditional name, but also an "American name" which they use for school and work. It's usually WASP-y as all hell and slightly old fashioned. So Phuc might answer to John at school, and his sister Thuy might alternate from year to year being addressed as Thuy or Hazel.