So, a bunch of former fundies are starting a church...

[Kaylee]

I was raised ELCA. First communion and confirmation (a public profession of faith) carry the spiritual weight of believer's baptism IME. Infant baptism is a ceremony in which the child is recognized as part of the body of Christ and the local congregation. First communion may be postponed to confirmation age or the two may be separated. In general, first communion is allowed when a child is perceived to be old enough to understand what an anamnesis is for and perhaps begin to grapple with mystery and paradox. Confirmation is for adolescence, a coming of age ceremony in which the student proclaims publicly his or her detailed affirmation of faith. Both are preceded by classes that can be quite tough.

Thanks for explaining this. I've read some things on baptism in theology books, but wasn't really sure how baptism and communion or confirmation were actually viewed in practice. Poking around the church website again, they have one book that's just about the Lutheran view of baptism, so I will probably end up reading that.

I do see where denominational oversight can be a good thing, I'm just not used to it. The only churches I've been involved with as an adult have been "independent". Most of the times, things have worked out, but I have seen problems, including some really big problems with other churches I've known of or known people in that would have either been stopped or not have happened if the leadership had some sort of outside accountability. The only denominational type church I've spent much time around is UMC (Methodist), which both set of my grandparents were a part of, and my dad is a member of. There have been some issues in my grandma's church in past years because of the UMC practice of rotating and moving clergy around, and there are some issues now because there acre areas where the church as a whole disagrees with certain UMC positions, but cannot leave because the denomination has ownership over the building (which was originally built in the 1700s by ancestors of many of the current members).

I'm still really wanting to give the new church that my friends are starting a try, and have volunteered to do some of the graphics work and website design for them, but I'd also like to keep my options open in case that doesn't work out. The ELCA church has 2 services, so I could go to both until I figure things out. A lot of it still depends on the hubby though - I'm still amazed he's wanting to go to church at all, so at this point I'll go where he is willing to.

[Brainsample]

Spiritual abusers always find ways to abuse, just like a tyrant finds tyranny. I don't think that in all cases, being part of a larger organization stops problems on the local level, though you do have a grievance process (usually) that will address the issue outside of the church.

I would just go into the situation, affirming that I was not bound to stay because of any kind of commitment and that I was free to leave if I wanted to do so. And I'd keep a copy of one of the books on spiritual abuse (VanVonderan or Blue) close at hand and would re-read them every so often.

[Brainsample]

When I see this thread title, I can't help but think it's a lead in to another joke, with FuManchu's most excellent joke about the Baptist, Presby, and ATI dude walking into a bar.

[CynicMom]

Raine, you keep turning back to the church because of companionship and friendship apart from any doctrine. So here's my advice: every so often (NOT every week) you can come to a social to be with friends. But there's no need to be part of a place that has caused you so much pain and that you recognize has the potential to cause you more pain in the future. Your husband can attend without you if he so chooses.

That way, when you have doctrinal differences it won't be like you were a regular member to begin with. AND you can keep your friends if you want.

Sheesh, this reminds me of the little baby duckling that thinks a biting dog is it's mommy. The dog may bite but the duck just huddles closer and closer to the dog, not being able to conceive of anything different.

[nutella addict]

I'd also support checking out an ELCA church. I was raised in an LCMS church and still go there and while I may not agree with everything, nobody at church has ever approached me with any judgment or firm correction or anything like that. The reason my parents were so impressed with it to begin with is that when they first moved here and asked the pastor to marry them and met him in his office carrying baby me, he didn't even bat an eyelash. My church tends to figure you know your sin and can confess to God without the church hounding you, as far as I can tell. I'd go ELCA just because they're less strict in terms of beliefs, but any Lutheran - or even liturgical - church IME is less likely to go legalistic, for all that we like a straightforward order of service and (many, at least) like our organs and old hymns. I went to a Lutheran church in Canada like ELCA and one of the most active couples in the church was a gay couple that nobody treated remotely differently. Yes, LCMS only ordains men to be pastors, but at least my church is friendly with all the local religions and goes to conferences where there are women pastors from other denominations and it doesn't bother them.

I'd also like to add that baptism, in my church, is more like introducing a baby to the church and welcoming him/her to the church family - that is, the whole congregation. It's Confirmation (also the first time you take Communion, in my church) which is your affirmation of belief and your spiritual baptism, and that didn't happen till the end of 8th grade. You had two years of classes in the beliefs of the church and the beliefs and practices of the other local churches and synagogues before you were confirmed, to assure that you knew what you were agreeing to believe in, if that makes sense. You really had to consider and break down your religion, and that class covered everything and was led by the pastor himself most weeks. You didn't just get baptized as an infant and leave it at that. Hope that helps you understand it a bit better :) I know Jenny_islander already covered it but I wanted to confirm it.

Edited for typos...

[nolongerIFBx]

I'm still really wanting to give the new church that my friends are starting a try, and have volunteered to do some of the graphics work and website design for them, but I'd also like to keep my options open in case that doesn't work out.

Raine- I'd be really interested in looking at the website if you would send me the URL. You can PM it to me if you want.

[Kaylee]

Raine- I'd be really interested in looking at the website if you would send me the URL. You can PM it to me if you want.

OK. I haven't even started the site yet. Right now, we're working on the logo and what sort of imagery and site they want to go with, then I'll be working it into a website hopefully early next month. I've got a few designs in mind, and waiting on everyone to look them over and see what the consensus is before I go on to other things. I'm not thrilled with the color scheme they want to go with, but I can work with it.

For the site, I'm going to keep it pretty simple for now and will probably use a WordPress template with some customizations - a welcome page with information about the church and its mission, core beliefs, service times and location, info on staff & ministries, pics, upcoming events and sermons or series', possibly a page with sermon notes and audio or video if we can do that.

[nolongerIFBx]

OK. I haven't even started the site yet. Right now, we're working on the logo and what sort of imagery and site they want to go with, then I'll be working it into a website hopefully early next month. I've got a few designs in mind, and waiting on everyone to look them over and see what the consensus is before I go on to other things. I'm not thrilled with the color scheme they want to go with, but I can work with it.

For the site, I'm going to keep it pretty simple for now and will probably use a WordPress template with some customizations - a welcome page with information about the church and its mission, core beliefs, service times and location, info on staff & ministries, pics, upcoming events and sermons or series', possibly a page with sermon notes and audio or video if we can do that.

I'll look forward to it (and probably be jealous that the church is not in my neck of the woods!).

[devilsadvocate]

If you're more interested in church for the community than the doctrine, why not look for a Unitarian Universalist church?

[Kaylee]

If you're more interested in church for the community than the doctrine, why not look for a Unitarian Universalist church?

That's the problem. I'm pretty particular about doctrine, which has really limited my choices. I am very conservative on most doctrinal positions, but more socially liberal, which is an odd place to be.

I'm not really comfortable with churches that don't teach doctrine or that stray much from the "fundamentals" of the faith (I know, open to interpretation, but I agree with most of the "historic" fundamentals), but at the same time I don't like churches that are bigoted towards people who hold different beliefs or have different lifestyles.

I was a member of a church that is Fundamentalist Baptist, but Reformed in doctrine (ie Calvinist, which is rare in fundamentalism). I like the pastor there and many of the people, but there are some issues from the church being part of a much more extreme type of fundamentalism not long ago, and a resulting "split". I can deal with that, but would prefer somewhere more progressive. There's also the practical issues that have kept me out for a while - my husband won't go, it's a fairly long drive (1/2 an hour, but the road is curvy and bad in winter so I won't drive it in ice or snow), and it's too small to have a daycare so if I bring my son I spend the whole time trying to entertain him quietly and it's exhausting.

Really, what this has going for it is the people. We know most of them and were close in our old church, and several of us have taken similar paths in the past 4 or 5 years - left fundamentalism, left church altogether, spent time working out their faith and/or beliefs, then started looking for a church with sound doctrine but without all the legalism. It's also something my husband wants to get involved in, which is surprising but a really big deal for me (he's been very hostile toward religion and church for years). They'll also have childcare and youth programs, which will be good, and we're planning to do some different types of community outreach as we find what sort of things people would be suited for and where the needs are.

[pixydust]

Raine, I'm so glad that you went and asked your questions (well, ours too, haha) and got answers that, for the most part, satisfy you. You are doing something that I never could (I can't even walk into my moms synagogue). Just keep your head about you and think things through.

And please don't leave us. I like your insight. 8-)