So, a bunch of former fundies are starting a church...

[Kaylee]

and I'm wondering if I'm setting myself up for more crazy here by being involved. Long story short, several people left my old church for various reasons, most of which included either being totally screwed over by fundamentalism or becoming disillusioned with it. One of the guys has been filling in as a pastor in another state, but wanted a church without the denominational baggage. They're going to be starting what's being billed as a more welcoming church that tries to get past the judgement and legalism that we grew up with.

Sound great, except I'm sure we all carry various screwed up takes on things from our collective IFB past. The guy who's going to be pastoring is rally cool on a personal level, but his dad as hardcore fundie to the point that some fundies find him too extreme, and he admires Marc Driscoll and Steven Furtick. That stuff gives me pause, but my husband is wanting to go to the pre-planning meeting for the church tonight, if for no other reason than to reconnect with some old friends. He also says he's interested in going to church there, if it's not the same old bullshit, but I'm a little concerned that it might be the same stuff wrapped up in newer music and with the legalism directed towards different areas.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for here, but y'all tend to give great advice. Anyone with pointers, questions I should ask, similar experience, etc? I did tell my husband I'm going to ask "hypothetically" how they would treat a gay person or couple who showed up, because that will be a pretty good litmus test of what they really mean by love & acceptance, and of how far people have really moved from their fundie roots. That, and I'm not putting him through having to listen to a bunch of homophobic attacks again, from a group of people he considers friends.

[mirele]

Mark Driscoll and Steven Furtick? I'd run away...fast...and don't look back.

[BravaAmica]

and I'm wondering if I'm setting myself up for more crazy here by being involved. Long story short, several people left my old church for various reasons, most of which included either being totally screwed over by fundamentalism or becoming disillusioned with it. One of the guys has been filling in as a pastor in another state, but wanted a church without the denominational baggage. They're going to be starting what's being billed as a more welcoming church that tries to get past the judgement and legalism that we grew up with.

Sound great, except I'm sure we all carry various screwed up takes on things from our collective IFB past. The guy who's going to be pastoring is rally cool on a personal level, but his dad as hardcore fundie to the point that some fundies find him too extreme, and he admires Marc Driscoll and Steven Furtick. That stuff gives me pause, but my husband is wanting to go to the pre-planning meeting for the church tonight, if for no other reason than to reconnect with some old friends. He also says he's interested in going to church there, if it's not the same old bullshit, but I'm a little concerned that it might be the same stuff wrapped up in newer music and with the legalism directed towards different areas.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for here, but y'all tend to give great advice. Anyone with pointers, questions I should ask, similar experience, etc? I did tell my husband I'm going to ask "hypothetically" how they would treat a gay person or couple who showed up, because that will be a pretty good litmus test of what they really mean by love & acceptance, and of how far people have really moved from their fundie roots. That, and I'm not putting him through having to listen to a bunch of homophobic attacks again, from a group of people he considers friends.

I think the gay question is good. Also ask other social justice questions and about women's right to choose. Like, ask the pastor, "How would you counsel a woman who confided in you that she had an abortion?" Don't qualify the abortion with "she was raped" or "the pregnancy would have killed her," just ask the question.

[Guest Anonymous]

Mark Driscoll and Steven Furtick? I'd run away...fast...and don't look back.

Sorry, but this.

Anyone who admires Mark Driscoll is someone that I want to be really freaking far away from.

[Austin]

I think it's important to determine how they view the "role" of women, how the power dynamic in a marriage should be set up. If he admires Driscoll, I hardly think you have have to even ask those questions, but that's just me. Remember that "complementarian" is just a nice word for "patriarchal"

What do you believe about gay people and their rights? If you believe something different (such as being gay is not a sin, for instance), how would you be able to deal with that?

[Kaylee]

Mark Driscoll and Steven Furtick? I'd run away...fast...and don't look back.

From anyone else, it's be a deal breaker, but those are an improvement from what he grew up with. I also know another guy who almost idolizes Driscoll and pastors a church, but is much more laid back. I'm hoping this is the same type thing (ie, some of the people he lists seem to be more because they have big churches and try to be "modern" & "relevant" more than for their ideas - those were the only 2 that really gave me pause, and I was actually a fan of Driscoll myself until I really started paying attention to him). Furtick bothers me the most, because he just comes across as an arrogant ass to, even morseo than Driscoll.

I guess I'll know in a couple hours. I was sort of excited about this at first, especially since my husband brought it up, but I'm feeling a little anxious now because I know I'm going to be bringing up some stuff that may end up being pretty awkward.

I'll ask about abortion, too, as well as women's roles in general. I'm assuming the overall church position is going to be complementarian, "pro-life", etc, but I want to know how the people in charge are going to actually going to treat people in light of that, and if they realize the damage that can be done by preaching certain views certain ways.

[fundiefan]

Mark Driscoll and Steven Furtick? I'd run away...fast...and don't look back.

Agreed. That's how people get in over their heads. They turn a blind eye to a 'few' things because other things are so pretty and shiny and they think they can overlook the crap.

This isn't little. If he's going to be the pastor, and these are his role models/people he likes/turns to/takes info from, big red flag.

[Austin]

I'm probably out of line, Raine, but I think you are in danger of getting dragged back into this crap. I think you may be rationalizing and minimizing to please your husband and I think it's going to end up sucking for you. You can tell me to shut up or mind my own business, but that's what I think.

[Witsec7]

Raine, I would run in the opposite direction. Have you tried Unity?

[ChunkyBarbie]

Agreed. That's how people get in over their heads. They turn a blind eye to a 'few' things because other things are so pretty and shiny and they think they can overlook the crap.

This isn't little. If he's going to be the pastor, and these are his role models/people he likes/turns to/takes info from, big red flag.

THIS! I would really pinpoint how the pastor/church defines the roles of women in the church and as humanbeings. Quite frankly, I would keep on looking for a church. Tell Hubs he can visit with the less Fundie friends outside of church. If they will only socialize with him if he is a member of the new church then, they aren't friend material. Good luck!

[JesusFightClub]

I'm probably out of line, Raine, but I think you are in danger of getting dragged back into this crap. I think you may be rationalizing and minimizing to please your husband and I think it's going to end up sucking for you. You can tell me to shut up or mind my own business, but that's what I think.

No, seconded. Raine, though we do not believe alike, we think alike. You are running into a trap here. You have to not.

This is the garlanded and flowered snare which will bring you down. Seriously. I feel like the board Cassandra somedays ;) but I am sure there is a mainstream Christian church who will be delighted to have you. Do not do this.

[BravaAmica]

Raine, I would run in the opposite direction. Have you tried Unity?

I second Unity. I attend a Unity church and LOVE it.

[Eclipse]

I agree with the previous posts that say you should asks questions. Maybe make a list of things you have disagreed with from your old church and about your current values. Just because you have all disagreed with the fundies upbringing doesn't mean you have same beliefs now.

I would make sure to find out what their view of women are in society, the church and the family. Will they encourage girls to go to school, college and get a job? Can they wear pants if they choose to? What about birth control? Raising children?

I understand the desire to reconnect with old friends and maybe find the sense of community your husband may feel he is missing but think carefully before you do this. There are great mainstream churches out there too.

[Kaylee]

What do you believe about gay people and their rights? If you believe something different (such as being gay is not a sin, for instance), how would you be able to deal with that?

I'm still sort of working on my views on gay people, but that's been one of the big things in the past year or so that's influenced my view of the church as a whole, and I just recently found out anti-gay preaching is one of the things that caused my husband to drop religion altogether (in the past week he's told me that and also mentioned going to this new church, so I want to see it addressed right up front).

Politically, I think gay people should be able to marry and should have all the same rights as straight people. It makes me sick to hear about some of the crap people have to go through because of who they love (in the past few months, I keep running across examples of this everywhere, to the point where it really is almost like God or the universe trying to make a point). I have several gay friends, a few who are married or in long-term relationships, and I just don't see the problem.

Theologically, it's harder. In my heart, I feel like sexual orientation is not a choice, so I don't see how it can be a sin. I just don't think God would make people, then condemn them for how he made them, and I've seen enough gay people in stable relationships who love each other, some of whom are Christians, that I would definitely say God has blessed. I've also done a fair amount of research onto the passages used by anti-gays, and I think they are both taken way out of context and overemphasized in relation to other sins, and that they were not meant to apply to "normal" gay marriages. It seems like most of the activities condemned in the Bible had to do with cultic rituals or the practice of married men taking young boys as lovers, not with a committed relationship between two adults.

One of the sites I've been spending a lot of time on (gaychristian.net) presents the argument as having 2 sides - either God blesses gay marriages or God is OK with gay people but asks them to be celibate. I know my church and theological backgrounds are definitely more in line with that, but I don't agree with that conclusion (although even that view would be a huge improvement compared to most of the churches around here). I feel like Paul's teaching that it is best to be celibate, but better to marry than burn with desire, can be applied regardless of orientation. If a gay couple feels like they should marry, then I think other Christians should at least accept that God can bless the union and the people involved, regardless of their particular views on it.

I also think that the litmus test for anything in Christianity should be love, and I see a lot more love from gay and gay-affirming Christians than I do from the majority of those who preach against them. Even if being gay were a sin, God can forgive, and I think a person who accepts Jesus as their savior is forgiven all their sins, not just the ones their preacher tells them is no big deal. If anything, the anti-gay culture that forces so many gay and questioning people away from Christianity has probably risk a hell of a lot more souls than any church which accepts gay people ever has.

[Witsec7]

I second Unity. I attend a Unity church and LOVE it.

I'm an atheist that promotes Unity to those who believe in religious community. I've yet to see any red flags that indicate an acceptance of the patriarchy.

[notathumper]

I live in a outlying county adjacent to Charlotte, NC. Steven Furtick and his rantings are becoming more widely known. He's never impressed me as a compassionate religious person at all, but rather one who feels entitled as an "anointed one". Yeah, whatever that means.

I would run and never look back if someone felt Steven Furtick was a person to emulate.

[pixydust]

I like the ideas on asking about gay people, abortion, and the role of women. I would also think that divorce and politics would be important (not what the pastors politics are, but preaching politics from the pulpit). Also, churches that don't have a governing body worry me....what happens if the pastor gets power hungry? Who is keeping up with the money? There needs to be checks and balances, in a church of 10 people and in a church of 10,000 people.

Good luck.

[Rosa]

It sounds like this church is going to be where these folks do all of their evolving from/to/around their pasts, so my real question would be: how much energy do you have, to be right in the middle of a group where everyone is healing from some sort of trauma?

It *can* be really exciting and emotionally nurturing to be in that spot, but it can also just be a horrible soulsucking pit of awfulness. IME especially with men who are used to using women as their emotional landing spots.

[BravaAmica]

I'm an atheist that promotes Unity to those who believe in religious community. I've yet to see any red flags that indicate an acceptance of the patriarchy.

Considering it was co-founded by a woman (Mytrle Fillmore), acceptance of patriarchy would not happen. My minister is a woman as well. Love her!

[MamaJunebug]

Raine, dear, whose posts i enjoy so much ... is it possible to visit a Lutheran church?

The ELCA type of Lutheranism is ok with gayness, female clergy and even non-celibate gay clergy!

Most of the other Lutheran church bodies take the conservative line, but it's possible to belong, to get wonderful Law/Gospel preaching every week, to celebrate the church year and to be treated like an intelligent human being.

I don't believe everything the Lutheran church teaches. Far from it. But in essentials we're together: Grace in spite of our sins, through Jesus Christ and mercy and joy to follow.

Just a thought. Thanks for considering, even if it was only for a nanosecond.

:think:

[Turtle]

I would be skeptical. I understand the pull of community though. I left fundie-lite when I moved out of my parent's house. A few years later, a friend of mine (who was also recovering from a fundie-lite upbringing) invited me to a new church. On the outside, it was packaged as very hip...the music, the younger crowd, the focus on love, even the location (urban setting, they met in the basement of a bar). But after a few months, it was clear to me that it was the same message, just re-packaged and re-sold. It was disappointing, but being single, it was relatively easy for me to distance myself from it. I would imagine that leaving a church as a married couple/family would be harder if things don't work out. You have more mutual friends, your kids have friends, ect. So, personally, I would approach it with a lot of caution.

Just antedotal/my observation: mainstream, liturgical denominations tend me be less emotionally manipulative. So, if you are searching for a Christian community, maybe Episcopalian or Lutheranism would be good to try out? I'm not either one, but that's just the impression that I have of those denominations.

[Kaylee]

OK, I went to the meeting and we ended up hanging out for a while afterward with the pastor and some of the people who are going to be part of the leadership team. I was surprised, in a good way. I hadn't seen most of them in at least 4 years, and most have been out of fundamentalism for at least 2-3 years, some having rejected more of it than others. The good thing is that everybody there recognizes how many people have been hurt by the church, and seems committed not to do the same things. How that will play out in real life remains to be seen, but I think people really do have good intentions and are going to actually try to be more open and welcoming. I am still on guard some and worried that it will end up being the same fundie teachings in shiny new packaging, but just hanging out afterward and talking to people makes me feel a lot better about that - most of them thought of me as one of the uber-fundies at our old church, so there would be no reason for them to act more liberal to make a good impression on me. I asked the pastor some of the questions I had planned on, and a few others were answered without me needing to ask. Again, the answers make me feel much better about it, but I'll still be looking to see how it actually plays out.

I asked him about gay people first, and he said that he would welcome them. He said his personal beliefs are that it is best for gay people to remain celibate, but if a couple was already married or in a committed relationship he would do his best to help them honor their marriage vows and be a part of the church community. He does is very much against the idea that gay people should be pushed into straight marriages to try to change, because of the harm that can do to all involved. He does not support the "ex-gay" ministries that try to change people's orientation, and things they do more harm than good for most people. He's noticed the same pattern I have - they sometimes work for people who seem to have turned to same-sex relationships after abuse or trauma, but not to people who were probably born gay. He does believe that most gay people are born that way, and do not choose to be gay. I mentioned something about a group I've met some people from called the Gay Christian Network, and he was interested in learning more about them, because he thinks it will be a growing controversy within the church as a whole and he really does seem interested in how to be welcoming and how to educate others.

As far as women's roles, I'm really wondering how it's gonna work. There are already some women on what is going to be the church board, so basically in deacon or elder type positions, which surprised me a little. The pastor and his wife who warned me away from the ultra-patriarchal headcovering/frumper crowd (yeah, I didn't listen then) are both on the board, so at least they recognize the dangers there. Even when we were entrenched in fundie-dom, these are people who believed in college for men and women, were OK with public schools, and mostly had working wives. The pastor's wife and I are the only stay-at-home moms so far, and that's in part because she has to young children and they've moved several times in the past few years (they just finished college out of state, at a public non-religious university). They're fine with pants - most women there tonight (OK, everyone but me) were wearing jeans. I didn't ask about birth control, but I know they do not support the quiverfull type thinking or having more kids than you can support.

On abortion, he said he would not condemn anybody who'd had an abortion or treat them differently, and that he was aware that it was not uncommon for conservative Christians and pro-lifers to have had abortions secretly (this was the case with at least one former mutual friend - I don't know if he knows about that, and would never bring it up specifically). He said if a woman told him she was considering abortion, he'd try to convince the woman to make another choice, but would keep her decision private and try to support her and help her out afterwards without shaming her or laying on a guilt trip - I'm not sure how that would play out in real life without condemning her decision though.

They are accepting of divorced people, and think there are Biblical reasons for divorce, including abuse. Of the 5 "core" families that were there that I know from our previous church, one man is divorced and remarried and another couple were separated for a while.

Politically, most people are conservative, either Republican or libertarian-leaning, but one of the issues brought up was keeping politics out of the church and not pushing a certain political or social agenda.

The whole independent church thing is always an issue. Right now, they are working out who all will be on the board to have oversight on finances and big decisions - it's 6 members, but they have mentioned trying to expand enough to stop power from being concentrated among a circle of friends but keeping small enough to still be able to agree on things. The pastor also said he supports open books and open business meetings, because of issues with other churches and finances in the past.

Overall, I'm pretty positive and excited about it, but trying to stay objective in case it does end up being a repeat of the past. I know most of the people involved at this point have made some strides in "recovering" from fundamentalism, so at least it's not all just starting out on that road, but at the same time it is in influence we need to recognize is there.

One big thing that makes me want to give it a chance is that my husband is all for it, which amazes me. He is not a Christian and has not wanted anything to do with organized religion for years. I actually thought they lost him right from the beginning because there were people of different races there and the pastor made it clear that we were going to be multicultural and try to connect with the whole community (my husband is steal working out some issues from our past, because he was racist as well). He was cool with it though, which surprised me and, after talking to some people on his own, he's wanting to get involved and says he might even come to church with us if we go there. This is HUGE for us, and I am just really, really hoping I'm not getting my hopes up to be let down.

A couple weeks ago I was getting to the point where I was close to giving up on religion, if not God, and then this came along and now Mr. anti-religion is talking about going to church. It's sort of freaking me out, because I am so hopeful, but there's still part of me worried that I might be reading too much into it all and setting myself up either for disappointment or for getting drawn back towards places I don't want to go.

Raine, dear, whose posts i enjoy so much ... is it possible to visit a Lutheran church?

It's funny you ask this because, if this doesn't work out, the other church I am considering is an ELCA Lutheran church. If it wasn't for infant baptism, I would be almost totally in agreement with Lutheran theology, but that one thing makes me much more comfortable in Baptist churches, so that's still my first choice (but I can overlook the baptismal question much faster than I can hatred masquerading as religion, which is what has led me to give up on most of the Baptist churches that resemble what I was raised in). I have visited a few Lutheran and Anglican churches in the area and there's one I like, but I still feel sort of awkward in liturgical churches because I'm not used to them, and I'm pretty committed to the idea of believer's baptism (to the point that I have reservations about some of the Baptist churches where you see very young kids being baptized).

[jenny_islander]

I was raised ELCA. First communion and confirmation (a public profession of faith) carry the spiritual weight of believer's baptism IME. Infant baptism is a ceremony in which the child is recognized as part of the body of Christ and the local congregation. First communion may be postponed to confirmation age or the two may be separated. In general, first communion is allowed when a child is perceived to be old enough to understand what an anamnesis is for and perhaps begin to grapple with mystery and paradox. Confirmation is for adolescence, a coming of age ceremony in which the student proclaims publicly his or her detailed affirmation of faith. Both are preceded by classes that can be quite tough.

[Jeff]

If you can get past infant baptism, I'd encourage you to take one more look at the Lutheran church you like. There are real advantages to having some sort of higher authority outside the congregation, to which the pastor and board of directors (by whatever name it goes in a given church - vestry, chapter, consistory, session, et cetera) is accountable. It doesn't matter if this is an individual person (that is, a bishop) or a council, of which the premier example would be a Presbyterian presbytery. There just needs to be someone to supervise congregation-pastor relationships, make sure that the money is being handled properly, keep a general eye out for churches going off the theological deep end, and so on. Denominational structures, especially at the lowest level, are there ultimately for the protection of the people in the pews, to ensure that they aren't getting baited and switched.

Are denominations sunshine and roses? No, far from it. But at least from my perspective as a lifelong church person, I wouldn't want to be without one.

As for the liturgy, it's like tea: it takes some time to get used to if you're coming from a tradition where it wasn't emphasized, but it's a great comfort once you get into the pattern.

[jenny_islander]

My old Lutheran church had a visit from a church ombudsman, a sort of traveling troubleshooter, who told us that we were the most charitable, hospitable, etc., etc., congregation in the whole diocese. The very next week the diocese sent us a visiting pastor who looked a lot like Popeye, down to the big forearms and the Coast Guard tattoos. He told us sternly not to rest on our laurels because people who pat themselves on the back about how good they are do not get treated well in Jesus' parables (chapter, verse, and summary). He ended his sermon, "May the peace of Christ disturb you." Then he processed out singing the post-sermon hymn in funereal tones.

I had problems with the way things were done at my old church--but marinating in self-satisfaction was not one of them.