The Flipside of Feminism- Has anyone read this book?

[ladypuglover]

The Flipside of Feminism: What Conservative Women Know -- and Men Can't Say

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Fl ... 935071273/

Has anyone read this book or now of the authors? They sound familiar but I can't remember from where.

[JesusFightClub]

Ladypuglover, I think one of the fundie bloggers read and reviewed it - I remember reading about it at the old forum. Venker I know not, but Phyllis Schafly is the Eagle Forum nut who has spent her entire life telling women to sit down and shut up (despite being a lawyer herself, we should all be barefoot and pregnant to our Godly headships...she has a bad case of the Serena Joys). IIRC there's a great takedown of her in the book "Backlash" which can basically be summed up as "FFS, can one person be any more of a hypocrite?"

I have not read the book and am not planning to, having no masochistic tendencies. I once read Ann Coulter's "Godless" but that was on a dare. :shifty:

[Shirley MacLaine]

"Their book demonstrates that conservative women are, in fact, the most liberated women in America and the folks to whom young people should be turning for advice. "

LOL, okay.

[acutexenophobia]

Do they realize that feminism doesn't mean opposing marriage and having kids...? Or did I learn about the wrong thing in school?

Oh shoot! There's my problem! I went to public school and I'm still in college. Darn it!

[GenerationCedarchip]

The Flipside of Feminism: What Conservative Women Know -- and Men Can't Say

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Fl ... 935071273/

Has anyone read this book or now of the authors? They sound familiar but I can't remember from where.

I have to admit that I'm curious enough to want to read the book, but I don't want to buy it because I don't want Phyllis Schlafly to get any money from me.

As an aside, I once had to inventory the estate of a hoarder (4 days in an un-air-conditioned farmhouse in the south - yikes!) and she kept all kinds of Phyllis Schlafly newsletters, etc.. re: the ERA. Now that was some crazy and scary stuff. There were newsletters all about how if we approved the ERA, women would be sent into combat against their will, there would be no maternity leave anymore, people would start living in communes and the family unit done away with, you name it.

[BlondeAgent007]

Never read the book, and a little OT, but now that feminism has been brought up...

I agree with feminism, but some parts of it muddle me a little. I think feminism has caused people to have unrealistic expectations of women. I also believe that some women that embrace feminism also still hold on to some chauvanistic views, in a way "having their cake and eating it too."

For my first point - there is a term I heard in a sociology class as females now having a "second shift". Meaning, that while women now (not all, but a good majority) work full time, they are also expected to complete the majority of tasks around the house that a SAHM would do. Although men in most households contribute to some housework, USUALLY the majority of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, and child rearing is still left up to the women. In a sense, it is like females have two full time jobs. I know historically women have had jobs, but many were out of the home or part time, leaving them enough time to fulfill other household duties. I don't know how to remedy this problem, but I know many people under a lot of daily stress because of these new higher, sometimes overwhelming expectations. Watch some episodes of wife swap or supernanny, it happens on those shows all the time.

On the other hand, many women want to be treated as equals to men, but still expect men to pay for everything. Even if a women makes more than a man she is dating, it is still thought to be customary for men to pay for a date. If anything dutch, but rarely do you hear of a woman footing the bill. They also expect lavish gifts for every greeting card holidays, engagement rings, or "because I care" presents, without reciprocating the gesture. I won't get into alimony since usually women get custody of the kids. But i think that if women want ment to start taking them seriously, and receive equal treatment, then they should not expect to have these old traditions followed, as it looks like hypocrisy to me.

I may have slashed open a wound here, but in my eyes, feminism in some regards has made a woman's life harder. In others, it makes us look like a bunch of damn hypocrites. I'm typing this fast so I'm not sure how well this post will flow....

BTW I am not a fundie at all, am in college and dating a wonderful man. Just my thoughts.

[valsa]

I agree with feminism, but some parts of it muddle me a little. I think feminism has caused people to have unrealistic expectations of women.

Feminism is about equality between women and men. The "second shift" you're talking about isn't caused by feminism. It's caused by a still existing inequality between women and men- the exact thing feminism fights. And feminism and equality is still a work in progress. Many feminists I know work towards getting married couples to realize that housework and childcare must be equally shared if both parents are working equally.

As for paying for things- I pay my own way. I don't personally know know a single self-described feminist who doesn't either split the dinner bill with the man or have a trade-off where one person pays for one meal and the other person pays for the next meal.

[ladypuglover]

Ladypuglover, I think one of the fundie bloggers read and reviewed it - I remember reading about it at the old forum. Venker I know not, but Phyllis Schafly is the Eagle Forum nut who has spent her entire life telling women to sit down and shut up (despite being a lawyer herself, we should all be barefoot and pregnant to our Godly headships...she has a bad case of the Serena Joys). IIRC there's a great takedown of her in the book "Backlash" which can basically be summed up as "FFS, can one person be any more of a hypocrite?"

[failsafe]

My thoughts on payment - if you invite me on something, ie "Let me take you to XYZ restaurant", you should pay. If we make a plan ie, "Hey, let's check out XYZ restaurant" we should split it. If I invite you, I'll pay.

In longer-term romantic relationships, trading off works, as does the partner that's making more paying. I also don't know anyone who's a feminist who expects to be paid for - I always always always offer to split this bill, but am not always taken up on it. In many cases, my offering to "split" the bill works out to my paying more than my fair share, since I tend to go for the chicken and pasta dishes over the steak ones and have 1-2 drinks as opposed to 3-4. If someone insists on treating me, I accept graciously, but I never expect it. I think it is nice and appropriate to offer to cover the whole bill if you have done the inviting for the date, whether you're the man on the woman. Just seems polite to me, but that's JMHO.

[dianapavelovna]

Venker is Schafly's daughter, IIRC.

EDIT: Apparently I made that up. Never mind! But this lovely book was published by WND Books. lulz

wndbooks.wnd.com/

[valsa]

In many cases, my offering to "split" the bill works out to my paying more than my fair share, since I tend to go for the chicken and pasta dishes over the steak ones and have 1-2 drinks as opposed to 3-4.

Usually when my date and I are splitting the bill, I tell the waiter to bring seperate checks so this doesn't happen (usually in reverse, since I like my steaks)

I'd also like to point out that, as a bisexual, I've dated both men and women and always treat the "paying for things" issue the same way with either gender. Though I did have one woman that expected for me to pay for everything (the date was her idea, to boot), so that attitude isn't exclusive to male/female relationships.

[Kelya]

For my first point - there is a term I heard in a sociology class as females now having a "second shift". Meaning, that while women now (not all, but a good majority) work full time, they are also expected to complete the majority of tasks around the house that a SAHM would do. Although men in most households contribute to some housework, USUALLY the majority of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, and child rearing is still left up to the women. In a sense, it is like females have two full time jobs. I know historically women have had jobs, but many were out of the home or part time, leaving them enough time to fulfill other household duties. I don't know how to remedy this problem, but I know many people under a lot of daily stress because of these new higher, sometimes overwhelming expectations. Watch some episodes of wife swap or supernanny, it happens on those shows all the time.

You do realize that feminism aims to fix that by deconstructing traditional gender roles that create the second shift for women? Feminism works to fight the idea that "second shift" tasks are solely women's responsibility. Women working outside of the home, and women working becoming mainstream and accepted and necessary for many families does not create a second shift: a culture of unfair labor divisions and sexist gender roles creates a females only second shift. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater here doesn't do shit: unfair gender based divisions of labor increasing working women's burdens does not mean that women working is bad, it means that unfair gender based divisions of labor are bad.

On the other hand, many women want to be treated as equals to men, but still expect men to pay for everything. Even if a women makes more than a man she is dating, it is still thought to be customary for men to pay for a date. If anything dutch, but rarely do you hear of a woman footing the bill. They also expect lavish gifts for every greeting card holidays, engagement rings, or "because I care" presents, without reciprocating the gesture. I won't get into alimony since usually women get custody of the kids. But i think that if women want ment to start taking them seriously, and receive equal treatment, then they should not expect to have these old traditions followed, as it looks like hypocrisy to me.

Your ancedata does not impress me, since I can counter it with some of my own! No one I know expects men to pay for everything. Regardless of salaries, everyone I know works out their own method of paying for dating, including splitting and switching off, so women equally foot the bill. And everyone I know gives gifts equally and in response to occasions they find important and reciprocates as is appropriate for them. So you seem to hang out with very sucky people and should probably work on that before deciding that the only reason you're allowed to attend that college (and become educated and thus be qualified to work at jobs previously not open to you because of your gender!) and have a great boyfriend (who isn't legally allowed to beat or rape you!) has mixed results. It doesn't.

Austin (another poster on here) eloquently explained something very important in another post. Here it is:

We've allowed the word "feminist" to be hijacked, and I for one, will continue to use it proudly. ,If someone refers to me as a feminist, even if they mean it in some derogatory way, I take it as a compliment. I don't hate men and I don't see them as inferior or superior. But I will never consider myself "less than" nor will I allow people to speak to me or treat me in ways that indicate that they believe I am "less than" because I am female. This does not mean I'm a man-hater. I love men. I married one and gave birth to three more and would gladly give my life for any of them.

I have to say, though, I am somewhat disappointed in a lot of the younger women that I meet. Some who are not even religious are quick to say when the subject arises very quickly, "Oh, I'm no feminist". Really? Exactly whose shoulders do you think you're standing on? is what I want to say and sometimes do. You are able to get an education and you can vote and run for office and own property and you can do a million other things that women 100 years ago did not take for granted or could not do altogether, and there are still many places on this planet where they cannot - which is just so unacceptable and hideous. Yes, things are still not perfect here (USA) and we still live in a society where heterosexual white men are still considered "the standard", and eveyone who is different in any way (gender, ethnicity, orientation, etc.) is considered a "one off" at the minimum. It remains a struggle and I'm sure nearly every woman who has been alive long enough and has not lived her whole life in a convent has her own story about those challenges. We need to be vigilant and continue to join forces with all the good people, many of whom are men, who rightly view us as equals to preserve all the gains we have made and make more.

Demanding equality in all the realms of society and freedom and education and the workplace and over our own bodies and all the rest is not some hateful, bitter belief or attitude. It's just believing the "radical" notion that women are human beings, too (as has been pointed out many times by others).

So any woman who is ashamed to be identified as a feminist. . . I am ashamed of her and for her. I'm tired of these women taking advantage of all that feminism has provided for them while disparaging all the people who made so many sacrifices on the behalf of all of us by equivocating over the very word.

Additionally, resources to educate yourself with: Shakesville's Feminism 101 series is a good starting point: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/ ... m-101.html, particularly http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/ ... to_26.html.

If you're actually male, there's a series particularly for you, called "Helpful Hints for Dudes," that starts here: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/ ... dudes.html

this smells like MRA to me.

[failsafe]

this smells like MRA to me.

Me too.

[failsafe]

Usually when my date and I are splitting the bill, I tell the waiter to bring seperate checks so this doesn't happen (usually in reverse, since I like my steaks)

I always forget! Then I feel like an asshole for asking the waitress to do it at the end of the meal - I was a waitress and it was sometimes a PITA, especially when one person ordered an appetizer and they shared it and who pays for that and crap I thought she took a bite of the dessert, so should I put that on her bill? It's much simpler if you know from the beginning as a server, but I always forget to ask at the beginning!

I am trying to be more conscious of it though, especially because last week I went on a date where I ended up spending $50 for a $9.95 chicken avocado sandwich and $4 on-tap beer. It was a terrible date (for many reasons) but he ordered several drinks, an appetizer, shrimp and steak entree and dessert and I INSISTED on paying my half (sometimes if someone offers I'll take them up on the offer, but not if I want to clarify that no, this isn't a date, we're just friends). The waitress had such trouble splitting (brought us the wrong receipts twice) that I just said screw it here, take my card and charge half and *get me out of here!*

[Burris]

...many women want to be treated as equals to men, but still expect men to pay for everything. Even if a women makes more than a man she is dating, it is still thought to be customary for men to pay for a date. If anything dutch, but rarely do you hear of a woman footing the bill. They also expect lavish gifts for every greeting card holidays, engagement rings, or "because I care" presents, without reciprocating the gesture. I won't get into alimony since usually women get custody of the kids. But i think that if women want ment to start taking them seriously, and receive equal treatment, then they should not expect to have these old traditions followed, as it looks like hypocrisy to me.

Weak sauce.

Women who expect men to foot the bill or buy "just because" gifts, and yet won't reciprocate even despite being able to do so, are jerks and they're not good dating material. That's not the case for a majority of women.

It's also not an indictment of feminism.

If anything, this attitude of female passivity - men buy gifts for women, men buy dinners for women, men do all the heavy lifting for women, etc. etc. etc. - is a hold-over from the period predating widespread feminist thought.

Feminism is about equality, so that men still do things for women, and women reciprocate; and women do things for men, and men reciprocate.

(This is akin to all that phony-assed hand-wringing some men do over whether 'feminism allows' for them to open doors for women still. Uh yeah, it does - and it allows for women to open doors for men, too. This is not fucking rocket science.)

[Kaylee]

I agree with feminism, but some parts of it muddle me a little.

If you're confused, try reading some of the feminist blogs out there or taking a couple women's studies courses. One thing that surprised me is how different feminism is and can be compared to the impression I had of it from "pop feminism" and ideas from others about what "those feminists" do and believe. (I started out as an anti-feminist and ended up majoring in Sociology then doing post-grad work in Women's Studies).

I think feminism has caused people to have unrealistic expectations of women.

You can't really blame the "second shift" on women. One of the things that feminism seeks to address is the roles and assumptions that cause the disparity between men's and women's work at home. Also, many women throughout history had to work - it's not just a new advance caused by feminism. Housework used to be much more involved as well, without the use of modern cleaners, vacuums, washing machines, etc, so it was more than a full time job even in the past. Even comparing women's work now to the "part time" or lighter jobs of the past overlooks how much work it was to take in laundry/ironing when women were making their own soap, boiling the clothes in washpots, and heating irons on a fire, the women working in the fields alongside their husbands or in fields or factories during wartime when the men were gone, or the slave women who would have been responsible for working all day and then tending to domestic duties if they were allowed to even be part of their own families.

I also believe that some women that embrace feminism also still hold on to some chauvinistic views, in a way "having their cake and eating it too."

As far as chauvinistic views, I think you make a lot of chauvinist assumptions yourself. For one, saying that "women want to be treated as equals to me". I don't want to be treated as an equal to anybody - the phrase itself makes it seem like men are the standard, and we should pretend women are as good as them.

I also think it's hard to use splitting checks on a date as an example, because the whole idea of the things you seem to view as beneficial to women started from chauvinistic traditions - men paid for the dates because women weren't expected to, or in many cases allowed to, have jobs (btw, I went to a college in the early 2000s that still forbid female students from working off-campus, while males were allowed to). That said, I probably paid for more dates than my husband while we were dating and still do now, but it would be hard for an observer to tell unless they were watching carefully enough to see the debit card come out of my purse (now, he will often take my card to the register to pay while I clean up and gather up our son's things from the table).

As far as alimony, and women getting custody of the kids, I think your confused. Alimony is spousal support, is increasingly rare, and can and has been ordered for ex-wives to pay for husbands who earned less than them. Child support is to support the child that a person fathered or birthed, and should be expected if you have a child you are not living with and providing for. There are abuses, but it works both ways. If a husband and wife agree for her to give up her career to be a stay-at-home mother or wife (or him to be a stay-at-home dad), then I do think alimony is fair at least to make up for lost wages/career advancement and give her a chance to catch up on skills or training that will allow her to get back into the job market.

Somewhat related to your point about men being "expected to pay for everything" on dates, I know a lot of women who are expected to pay for everything related to the home (groceries, cleaning supplies, furniture & decorating) and the children (doctor bills, clothes, formula, diapers, daycare, activities, etc) even when both spouses work, and that adds up to a hell of a lot more than a couple dinners out in hopes of getting laid. (For example, since we're using anecdata: 1.) my father-in-law paid for nothing when my husband was a child, because he decided after they were pregnant he didn't want kids. 2.) A friend of mine works part time, but pays for all the family's groceries and all of the kid's activities, clothes, and doctor bills. 3.) My sister has 3 children, paid all the bills and kept 2 different husbands up they he refused to hold steady jobs and wasted money on beer and drugs, and has received no child support at all. 4.) I paid all my pre-natal, L&D bills, etc because they were in my name, plus the cost for setting up the nursery, buy all the toys, books, and clothes, pay for doctors' visits, etc. I quit work to be a stay-at-home mom, so this took all my retirement money and most of my savings, so now I would be screwed in the event of a divorce).

[liltwinstar]

The subtitle of this book is endlessly annoying to me - as if all men hate feminism. My husband is a feminist, since he can see how feminism and living in a more-equal society benefits me personally, as well as the both of us as a family unit.

"Feminist" is not the same thing as "bitchy jerk." I'm a feminist; I'm also a kind, caring person and a good wife/partner. When my husband and I were dating, we split the check most of the time, although from time to time each of us would treat the other or buy fancy presents on occasion. Our relationship is based on respect of each other, not on who has the most power/money. Fortunately for us, we make about the same amount, so we didn't have the difficulty of navigating a relationship where one person makes way more than the other.

Anyway, in terms of the "second shift" - we're still negotiating that, and if you ask me, we don't *quite* have a fair partnership in that regard yet. But, in fairness to my husband, he's doing more house/chore stuff now than he was a year ago, and he fully recognizes that household stuff is as much his responsibility as it is mine. He is just...a bit lazy when it comes to chores; he's not sitting on his ass thinking that it's not his job, if that makes sense.

[BlondeAgent007]

I didn't use the term "all women" at all in my post. As I said, I posted to rake some mud. And yes, many people do expect men to pay the bills. When my boyfriend and I go to a restaurant, it's always a 50-50 chance that the bill gets handed to my boyfriend... if not it goes straight on the table. It never gets handed to me. How often do women reciprocate an engagement ring with an equally extravagant symbol of commitment?

My sister is a lawyer who makes more money than her fiance. She didn't want to have kids for a long time because she would rather focus on her career. Boy did she get a backlash for that from his Italian family. She has since changed her mind, grudgingly.

Stay at home mom definitely has a different stigma to it than stay at home dad.

When a man gets residential custody of kids in a divorce, it's usually because there is something seriously wrong with the mother's personal life. "Oh those poor kids, where is their mother?" A single divorced mother with children doesn't get a bat of an eye.

It appears to me that right now, women are between a rock and a hard place, while still clinging to the rock

[valsa]

And all this has to do with feminism... how?

[failsafe]

Lindsay Says, I don't think anyone is arguing that women's lives are easy. But things like women getting pressured to have children, stay at home dads being stigmatized, people handing the bill to your boyfriend instead of to you... that has absolutely nothing to do with feminism. In fact, feminism has fought AGAINST those kinds of things for many years.

[Patsy]

Men in the west are oppressed because: women expect them to pay for both their meals.

Women in the west are oppresed because: half their work is unpaid, the half that is paid is paid LESS than their male counterparts, rape is still rampant and impossible to convict, double standards in professional and personal areas, underrepresented in the media, sneered at and disrespected when they rise to a very high professional standard...

I'm not saying the cultural expectations of dates AREN'T a double standard, but I'm sorry, it's not oppression, and in light of the other side of the coin, I don't see why anyone should give a shit on anything more than a personal level.

And things that "Men's Rights" guys go on about have been helped by feminists. While "Men's Rights" guys (most of the men who actually take on the title and join the groups are abusive men who are angry their control over their children has been taken away... seriously, there have been analyses) are yelling about how rape convictions are soooo common, and boohoo, the court took my kids away after I beat the shit out of them, it's feminism that has said "Men can cry. Men can hug their babies. Men should not be sneered at for staying at home.* If a het partnered couple divide home labour and paid labour, and then split up, the woman should get alimony because she enabled his money-making and progress in his career [and, the flipside - just because he hasn't spent much time with the kids or doesn't have a closer relationship, doesn't mean he shouldn't have access/custody - it was his wage-earning that enabled her homemaking]." Most ACTUAL men's rights people who make a difference for that are, you know, feminists.

*I will acknowledge that some feminism HAS done a bit of what fundies accuse it of - devaluing traditional women's work. When pop culture takes that on it leads to saying that a man doing traditional women's work is funny, because it's worthless. Of course the fundie-like idea that being a women is shit, and therefore being LIKE a woman is an insult for a man, is also to blame there.

Sorry, no views on the book :/

[Freyacat]

There were newsletters all about how if we approved the ERA, women would be sent into combat against their will, there would be no maternity leave anymore, people would start living in communes and the family unit done away with, you name it.

Doing away with maternity leave would be some trick, since there is already no guaranteed maternity leave in the US.

[Moose]

Lindsay Says, I don't think anyone is arguing that women's lives are easy. But things like women getting pressured to have children, stay at home dads being stigmatized, people handing the bill to your boyfriend instead of to you... that has absolutely nothing to do with feminism. In fact, feminism has fought AGAINST those kinds of things for many years.

This.

And completely anecdotal evidence re: engagement ring- My partner and I didn't go with the whole diamond engagement ring specifically because of the lopsided power exchange/creepy ownership undercurrents/ethical issues that come with the tradition. I was the one to first suggest skipping it. We were going to get each other rings but we couldn't find anything dissimilar enough from wedding bands we liked; so instead he got me a goat and I got him one right back. Completely equal "extravagant" (for us) show of commitment. (The money saved was a nice bonus :))

As for the book- if it's Schlafly, it's retrograde gender-essentialism bullshit. Same garbage you'll hear on fundie blogs and MRA forums for free.

[eohiken]

Hey Patsy, could you point me in the direction of these analyses? I'd love to see some hard numbers on what I've known from personal experience to be true.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Doing away with maternity leave would be some trick, since there is already no guaranteed maternity leave in the US.

True - I know way too many people who have to cash in sick leave and diability just to cobble together a few weeks at home with a new kid. IIRC, her point was more that businesses wouldn't be able to offer it as a benefit anymore.