I'm a Reformed Person in VF/ATI circles. Ask Me Anything.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Hey Knight, Nice to meet you here. I was wondering, from your experience in Vision Forum and with Doug Philips, and from your perspective, the claim that women should not work or go to school but only be homemakers and godly women, was there a part of misogyny in all that?

Didn't they ever think of Deborah from the book of Judges, who was a political and spiritual leader? and other women like Hulda the prophetess, Judith, Jael, the Virgin Mary, Priscilla and Aquila the missionaries?

For some there is. For Doug, Geoff, Voddie, Marcus, and others, there is no (or very little) misogyny. Obviously a movement that has openings for exploitation by misogynists will be populated by misogynists. Misogynists become customers. As a business owner, what kind of products do you start to provide? Misogyny products, that's what. I think the doctrine is good, but continual focus and exploitation of the doctrine makes a good doctrine a bad doctrine.

They always find a way to clarify the roles of various biblical leaders, but they do advocate women in ministry alongside male leaders, such as those you've mentioned. They point out that Deborah actually submits to Barack's leadership, instead of usurping it, and the same in many other of the women. The patriarchal structure allows for a lot more female roles than the stereotypical cook and maid. They all agree with that. Not all of their extended community does though.

[QueenMother]

I didn't expect to find this at midnight and then get so caught up in reading I couldn't stop clicking to the next page--which kept creeping higher and higher! Great reading material tonight (which kept me from reading/finishing Breaking Dawn--the movie is coming out in November, and my son worked on editing meaning I will see the movie, and I wanted to read the read the book first.)

Thank you for all your time. I hope you be stay with FJ and share more as you are able.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Well, no sleep for me tonight. This is too good to miss.

Thank you for answering questions and being honest about what you know and don't know. I'm disappointed you don't know anything about the Maxwells but not surprised. You seem to have too much personality for them.

A few other posters have mentioned Brantley Disharoon, and I just wanted to ask that again:

Do you know Brantley? Are the past accusations against him well known in VF circles? What do people think of him?

Yeah, I wish I could deliver on that one. The Maxwells are just not around these circles, and I don't really track down the community. I spend time with people I like within the community I'm already familiar with. I should reach out more, it would be good for me, and give me more insight for the rest of you.

I have since answered many of your questions about Brantley, but in short: No, the past accusations are not well known, but they are known in the inner circles among those who are close to his close friends at least, and to everyone who checks FJ. People love Brantley. He's a hardworking, energetic, loveable blue eyed charmer of a guy.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Does Dougie have any relationship with the Bayly Bros.? Do they fit in at all with the VF crowd?

Oh, and have you ever met Kelly Crawford- is she as bitchy and evil in person as she seems on her blog?

I saw her at a distance with all the little cedar ducklings following her, including hubby. But I never said hello, and she had no reason to say hello to me. I smiled and nodded when one of the kids glanced my way.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

This is exactly the way I have always imagined Petey. His Bradrick.org endeavor is a whole new dimension of a scary, wrong, scam. At least we got him to change his ill-advised logo.

I'll never understand why lovely Kelly picked the big ginger spider, especially if she had as many options as you say.

He comes across as a man with a plan. Mission oriented, and A-type. I think people mistakenly confuse this for 'visionary'. Kelly may have done the same thing. But they had plenty of time to get to know each other, so this shouldn't have been a surprise to her.

[celestial]

Just wanted to say, I've read the whole thread up to here, and am riveted! Thanks for taking so much time to answer our questions, Knight! :clap:

[VeraAnne]

I'm glad to hear that the Coghlan girls are fun to be around. They've always seemed...spunky. Do you think that they will all stay in the VF lifestyle or do any of them seem likely to be more "worldy"?

[KnightInShiningAmore]

1. Reigned in? How so? Elizabeth has said she was the rebel in the family. Do you think that this is still the case? You've discussed their personalities a little, but they've always seemed very similar to me. How would you describe their personalities in general? They also come across as really serious most of the time. Are they funny in person? Who do you think they'll end up marrying? My money's on David Noor, John Moore, or JT Phillips.

2. Why aren't Lourdes and Andrew Torres married yet? They are so good-looking! Why aren't other fundies all over that?

3. What's the story with Nathaniel Darnell? Why isn't he married yet? He is cute, but he almost looks kind of ... sad, I guess.

4. What would happen if someone was secretly gay in VF/ATI circles? Do you suspect that there are closeted fundies? (And no, you don't have to name any names. I don't really think that Doug is gay, actually, in case you thought that I was referring to him.)

5. What do people like Doug, the Botkins, etc. think of FJ?

6. Do you think any fundies from well-known families will ever break away?

Um, Knight? You are AMAZING for answering everyone's questions! You are officially my favorite fundie!

1. They are very different girls. Anna is more conscious of family image, and Elizabeth more conscious of personal image. Anna tends to come across as more aloof, Elizabeth tends to be more aloof. Until they get to know you, then it's the other way around. I have no clue on who they'll marry. There was lots of time around JT and the two families are very close, but there's a pretty big age and maturity difference between them. I don't know John really well. Met him a couple times, he's only really around at conferences. He is a filmmaker and he seems grounded on a theological level, but Nathaniel Darnell is too, and he's been around a lot longer. Plus, he's in the right age zone. John seems more mature but he's still several years younger than the girls. This brings us to David Noor. I never got to know him very well. These days I only see him at VF events, and those are few and far between. From what I did get to know he's the best pick of the bunch. He's tight with the Botkin family already, right age range, has the kind of bearing and theological grounding necessary to be part of Geoff's team, and he's already tied into the family. It seems ideal, but in terms of personality and goals, he's nothing like the girls, and seems incompatible.

In short, none of the three are likely at this point, but David is highest on the list.

2. This is a mystery to me as well. I have no earthly idea. I don't think it's for any lack of desire on their part, (or on the part of others). I have no idea what the brakes are on that thing.

3. Ego. He's too good for anyone but the royalty of the movement, but he's not the kind of guy they're looking for. He's just a bit immature and full of himself. I said it more poetically and carefully in another post, but from what everyone says, this is his biggest problem. Also, I wasn't around when he 'retired' from Vision Forum, but I have my suspicions it was a less than peaceful separation, based on some hushed tones about his moving on. I look forward to the new VF catalog. If Nathaniel's movie isn't included in the products, it'll almost guarantee I'm right.

4. I have had my questions about people. I know incest is a big deal in a lot of fundie homes. And a lot of reformed homes, and a lot of catholic homes. It's a big deal. I suspect there are a lot of kids who have all sorts of temptations and fantasies that they never open up about and never share with anyone. It's too easy today to be aware of every potential sexual orientation and curiosity unhampered is curiosity insured. I think a bigger problem than closeted homosexuality, is young hormonal kids who wonder if they might be homosexual, and are frightened by that. I don't know. I'm speculating, and I promised I wouldn't do that.

5. They are partially disturbed, partially flattered, partially disgusted, and partially amused. Mostly the young people think it's interesting and funny, while parents view it as creepy and threatening.

6. I'm sure some will. But for most of these families it will take a long time. The kids have it pretty good, the parents are pretty great, and the life isn't that different from the rest of America. If anything it's better because for the most part, performance and peer anxiety is never a part of the social equation. So there will be breakaways, but mostly when these kids enter adult world without a game-plan.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

In my old age and with only the stamina of a worn out unmarried hopeless bachelor, I'm afraid I must stop for the night. It's past 2 here and I have a job in the morning. I've been answering these in the order they were posted, but I'm only at page 10. Six pages to go and some of the most difficult questions to answer tomorrow.

Thank you for the positive response, most of all thank you for keeping an open mind. I would agree with Doggie though. Don't just accept it and don't just assume that because I occasionally use humor and have a pretty good cultural awareness that I'm fairly unbiased. I am Reformed theologically, I do believe in Patriarchy as a doctrine, I am a five point Calvinist, and I do for the most part think fashion was better sixty years ago than it is today. Although I am glad women can wear pants today. Pants can be a heavenly thing on the right women. But regardless of all those things, most importantly, I love some of these people a lot. I think they're gold, and having seen some of them go through horrible, horrible hard times, I can verify that some of them are pure as driven snow, and deserve more praise than scorn.

I will do my best to answer the rest of these tomorrow after work.

[fundies_like_zombies]

Luv this thread! Just read 16 pages!!

[Sola]

I had so many plans for this morning. I got up intending to tidy up and sort out craft supplies which are threatening to take over the house, completely empty and reorganise my craft cupboard which is getting to the point where I cannot close the door as it's so full and I wanted to nip down to the opticians to get my daughter's glasses repaired for the umpteenth time.

Instead I got up, made coffee and breakfast then booted up my computer and saw this thread. It is now 11.30am and I have got nothing done other than get dressed and made the beds... I have however made it to the end of this 16 page thread!

Please come back Knight, when your aching fingers and wrists have recovered that is and I hope we haven't given you repetitive strain injury! I have so many questions running through my mind that my brain is all over the place this morning!

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

hi,

I'm from Australia-a very non religious country so this is all very interesting to me.

Anyway-my question is how many kids actually stay as fundy as their parents, become fundy lite or leave altogether?

Is the attrition rate a problem? Are the parents thought poorly of if the kids leave (aka Anna Duggars siblings)

Thanks!

[fundies_like_zombies]

Question - all these people seem to be in families that believe. How open are they to people who are not from a family that believes? Thinking of a couple of blogger girls who seem kinda into the VF thing but weren't brought up in it.

[Daenerys]

Count me in as another one who wants to know about the Josh Duggar 'sin in the camp' and what went on with Oprah...

[treemom]

I have never done anything unethical in looking up these people knight, like say looking at sensitive data myself, my husband or my friends would have access to.

My husband has a sensitive positions at FedEx. If I was a bad person I would ask him to look up these people's FedEx info. He would never, ever do that and I would never, ever ask. Seeing the house in a niedernagel picture once they moved made people look at houses recently for sale in Tennessee and I looked up tax and voting information. All on the interned, all publicly available and all legally accessibleand used only the information they have given us.

I am also not calling my friends at vanderbilt to find out if he was treated there no matter how curious I am. So you can be uneasy, but really I think you are wrong.

Also, regarding warehousing kids in beds like auschwitz, well you should sleep for 1/3 rd of your life and there is a preponderance of evidence that proper sleep is important part of disease prevention, mental health issues, etc.

[zcccrv]

Wow, Knight, that is some good stuff you have provided for us here. Thank you!

You are mostly familiar with Phillips/Botkin circles but I would like to join FJ folk who expressed interest with other families. Maxwells are very popular around these parts. :D Also interesting are Mortons/Sanders/Smiths, Servens, Thomases/Niednagels etc. The more bloggy kind of people are easier to follow.

And a question: do you think Josh Beasley is innocent and can you comment on the subject in general?

Edited to add the question.

[gilora]

Question(s):

What was the reaction in VF/ATI circles to the Duggars allowing Anna giving birth on the toilet to be shown on TV?

Who/what paid for Josie's medical care?

How do ATI folks reconcile not pursuing higher education with the reliance on advanced medicine/technology?

Thanks in advance!

ETA: What was the reaction in VT/ATI circles of Michelle Duggar's "handling" of Jason's accident?

[twin2]

This one is tough too. College as a system of quality education and certification of industrial competency has completely failed. But degrees are required to function in many roles, and some schools have good programs. Doug is not against degrees, he is against universities. There are ways to get degrees without universities, so I imagine if his kids needed one, they would use the Distance Education approach offered by College Plus, which Doug partners with and promotes. It's a lot cheaper than the traditional approach, but the degree and education are just as legit. Some would argue that the experience is not a legitimate college experience, but I think that's part of the advantage to VFers.

I don't think we'll be seeing any Phillips, Botkin, or Duggar children attending any traditional colleges.

You mentioned earlier that one reason you came here was to clear up misconceptions and I think this thread can also work to clear up misconceptions fundies have about us.

For example, I completely disagree with what you said above and what you said about VFs being scientifically aware (I won't go into why here as its not the thread for it). However, that doesn't mean I hate you, or I hate VF, or I hate Christians, it just means I disagree. Quite frankly I disagree with a lot of your philosophy, but I suspect you could be one discuss you POV and listen to mine. Most likely neither of us would change our minds, but whatever. A lot of the people we snark on seem to take any form of criticism as an attack and scream PERSECUTION!!!!!11!!!!

PS: I am glad they don't think microwaves are of teh Debil.

PPS: If in your research of the Maxwell, pay close attention to Miss Sarah, she is quite lovely and in dire need of Prince Charming.

ETA: I've had my morning coffee and have decided to revise some statements.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Don't just accept it and don't just assume that because I occasionally use humor and have a pretty good cultural awareness that I'm fairly unbiased. I am Reformed theologically, I do believe in Patriarchy as a doctrine, I am a five point Calvinist, and I do for the most part think fashion was better sixty years ago than it is today.

Yeah, I mean, on a personal level you seem... fine. On a deeper, broader level you're still full of shit. No patience whatsoever for patriarchy and given your views on the subject I have to say I think the world would probably be a better place without you (not that I wish you would, like, drop dead or anything - but I would prefer these ideologies to go the way of the quagga). It's cool. I don't think I'd accept anything you've said in this thread as truth unless I knew who you were, I mean, this is the fabulous internet where an older white dude can fool thousands as Gay Girl in Damascus. That said, in the spirit of the thread, I'd still like to second the questions that have been directed at you about Kelly Crawford, lord love her.

Also, from the format you used for the thread title: Redditor?

[debrand]

You've read the Girl With A Dragon Tattoo? Wow. That doesn't strike me as fundie reading. Have you seen the movie? I loved it. Although I'm a bit saddened that they are making an American version of the movie. I suppose that is a topic for a different thread.

The Philips and Botkins attitude toward military service actually rankles me a bit. As I said before, many members of my family have served in the military. My children are military brats and I grew up without a dad. I understand why people wouldn't want to join the military or might disagree passionately with military service. But none of those people are making money off the idolization of military service.

I know that you think that Doug Philips is a good person. But how much honor can a man have to make a buck off the deaths of soldiers? Even people who strongly hate America aren't so crass. If he or Botkin want to make money off of the service of military people they should encourage their own kids to join the military.

I don't mean to rant, but this really makes me angry.

[SpikedPeaches]

- Do you know the Vernier family at all? What are they like? What is their relationship like with the Botkin family (both parents-to-parents and children-to-children)? Are they good friends with the Phillipses? Would they be considered VF royalty? Are their children potential matches for Botkin/Phillips kids? (Can't find much info on them anywhere, so I'm very curious.)

- How are the Kendalls (from SC) connected with VF?

- Do you know the two youngest Botkin sons (Lucas and Noah) at all? I know some about them from other sources but I'd be interested to hear your take.

- Any info on the Turley family?

- You may not want to answer this one (I understand if you don't), but who are your closest personal friends within the movement?

- What do interactions between teenaged boys and girls look like? (For example: Josh and Justice Phillips, Charles Vernier, the younger Botkin boys, Liberty Phillips, the Vernier daughters, the Serven daughters... and others that I can't call to mind right now.) Is there flirtation going on?

(Sorry if you've answered these already -- haven't had time to look through all the pages yet.)

edited to add more questions

[formergothardite]

One thing that has struck me reading about how Doug and Beall practically make out in front of people, most of the people I know who do/have done that end up having crappy marriages. We just had some friends who were kind of like Doug and Beall, where you could leave the room to get something to drink and come back to find them passionatly kissing, he seemed to worship the ground she walked on, appeared to treat her like a queen, ends up he was cheating on her with anyone and everyone who would. So I don't take the fact that Doug has been seen making out with his wife as a obvious sign all is happy in paradise.

Doug also sounds self-centered. He has created this world where he can prance around the globe in costume selling a lifestyle that doesn't really exist. He is nothing more than a snake-oil salesman.

[masagoroll]

Thank you for answering questions! This has been a great thread. If you're fake, no harm, no foul, it was still fun to read. :-P

Don't feel like you have to answer every repeat question!

I have one question about the Torres kids--do you think that racism plays any part in people not marrying them? I'm a fellow Texan, and I feel like it's great here, but there are some people who still have some biases/preconceptions/weirdnesses against Hispanic people.

P.S. RE: my JTP and Elizabeth comment--I just couldn't resist when someone said "Is there anything BETWEEN them?" :lol:

[notsocommon]

Why do the Botkin girls have a 'guard' outside the bathroom at public events?

[Karsaroni]

Thanks again Knight for your openness and willingness to share. Sounds like the folks in the VF range from detestable to wonderful. I guess the same can be said for any large group of people... including us at FJ! Hah! I guess I want to believe that most are wonderful in all groups and so far what you've shared (grain of salt taken) it appears that way. Sort of relieving to me anyway. I think many/most of us here tend to think of the daughters in the Patriarchal world as Rapunzel in their perspective towers. Especially the Botkin girls.

Anyway, my question is:

-Is everyone in the VF world Quiverfull? It seems as if it's a feather in a new bride's cap to become preggo on their honeymoon and then to have a child every year after that (ala Kelly Bradrick). Do you think that many secretly practice some sort of birth control or is QF as rampant as it appears?

Thanks again for sharing!