Lori 67: Stop reading - it'll give you ideas

[Frog99]

I almost suggested on Alyssa’s post or story (wherever the parenting book reference was) that a great option would be “The Whole Brain Child” by Dr. Dan Siegel. When you recognize that behavior has a function/purpose and when you understand brain development and how to support whole-brain integration, you don’t have to resort to breaking your child’s will. 

My kids have strong personalities, and sometimes parenting them is hard- but I wouldn’t change it for anything. 

Alyssa doesn’t know any different- she had a dysfunctional upbringing and her friends seem to come from very similar mindsets. It’s sad. I worry that her little one will also grow up to have difficulties with disordered eating. 

[thoughtful]

28 minutes ago, klein_roeschen said:

And I even using "teach" for training my doggie. For me trainging is for something specific like training for a specific job or training a sport or an art or craft. And even in teaching my dog he was never beaten by me.

Same here. The process of teaching animals is different than teaching a child who has language, since we have to catch them in the act of some desired behavior, then give it a cue. But it's still teaching, and still best done with careful planning and kindness, not pain.

 

49 minutes ago, klein_roeschen said:

@thoughtful she was my former doggie, who died 2 years ago

She was adorable! Glad you are sharing your heart and your home (but not your beer!) with another dog.

[livinglongerthanyou]

Many of you know I have sled dogs (mostly Malamutes). I also have a black Lab who I strongly suspect is actually smarter than me. I've had sled dogs for 30 years. In teaching them how to pull a sled (it's mostly instinct), to sit for harnessing (cuz wrestling an excited 100 lb plus dog is no fun), to stop and wait patiently on the trail, to learn that going potty is to be done outside etc. I've never had to hit a dog to get my point across. The ONLY time I've ever struck a dog is when there is a fight and I needed to break it up. A fight between two Malamutes is a dangerous thing and it needs to be dealt with quickly. The strike is meant to hopefully get their attention and in that second I can pull them apart. When the dogs are separated I am usually really and truly pissed off, but I don't beat them. I change their positions in the team and give them a new partner to run with. 

Usually these fights are spur of the moment stuff and it's actually pretty rare. I didn't have a single scuffle last winter. 

It always puzzles me that I, and other dog folks, can train/teach animals without striking them and yet adults still want to hit their kids.

[thoughtful]

1 hour ago, SongRed7 said:

Things Lori would not approve of about this author: Went to college, speaks at women's conferences 

Dresses like this (well, she might be OK with it if Meg's husband approves):

Spoiler

 

[feministxtian]

no critter of mine has ever been hit (well except for my crazy-ass dog who LOVED getting smacked on the ass...the harder you did it, the happier he was). Pups were trained with pretty much positive reinforcement. One dog was crate-trained (w/o the crate, he'd eat the house). All we had to do was tell him to "go night-night" and he'd go in his crate. We didn't even have to close the door. He'd stay in the crate until he was told he could come out. Usually used when he was getting too rambunctious in the house, especially with company over. We'd ask him if he could be a good boy and he'd wag his tail and come out of the crate and be a good boy. 

The cats? Well...they're cats. Fully litter trained and can be coaxed off counters and table tops and out of bedrooms with cat treats. Fussing at them usually gets you that "I am cat, my ancestors were worshiped as gods, who the hell do you think you are" look. 

[usmcmom]

When our cats were still babies, we had them sleep in a spare bedroom at night. My husband actually trained them to run up the stairs when he said “bedtime, kitties.”  At first, he used the laser dot to lure them up. Soon, they would go without the dot, get a little treat and be tucked in their room for the night. Now that they are two years old and own the house we live in - heh - we tell them it’s bedtime and they blink at is. I’m pretty sure they flip us off too. 

Our sweet dog was also crate trained and, even when when had constant run of the house, she used to go into her crate when she was overwhelmed with all the kids hanging around.  Kids were taught if she was in her crate, they needed to leave her alone. Sometimes I needed a crate. Anyway, we had a space under the stairs in our garage and she liked to rest there sometimes too. I put a stack of blankets in that little “cave” and if she scratched at the garage door, that was her saying “even the crate isn’t gonna cut it right now. Get me to my cave.”  Wow, I miss that old dog. 

[Lgirlrocks]

My dog bella, who I got from a shelter, uses her house as her safe space. She loves to sleep in there when I’m not home. My last dog, who was abused so badly before I got her that she was afraid of everything, went in her house when she was scared. My big puppy, 125 lbs Newfoundland, goes in his house to calm down. I joke it’s pupper jail because he hates it. He is never in there more than a few minutes. 

[louisa05]

14 hours ago, Botkinetti said:

Lori and her posters sound like desperate children . They did everything right but somehow some of their children are using their own brains to make their own choices. They know they have been judgmental as hell about other families but now want someone to reassure them that it wasn’t their fault. 

And, of course, in the world these people inhabit , adult children being "unbelievers" may mean that they became Episcopalian or Methodist or (heaven forbid!) Catholic rather than remaining in the parents's denomination. 

[fransalley]

6 hours ago, feministxtian said:

You TRAIN dogs. You TEACH children.

Off topic:  A FB friend of mine had posted about the teaching of "precision obedience", meaning that "God has precise requirements and we are to obey them precisely".  

I Googled the phrase and you know what else came up?

Dog training.

Yeah, apparently God wants us to perform like animals so we can be rewarded with the spiritual equivalent of a doggy treat.  </sarcasm>

[feministxtian]

Besides housebreaking and a couple of basic commands, i never "trained" my dogs. They were pretty damn smart and could figure out things like "get out of the kitchen", "do you want to go outside?", "are you hungry?" and "do you want a treat?". W=A-L-K and R-I-D-E were always spelled lest the critters get completely out of control. One dog would have a fit when the breeze stopped at the car window because I'd stopped. He LOVED his WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND! God I miss those 2. 

Death and Destruction are snoozing. One is being all kitty-cat, curled up in a corner of the couch. The other one wouldn't know being kitty-cat if he was shown a movie, a power-point and posters. He's stretched out across the rocking chair with his head 180 degrees from his butt.

[Frog99]

The Godly mentor has an IG story up. In the first clip, she’s asking her father about his hospital stays (I don’t understand the point). Then she says she’s been busy working in her home today. She shows a big bowl of shredded lettuce (that will last them a week), three steamed beets that she will peel, a pot of her bland looking chicken soup (supposedly lots of garlic and onions), and her sourdough starter. So maybe 90 minutes of actual work (I feel as though that’s pretty generous). 

Also- that salad would be gone in two days for me. 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Frog99
Took out extra picture.

[Sarah92]

I grew up in a family that was okay with spanking: both children and dogs. My parents were influenced by "tradition". It was incredibly rare and I don't remember it actually ever hurting me. The dogs would get a flip flop.  I think upon reflection both my parents have come away from it, I know I have. 

I think it's interesting that the author notes using loss of privilege for older kids because it works with young kids too. I help parents and kids set up buy back systems that allow them to earn back lost privileges with good behavior. Kids have a say in if it's fair or not. Parents put a "price" on the item, usually electronics, and kids earn it back through positive behaviors that are given points. If they relapse  into old behaviors right after its taken away but given a higher value than before making it take longer to earn back. We make it fair and reasonable.  It teaches kids positive behaviors, responsibility for their actions, and it's done without hitting. We also combine that with rewards systems and accountability. If parents are consistent, it's really helpful. 

We have a dog that would snap up treats to the point where you had to check for all your fingers. Throwing the treat makes it to chaotic with another dog. I eventually just started gently bopping his nose with my finger and telling him "gentle". It responded to that really well. He occasionally needs reminders but we don't have that problem anymore. 

[livinglongerthanyou]

2 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

My dog bella, who I got from a shelter, uses her house as her safe space. She loves to sleep in there when I’m not home. My last dog, who was abused so badly before I got her that she was afraid of everything, went in her house when she was scared. My big puppy, 125 lbs Newfoundland, goes in his house to calm down. I joke it’s pupper jail because he hates it. He is never in there more than a few minutes. 

My Lab is Bella as well! She has a fancy AKC name which I seriously need to change to Bella the Labra-dork of the Deadly Farts. She is the first Lab I've ever been owned by and I am sometimes frightened about how much I love her. 

[Loveday]

I seriously want to know how Lori keeps that salad fresh in her fridge for a solid WEEK. I made a container of salad yesterday, thinking I'd have half last night and the other half this evening (I knew it wouldn't stay fresh much longer than that). Well, last night's salad was great. Tonight's...not so much. Granted, it was bagged salad, but it was well in date, fresh when I opened it, and I washed it and dried it as much as possible.  I mean, 24 HOURS? I guess it wasn't organic enough or something.

Maybe I should have coated it in her raw egg dressing.

[Hisey]

7 hours ago, livinglongerthanyou said:

Many of you know I have sled dogs (mostly Malamutes). I also have a black Lab who I strongly suspect is actually smarter than me. I've had sled dogs for 30 years. In teaching them how to pull a sled (it's mostly instinct), to sit for harnessing (cuz wrestling an excited 100 lb plus dog is no fun), to stop and wait patiently on the trail, to learn that going potty is to be done outside etc. I've never had to hit a dog to get my point across. The ONLY time I've ever struck a dog is when there is a fight and I needed to break it up. A fight between two Malamutes is a dangerous thing and it needs to be dealt with quickly. The strike is meant to hopefully get their attention and in that second I can pull them apart. When the dogs are separated I am usually really and truly pissed off, but I don't beat them. I change their positions in the team and give them a new partner to run with. 

Usually these fights are spur of the moment stuff and it's actually pretty rare. I didn't have a single scuffle last winter. 

It always puzzles me that I, and other dog folks, can train/teach animals without striking them and yet adults still want to hit their kids.

How interesting! I’m fascinated with sled dogs. I rode on a sled once and it was so much fun

1 hour ago, Sarah92 said:

 

We have a dog that would snap up treats to the point where you had to check for all your fingers. Throwing the treat makes it to chaotic with another dog. I eventually just started gently bopping his nose with my finger and telling him "gentle". It responded to that really well. He occasionally needs reminders but we don't have that problem anymore. 

Withdrawing the treat when they snap (while saying “nicely” or some other prompt) also works well.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Hisey

[Sarah92]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

Withdrawing the treat when they snap (while saying “nicely” or some other prompt) also works well.

It does! A firm nicely or gently works well with dogs. Part of using my hands and fingers was to guide him back into a sitting position. That and noise bops got his tail wagging because he loved it. He just got so excited for treats lol. He intimidated our other pound dog who was much more timid When it came to taking treats. 

Tbh one of my biggest pet peeves are people who do little to work with their dogs. It improves their quality of life in many ways. Some dogs don't need much work at all but it can vastly improve their life. I knew a girl who got a large dog on a whim and refused to crate train it. Said dog was an anxious mess that tore up everything it could when the owners were out. That's so dangerous for a dog. I really hope Lori doesn't have a dog. I feel bad enough for the unfortunate cat that she had. 

[klein_roeschen]

Has she only lettuce in her salat? I'm not the biggest fan of lettuce, I need some other veggie in my salat too and lettuce alone is not very satisfieing. And the picture of her "soup" looks not really appealing. The brocoli looks overcooked and if I spot it right, there's also zuchini and overcooked zuchini is so, so disgusting. The rest I can't spot. Colorwise, this soup would benefit from some carrots and tastewise as well.

2 hours ago, Sarah92 said:

It does! A firm nicely or gently works well with dogs. Part of using my hands and fingers was to guide him back into a sitting position. That and noise bops got his tail wagging because he loved it. He just got so excited for treats lol. He intimidated our other pound dog who was much more timid When it came to taking treats. 

Tbh one of my biggest pet peeves are people who do little to work with their dogs. It improves their quality of life in many ways. Some dogs don't need much work at all but it can vastly improve their life. I knew a girl who got a large dog on a whim and refused to crate train it. Said dog was an anxious mess that tore up everything it could when the owners were out. That's so dangerous for a dog. I really hope Lori doesn't have a dog. I feel bad enough for the unfortunate cat that she had. 

I'm in the middle of teaching my dog to sit down and take the treat gently, but he is a stubborn little guy and why should he sit down when he didn't have to do it with getting a treat from my brother, ugh. Seem's as I have to train my brother first. But besides that I'm lucky, he is pretty chill and friendly to boot.

[Lgirlrocks]

It not just being shamed it’s also not being able to afford them and a million other reasons. 

[smittykins]

10 hours ago, feministxtian said:

W=A-L-K and R-I-D-E were always spelled lest the critters get completely out of control. 

For the Shih Tzu/terrier mix we had when I was in high school, it was “B-A-T-H” and “R-I-D-E.”  One she liked, one she didn’t.

[freealljs]

In that soup, I see bits of cauliflower (overcooked) and black pepper, along with overcooked zucchini and broccoli.  I can't tell what her soup base is.  Does Lori even know what that is? That is one bland soup.  

Same with the salad. She could add some fresh fruit to it, add some color and flavor to it.

All this from a woman who claims to be a keeper of the home. Yikes, I would feel badly for Ken if he weren't such a twat.

[onemama]

19 hours ago, thoughtful said:

Quote

I believe with all of my heart that spanking in a way that is respectful and honors your child, and is done in a loving, controlled, precise manner will not only modify attitudes, improve behavior and strengthen the relationship between parent and child, but it will also point our children to the grace they receive from Jesus who has paid the ultimate penalty for all sin.

Quote

 

Spanking is not respectful and it doesn't honor your child. 

Done in that controlled, loving and precise manner, it is NOT going to point your children to grace.  At church, surrounded by all the nicely dressed, Sunday smiling people, they'll hear the songs the adults sing that tell about God's grace and love, and how Jesus paid for all our sins.  Downstairs, in children's church, they will sing about a Jesus who loves them and a God who keeps an eye on them, so "be careful little eyes what you see".  At home... they will still have to pay for their sins. That's a very confusing message. 

18 hours ago, SongRed7 said:

I find this trend so fake. It doesn't feel like real like of actual people I know. I don't know that I want to take my advice from them.  The underlying message: "if you are just like me you can have this beautiful photogenic life, too."   Without being too snarky, it looks like the kinda thing Alyssa would like. Afterall most of her social media pages are also filled with beautifully posed selfies and pictures. 

It's fake and depressing.  I had a look on her site and I couldn't stay long because it's all dizzyingly pretty and posed. I struggle with the girlfriend talk sites too (Jen Hatmaker or Lysa TerKeurst). Why can't people just be their normal selves online?  Perhaps that's just the way they are, but it seems fake to me. One trend is too posed, the other is too hyperbolic. 

As for her advice, I agree with you.  I recommend the book Families Where Grace Is in Place.  While not addressed to parents, the book He Loves Me! is an excellent study on God's unconditional love for us. If you understand that, how can you beat your children? 

[wallysmommy]

The word my dog Cosmo (who passed at 15 in 2012, many years diabetic and on insulin) was bath.  I would say "Do you want a bath?" and he would go to the bathroom and stand behind the toilet with his head facing the wall.  It was his way of if I can't see you, you can't see me.  

Talking about my dogs is cathartic to get my annoyance with Lori out of my system.

[thoughtful]

To teach a dog to take a treat gently, and only with permission, I like "doggy zen" (to get a treat you must give up trying to get a treat).

1. Have an OK treat in one hand, a fabulous one hidden in the other, behind your back (this is easier done sitting down). Show the dog the OK treat, then close your hand into a fist.

2. If the dog tries to get the treat from your closed fist, just sit there, silently (I have done this with many dogs, from a teeny Chi puppy to a full-grown mastiff, and never been bitten -- slobbered on, yes, but not bitten. Most try to gently pry my fingers open, some lick).

3. The split second the dog stops trying to get the treat (even if they only back off to catch a breath), give them the better treat from the other hand. I like a spoken cue, so I start saying "take it" at this point.

4. Raise the bar to expecting them to ignore the OK treat even in an open hand. If the dog tries to grab the treat, close your hand into a fist before they can get it (don't jerk your hand back  - chasing a moving object is exciting, and we want the dog focused on figuring out how to get a treat). Again, be silent. You can also show them that, even if you have the treat held out between two fingers, they need to wait for permission.

5. Repeat until the dog catches on that leaving the OK treat alone gets them the better treat. I've seen steps 1-5 happen in less than a minute, and I've never seen it take more than 5 -- dogs learn fast if they want something and aren't getting it!

6. Often, just doing the doggie zen training will lead to dogs taking a treat more gently, but you can raise the bar to include snapping your hand shut over the better treat if the dog is too rough, then offering it again. That "well, that didn't get me the treat . . . hmmm . . ." experience seems to work really well to inspire hesitation, slowing down, trying to figure out the game, even in dogs whose usual MO is to bounce and leap and grab.

7. Dogs can't be expected to generalize, so repeat the steps with the hands reversed, in different places in the house, while standing, while sitting on the floor, etc. Have all household members do it, so the dog learns it's always the same game. Eventually, waiting for permission to take a treat, and taking it gently, becomes habit.

I think the ideal is for humans to have a collection of cues (spoken, gestured and/or environmental) for desired behaviors the dog will do, so they don't have to resort to the vagueness of "no."

Sometimes it takes a two-part approach to get the behavior you want, and, for many dogs, this is one of those cases. Dogs are opportunistic eaters, so not grabbing food that is in reach is hard for them. If a toddler is walking around waving a cookie, or there is something tempting on the ground during a walk, the combination of lots of training to wait for the "take it" cue to take food, and other things you can ask the dog to do ("come" to call them away from the toddler, "heel" or some other cue for continuing on with the human for the walk) works well. Even if a dog is really tempted, they usually have developed a window of hesitation before grabbing, that you can use to redirect them.

 

[Hisey]

8 hours ago, Sarah92 said:

It does! A firm nicely or gently works well with dogs. Part of using my hands and fingers was to guide him back into a sitting position. That and noise bops got his tail wagging because he loved it. He just got so excited for treats lol. He intimidated our other pound dog who was much more timid When it came to taking treats. 

Tbh one of my biggest pet peeves are people who do little to work with their dogs. It improves their quality of life in many ways. Some dogs don't need much work at all but it can vastly improve their life. I knew a girl who got a large dog on a whim and refused to crate train it. Said dog was an anxious mess that tore up everything it could when the owners were out. That's so dangerous for a dog. I really hope Lori doesn't have a dog. I feel bad enough for the unfortunate cat that she had. 

It’s true, a little work goes a long way. Ultimately, it allows the dog to spend more time with you, because rhey are more pleasant to be around. I’ve had dogs for nearly 30 years and I’m far from an expert in training them. But I do know that they generally love the training.

[Koala]

Okay, can't resist!

My puppy 

Spoiler

Spoiler

He'll be 6 on July 2nd.