What do Trump and Caitlyn Jenner have in Common with the leader of ISIS

[Cartmann99]

@PregnantPornStar, have you ever done any reading on the issues that lead to people deciding to join a gang, work for a pimp, or end up in some of the Christian fundamentalist groups and churches we discuss here? Think of ISIS like one of the above examples. They initially provide a framework and sense of belonging to people who are feeling lost and unhappy with their lives, and promise answers to their problems. I'm not saying that ISIS members are innocent victims who just need a hug and and a cookie, I am saying that it's helpful to understand the dynamics of how and why a person can end up in such a group, so that we don't end up inadvertently helping ISIS to recruit new members. 

If someone is on the fence and ISIS can bombard them with examples of anti-Muslim feelings from westerners, do you think that such a person could possibly believe that millions of people hate them and so the idea of killing them before they can kill you takes root? If so, do you see how Donald Trump, and others like him, could possibly be used as a recruitment tool for ISIS?

[Whoosh]

5 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

<snip>

Muslims are not the only group under attack. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings

This one has been linked to the Boston Bombers. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Waltham_triple_murder

 

I am largely ignoring much that is being said here at this point, but I want to make sure everyone realizes what is happening and why it is just flat out bullshit.  Everyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but TO ME the snipped quote above seems to be trying to say that somehow the Boston Bombing lead to or was at least related to a triple murder HATE CRIME in Waltham.  If I am the only one that reads the snipped quote that way, my apologies - please downvote the shit out of this post and do whatever else you feel is necessary to put me in my place.  On the other hand, if anyone agrees with me in my reading of that quote - PLEASE READ THE REST OF THIS.

The Boston Bombings occurred in 2013.  In 2011, three men were killed in Waltham.  Two of the men were Jewish and it is likely the third was also.  It now seems highly likely that the older Boston bomber was one of the killers in the 2011 triple murder.  So are the two events linked beyond random chance?  Most likely, YES.  The evidence strongly suggests that the older Boston bomber was the perpetrator of both crimes.  Did the Boston Bombings lead to or cause the triple murder?  CLEARLY NOT, as the murders occurred about a year and a half before the bombing took place.

What really bothers me about the snipped quote is that it appears to say that the triple murder was "an attack" on a "group" other than Muslims.  If you find yourself taking that at face value, please know it is VERY MISLEADING.  PPS consistently makes these types of misleading statements in order to further and supposedly legitimize her Islamophobic and hateful agenda.  

What is the reality of the Waltham triple murder?  Was it a hate fueled attack against Jews?  Probably not, or at least not entirely.  The reality is that the older Boston Bomber to some extent grew up with one of the victims and they were friends.  In fact, the older Boston Bomber had described this victim as his "best friend" and they had lived together or had been roommates for at least a brief period of time prior to 2011.  Further, all 4 men (the 3 victims and the older Boston Bomber) were involved in drugs and the killers covered the bodies in thousands of dollars in marijuana and cash before leaving the scene. 

So what really happened?  No one knows for sure and the second suspect in the case was killed during the investigation after he allegedly attacked an FBI agent.  Despite that, a reasonable person can look at all the information available and conclude that many factors led to the triple murder and there is a possibility that perhaps one of the perpetrators was somewhat partially motivated by religion - maybe.  Then again, maybe not.  

tl;dr - PPS frequently makes grossly misleading statements to support her agenda and then provides links that "prove" she is right.  If you tend to take what she is saying at face value - don't.  At least click on the links she provides and see that she is at best mentioning one tiny aspect of a much more complex issue or situation if not flat out getting the entire thing just wrong.

[PregnantPornStar]

3 hours ago, Cartmann99 said:

@PregnantPornStar, have you ever done any reading on the issues that lead to people deciding to join a gang, work for a pimp, or end up in some of the Christian fundamentalist groups and churches we discuss here? Think of ISIS like one of the above examples. They initially provide a framework and sense of belonging to people who are feeling lost and unhappy with their lives, and promise answers to their problems. I'm not saying that ISIS members are innocent victims who just need a hug and and a cookie, I am saying that it's helpful to understand the dynamics of how and why a person can end up in such a group, so that we don't end up inadvertently helping ISIS to recruit new members. 

If someone is on the fence and ISIS can bombard them with examples of anti-Muslim feelings from westerners, do you think that such a person could possibly believe that millions of people hate them and so the idea of killing them before they can kill you takes root? If so, do you see how Donald Trump, and others like him, could possibly be used as a recruitment tool for ISIS?

I am in no way defending Trump. They (ISIS and such)  already WANT to kill us. Or defeat us. Drone strikes are happening now, so we are "killing them"....

I honestly don't want to get into semantics over the crazy that comes out of Trumps mouth, but really, there were radical Islamic terrorists prior to 9/11...and we didn't have a lot of anti-muslim discussions happening at that point. 

Anyway, it is taking a bit of "mental gymnastics" to categorize Trump with al-Baghdadi. 

I will be completely fair and give a Trigger Warning here. The link talks about sexual abuse among other things. 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-sexually-abused/story?id=33085923

Trump isn't anywhere near as horrific a person as the leader of ISIS. Ask Kayla Mueller, ask the Yazidis, etc. 

Regarding "have I done any reading on the issues that lead people to join gangs, etc" Social Work is my pre-army spouse background, so I have a little insight.  

First, it isn't as simple as you are painting it. I am sure you understand that. However, I think there is something to be said about things that could lead individuals to join ISIS. Not all of these people feel lost, however, one thing I can point out is that immigrants tend to assimilate better in the US than they do in Europe. Certain groups of immigrants tend to assimilate better than others. So, what is working better for some? What is hurting others?

Part of the problem is also radical imans being sent to work at Mosques that are funded by those who are using Salafist/Wahhabi propaganda. When you are Muslim and the only Mosque(s) in town are radical, and you want to seek out people who are "like you", you might decide to head to the radical Mosque, regardless. Maybe you get really involved, maybe even radicalized, but don't commit any acts of terrorism, (you might condone it)  but then your children do become radicalized. 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kalashnikov-ammunition-isis-propaganda-seized-after-paris-mosque-closure-1532108

So, France closes down three Mosques, raids follow and ammunition for fully automatic assault rifles and ISIS propaganda is found.  

What is the answer to this? 

 

[Jingerbread]

13 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

I understand it isn't an award. Thanks. 

Ayatollah Khomeini has also been person of the year.  While Hitler, Khomeini, Stalin and Khrushchev are all "no-excuses" bad, I think, being that the internet is what it is, we are all connected more than ever and ISIS is using the internet to recruit young soldiers globally, it was not only distasteful given the past month, but also irresponsible. 

Still, not impressive to list Hitler as Person of the Year either. But, that doesn't mean I can't bitch about the leader of ISIS being on the list.

What I think we should bitch about is how someone so deplorable and evil can have so much power.  Ignoring the power he holds will do more harm than good.

[PregnantPornStar]

3 hours ago, Woosh said:

I am largely ignoring much that is being said here at this point, but I want to make sure everyone realizes what is happening and why it is just flat out bullshit.  Everyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but TO ME the snipped quote above seems to be trying to say that somehow the Boston Bombing lead to or was at least related to a triple murder HATE CRIME in Waltham.  If I am the only one that reads the snipped quote that way, my apologies - please downvote the shit out of this post and do whatever else you feel is necessary to put me in my place.  On the other hand, if anyone agrees with me in my reading of that quote - PLEASE READ THE REST OF THIS.

The Boston Bombings occurred in 2013.  In 2011, three men were killed in Waltham.  Two of the men were Jewish and it is likely the third was also.  It now seems highly likely that the older Boston bomber was one of the killers in the 2011 triple murder.  So are the two events linked beyond random chance?  Most likely, YES.  The evidence strongly suggests that the older Boston bomber was the perpetrator of both crimes.  Did the Boston Bombings lead to or cause the triple murder?  CLEARLY NOT, as the murders occurred about a year and a half before the bombing took place.

What really bothers me about the snipped quote is that it appears to say that the triple murder was "an attack" on a "group" other than Muslims.  If you find yourself taking that at face value, please know it is VERY MISLEADING.  PPS consistently makes these types of misleading statements in order to further and supposedly legitimize her Islamophobic and hateful agenda.  

What is the reality of the Waltham triple murder?  Was it a hate fueled attack against Jews?  Probably not, or at least not entirely.  The reality is that the older Boston Bomber to some extent grew up with one of the victims and they were friends.  In fact, the older Boston Bomber had described this victim as his "best friend" and they had lived together or had been roommates for at least a brief period of time prior to 2011.  Further, all 4 men (the 3 victims and the older Boston Bomber) were involved in drugs and the killers covered the bodies in thousands of dollars in marijuana and cash before leaving the scene. 

So what really happened?  No one knows for sure and the second suspect in the case was killed during the investigation after he allegedly attacked an FBI agent.  Despite that, a reasonable person can look at all the information available and conclude that many factors led to the triple murder and there is a possibility that perhaps one of the perpetrators was somewhat partially motivated by religion - maybe.  Then again, maybe not.  

tl;dr - PPS frequently makes grossly misleading statements to support her agenda and then provides links that "prove" she is right.  If you tend to take what she is saying at face value - don't.  At least click on the links she provides and see that she is at best mentioning one tiny aspect of a much more complex issue or situation if not flat out getting the entire thing just wrong.

Ummm, okay....

Jesus Christ on a stick...you are so off base with what I am "trying to say" that...I just can't even. Your reaction to this is so...extreme? I don't even know. I mean...linked to the "Bombers" isn't the same as the "Bombing" although...I mean...the perpetrator is kinda a big deal when we are talking about someone who committed multiple crimes. Anyway...

 

[Jingerbread]

8 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

Really, I will say it again. Trump isn't ISIS. He isn't on the same level, whatsoever. You can try to argue differently, but I think Trump is simply a showman. In fact, whenever he says something ridiculous, his ratings go up. I don't even think it is because people agree with him, most don't seem to, but because he is saying something other than any "typical party line"  He knows exactly what he is doing. 

You seem to think Trump is benign.  He's whipping anti-Islamic sentiment up into a frenzy in this country.  Brown-skinned people are scared they'll be attacked for being Muslim, even if they aren't.  Kids are scared to go to school if anyone knows they're Muslim.  Trump is giving a rallying point to bigots, and that's encouraging more of them to come out of the woodwork and band together, and this is dangerous.

He's not a showman.  He's an active danger who is helping show potential ISIS recruits that the US hates them (all of the US, since Trump gets so much airtime), and that could be the push they need to join.

[PregnantPornStar]

9 minutes ago, Jingerbread said:

What I think we should bitch about is how someone so deplorable and evil can have so much power.  Ignoring the power he holds will do more harm than good.

Absolutely don't think ignoring him is the answer. I am just saying the "Person of the Year" runner up is probably not the best way to present him. JMHO. I have absolutely no problem bitching about him. 

[Whoosh]

14 minutes ago, PregnantPornStar said:

Ummm, okay....

Jesus Christ on a stick...you are so off base with what I am "trying to say" that...I just can't even. Your reaction to this is so...extreme? I don't even know. I mean...linked to the "Bombers" isn't the same as the "Bombing" although...I mean...the perpetrator is kinda a big deal when we are talking about someone who committed multiple crimes. Anyway...

 

Your point was not that the Boston Bombers were bad, bad dudes that committed multiple crimes.  Your point was that groups other than Muslims are "under attack".  You tried to use this 2011 triple murder as "proof" of that.  I would agree with you that the whole thing is absurd, as you can EASILY and READILY find examples of recent hate crimes in America that had nothing to do with the Boston Bombers.  I get why you wouldn't, however, considering what I think your goal is here.  A skosh of intellectual honesty would be something to consider.

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick indeed.  

[Jingerbread]

5 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

Still, when I lived in Germany I often had people say some of the most hateful things to me about Obama. I was under the impression that Obama was well loved, but...nope. In fact, I had a Turkish guy in my local doner shop go on the LONGEST and craziest Obama rant I have ever heard. My point isn't to bash Obama. I am certainly not a Trump fan, and I wasn't a fan of Bush....anyway, I am just rambling over this.  I don't think we have a single candidate that is "good" and I find that depressing.

Right-wingers screaming loud enough about how Obama is to blame for everything in the world is what people will hear the most.

Tell me what keeps Bernie Sanders from being a good candidate.

22 minutes ago, PregnantPornStar said:

Ummm, okay....

Jesus Christ on a stick...you are so off base with what I am "trying to say" that...I just can't even. Your reaction to this is so...extreme? I don't even know. I mean...linked to the "Bombers" isn't the same as the "Bombing" although...I mean...the perpetrator is kinda a big deal when we are talking about someone who committed multiple crimes. Anyway...

 

What's up with the random quotes?

[Whoosh]

Just now, Jingerbread said:

Right-wingers screaming loud enough about how Obama is to blame for everything in the world is what people will hear the most.

Tell me what keeps Bernie Sanders from being a good candidate.

 

#burningforBernie

#Sandersfangirl

[PregnantPornStar]

Just now, Jingerbread said: Right-wingers screaming loud enough about how Obama is to blame for everything in the world is what people will hear the most.

Tell me what keeps Bernie Sanders from being a good candidate.

 

#burningforBernie

#Sandersfangirl

Oh Bernie. I don't dislike Bernie. I don't want Bernie for president....I could get into why, but I won't. Says a fellow Vermonter...so, I heart his VT roots, I heart his ideals, but in practice, I don't agree with the plausibility. That's my short answer.

PS, until very recently, Bernie has always been "pro-gun". It is the Vermont thing to be, so...there is that....

One thing I will say, I think the fact that there is so much Bernie excitement and Trump excitement is interesting. And again, shows exactly how much our two party system is failing us. Bernie isn't historically a dem (or a "traditional" one) and the same goes for Trump.. (Obviously referring to GOP here)

In regards to Obama...I don't think the world is only listening to right-wingers. They are listening to him....

I meant to quote Jingerbread. I am on Tapa and trying to get my toddler back to sleep. Sorry.

[Cartmann99]

14 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

Anyway, it is taking a bit of "mental gymnastics" to categorize Trump with al-Baghdadi.

 I never said that Donald Trump has or will commit acts of violence against other people. I do think that others could take his words to heart and decide to commit acts of violence themselves, though. I personally wouldn't sleep well at night if someone took my words as a motivation to commit acts of violence, but it seems that not everyone has that same moral constraint.

14 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

Regarding "have I done any reading on the issues that lead people to join gangs, etc" Social Work is my pre-army spouse background, so I have a little insight.  

I did not intend my words to come across as a snarky statement, I meant it it as a geniuine question with no malice intended. I personally think uncovering what motivates people's actions a fascinating subject. It was honestly not a "Do you even read?" type slam on your intelligence. I apologize if it came off that way.

14 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

First, it isn't as simple as you are painting it. I am sure you understand that. However, I think there is something to be said about things that could lead individuals to join ISIS. Not all of these people feel lost, however, one thing I can point out is that immigrants tend to assimilate better in the US than they do in Europe. Certain groups of immigrants tend to assimilate better than others. So, what is working better for some? What is hurting others?

Yes, I was simplifying it. I also freely admit that I don't have all the answers to the question of how do we prevent people from joining groups like ISIS. 

15 hours ago, PregnantPornStar said:

Part of the problem is also radical imans being sent to work at Mosques that are funded by those who are using Salafist/Wahhabi propaganda. When you are Muslim and the only Mosque(s) in town are radical, and you want to seek out people who are "like you", you might decide to head to the radical Mosque, regardless. Maybe you get really involved, maybe even radicalized, but don't commit any acts of terrorism, (you might condone it)  but then your children do become radicalized.

1) If these radicals have not themselves committed acts of violence, but their words have motivated others to commit such acts, are they morally responsible for the actions of others?

2) If Donald Trump (or others who share his point of view) have not committed acts of violence, but their words have motivated others to commit such acts, are they morally responsible for the actions of others?

It starts getting slippery here for me. I believe it's morally wrong to rile people up with inflammatory language and then claim innocence when another person choses to commit acts of violence because of your words. That said, each person does have to accept responsibility for their own actions, but I sure wouldn't sleep well at night if I felt my words had contributed to an act of violence.

I wish I had the ability to make everyone on this planet live in peace with each other, but I know that's just a dream. 

I'm out, got things I need to do.

[GodsKnickers]

50 minutes ago, Cartmann99 said:

It starts getting slippery here for me. I believe it's morally wrong to rile people up with inflammatory language and then claim innocence when another person choses to commit acts of violence because of your words. That said, each person does have to accept responsibility for their own actions, but I sure wouldn't sleep well at night if I felt my words had contributed to an act of violence.

 

Every time Trump (and others of his ilk, inside the party and out) opens his mouth, all I can think of is that he's essentially yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

[Rachel333]

Eh, person of the year isn't that big of a deal. I mean, I was person of the year in 2006.

[nelliebelle1197]

Don't bother with arguing with this person. She is obviously a bigot or worse, and thus it is pointless to argue. I spotted something off in her early postings in the Duggar threads and just choose not to engage. Not worth the time because it is pointless.\

I am super happy to see Whoosh loves my beloved Uncle Bernie (yes, I have been convinced for years Bernie is my long-lost uncle even though I am not Jewish and am from the South).