Speaking of being PC...

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Hmm.  If you spell it correctly when you google you don't get porn.  I suppose that says something about porno sites. 

Dirndl = traditional dress or peasant dress, and servants' dress.  I want to know where @‌PregnantPornStar got "slave."

 

 

Sorry about that...riffles in a web search can lead to dark places.  I really shouldn't Google without my glasses on.

[Palimpsest]

Sorry about that...riffles in a web search can lead to dark places.  I really shouldn't Google without my glasses on.

I know the feeling about googling sans eyewear. 

Thanks to ‌@Anny Nym for her entry into this thread.  Wikipedia has its limitations.

[PregnantPornStar]

If you say servant, please don´t think of Downton Abbey-like victorian maids.

Who was a "Dirn" (austrian/bavarian for maid-en - double meaning for working girl at a farm and Girl/Young unmarried woman. Also hence the name for the dress) was a way more complex issue. You have to highly take early "Kleinhäusler/Keuschler/Halbbauern"  (translation: small farmers/tenancy farmers) into context, a agrarian working class - not to mix with the urban working class - who had their own vivid culture, for instance alot of craftmanship,  and indeed their own history. A very fascinating one, I have to add. 

To make a Dirndl, it takes also alot of craftsmanship: The embroideries alone are a form of art. There is also not " the Dirndl" , almost every Region in Salzburg, every Viertel in Lower Austria and every Tal (valley) in West Austria has their own style and colours.

 

AND IT`S CERTAINLY NOT ABOUT "SLAVES, FUN AND BEER"! WHAT THE FUCK, SERIOUSLY!?

 

I take high personal offence in this!

Oy, That isn't what I meant. I know better than that and I think (or like to think) most people know better than that, but when people first think of a Dirndl, they quickly think of Oktoberfest, rather than the class of women who historically wore Dirndls. 

I don't think people generally associate a dirndl with slaves or peasants, but beer and fun.

I honestly didn't mean to be offensive. It was kind of my point. People are not accused of cultural appropriation when wearing a Dirndl (or Lederhosen), yet, the history isn't all "sunshine and rainbows" so to speak. So, "Slave" was probably a really bad choice, and my mistake, but it was always my understanding. I mean, I generally considered it "peasant" or "servant" clothing, but I believe my mistake, and a few friends I spoke, is possibly a language issue.  When I was Dirndl shopping in Germany, the woman helping me was explaining the history and actually used the word "slave" and multiple other friends of mine are insisting the same thing was explained to them. 

So, this evening I asked a couple of my German friends to explain it better to me. It took a bit, but we have all come to the conclusion that "serf" would have been a better word, but "slave" was how it was explained to us.You can correct me here, but a German friend of mine is insisting that serfs are often perceived as slaves in Germany.)   I was also pointed in the direction of German wiki...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibeigenschaft

and also, we ended up discussing the word "Dirndl" which I had always believed was also a "Low German" word for "girl" but apparently there is more to it than that. 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirne

Also, owning more than one, I tend to like a super simple look the most. I think the details in my less "traditional" and more "expensive" are gorgeous, but I just like simple. 

So anyway, my bad. I apologize for offending and learned new things tonight. I also learned that my German sucks even more than I thought it did.

I do absolutely LOVE wearing a Dirndl and wish it was acceptable to wear it all the time, but it is not, so I won't, but when talking about dressing up, give me an event where I can wear a Dirndl over one where I need to hunt for a formal gown any day. 

My most recent event was this fall at our "Oktoberfest" on post. I consumed a lot of beer and danced with the kids ALL night. Tons of fun, not the real thing, but, it will have to do for now. 

[PregnantPornStar]

Also, I will respond to the Yale stuff tomorrow. It is WAY past my bedtime and I am still kicking a pretty nasty cold. 

[FundieFarmer]

I'm not going to get into the semantics of the wording, partially because I actually have no knowledge to be able to contribute...but I do think PPS has an interesting point about the lack of accusation of cultural appropriation for dirndls/lederhosen. The same could be said for kilts and tartans- especially tartans that specifically belong to a family or clan.

It's late, so I very possibly am not reading this right. But it does look like a double standard on the surface.

[Anny Nym]

@PregnantPornStar

A shop assistant explaining it to you by using the word "slave", that sounds more like a case of, pardon my language, " touristsplaining"  honestly ... And a quite odd case, that´s for sure. Definitely never heard it being put that way to someone! How very rude of her!

 

When we wear Tracht <- traditional clothes like Dirndlgwand or Lederne, a Lodenmantel, a Steireranzug and prominent  accessoires like the Tirolerhut, we certainly don´t  see it as a "servant costume" and certainly not as something to be worn for other´s amusement and for them to emulate for the sake of getting drunk in it  (.... *sigh*...) - instead it is with all its different elements part of our historical identity - one which often had to include fighting for our autonomy and sly (yes, sly!)  resistance against heteronomy and and a development of our own identity over the centuries <- you see, a complex construct.  And also part of our regional identity with all it´s variations - which is a quite serious taken thing here too. We take alot of pride in our alpenländische und bäuerliche Traditionen - the vast, multi-facetted inherited traditions of  peasant/farmer folk culture.

And I am also talking out of some personal involvement here, so I hope you now understand why I feel so strongly about this subject : My maternal family owns and works a big farm/Gutshof, with including my uncle, now since the early 1600s on the same land. My siblings and me spent a great part of our childhood there, I did get alot of insight about how hard and complex farmwork is and how important it is to preserve traditions, and over all I was raised to greatly RESPECT that.

Not to forget to add Tracht connects the social classes more than it divides them. Already did back in the days when the archduke and the emperior started to wear it instead of pomp clothing. You are always dressed right with traditional clothing, a generally accepted dress code.

It´s a piece of Heimat, as my (technically step- but loved like a genuine) grandfather, who spend  over 40 years abroad on the other side of the world, would have put it. Not something to belittle and to be worn like a carnival costume!

 

Which leads me right to @FundieFarmer´s "but I do think PPS has an interesting point about the lack of accusation of cultural appropriation for dirndls/lederhosen. The same could be said for kilts and tartans- especially tartans that specifically belong to a family or clan."

 

Good thing to point out, FF, thank you !

 

 

[latraviata]

I think the cultural appropriation thing such as e.g. Dirndls, tartans, Volendam costume, clogs and French beret are a bit far-fetched and I am afraid it leads to a very prudent and humorless world world.

[Anny Nym]

There is a time for fun, however it doesn´t mean all gates are open for belittlement and cultural ignorance.

This two things are not mutually exclusive.

[latraviata]

I love this! It perfectly reflects how I feel about about this ridiculous PC terror!

[latraviata]

There is a time for fun, however it doesn´t mean all gates are open for belittlement and cultural ignorance.

This two things are not mutually exclusive.

What is fun and what is belittlement? This is a serious question, how do you define it?

[Anny Nym]

Look, latraviata - there is a difference between having fun at the Oktoberfest in Munich while wearing a genuine Dirndl or a Lederhosn (yes, even as a tourist! I´m not taking away Cuteneurorad´s Lederhosn or PPS Dirndl here, if they buy one - for example - in Munich while on vacation and then attending the Wiesn) and actually treating traditional clothing like it´s just a  freakin´ costume for the sole purpose of touristy "Oh look, it´s my drinking dress"/hipsteresque amusement and enacting of every kind of negative or ridiculous stereotype by mocking traditional clothing.

Or treating people wearing traditional clothing like exhibitions of a Human Zoo, this includes taking photopraphs without asking or assuming people wear it solely for the purpose of being gawked at. Also touching it, make infantile statements, treating it like a carnival costume... just generally being a ignorant ass.

 

Really, there is a difference!

 

[latraviata]

Look, latraviata - there is a difference between having fun at the Oktoberfest in Munich while wearing a genuine Dirndl or a Lederhosn (yes even as a tourist!) and actually treating traditional clothing like it´s just a  freakin´ costume for the sole purpose of touristy/hipsteresque amusement and enacting of every kind of negative or ridiculous stereotype by mocking traditional clothing.

Or treating people wearing traditional clothing like exhibitions of a Human Zoo, this includes taking photopraphs without asking or assuming people wear it solely for the purpose of being gawked at. Also touching it, make infantile statements, treating it like a carnival costume... just generally being a ignorant ass.

 

Really, there is a difference!

 

Okay, fair enough! In this I agree with you with the latter paragraph!

[2xx1xy1JD]

I did like Maher's comment about lazy liberalism and pretending to do good.  I don't have much use for using hyper-sensitivity as a badge of how wonderful you are if you don't actually get off your ass and do anything.

[PregnantPornStar]

I have so much to say on this thread and have had such a nutso day, so I am going to try to respond now (just give me a bit). I spent part of my day in the ER with my six year old son. He is fine, just ear infections, but he was in pretty bad pain this morning and it is his first time ever having antibiotics...it seemed to come on quickly. I am a tad tired as we have all been wicked sick. We never get sick like this. Ever, so, I am blaming the great state of of Kentucky. 

[PregnantPornStar]

@PregnantPornStar

A shop assistant explaining it to you by using the word "slave", that sounds more like a case of, pardon my language, " touristsplaining"  honestly ... And a quite odd case, that´s for sure. Definitely never heard it being put that way to someone! How very rude of her!

 

When we wear Tracht <- traditional clothes like Dirndlgwand or Lederne, a Lodenmantel, a Steireranzug and prominent  accessoires like the Tirolerhut, we certainly don´t  see it as a "servant costume" and certainly not as something to be worn for other´s amusement and for them to emulate for the sake of getting drunk in it  (.... *sigh*...) - instead it is with all its different elements part of our historical identity - one which often had to include fighting for our autonomy and sly (yes, sly!)  resistance against heteronomy and and a development of our own identity over the centuries <- you see, a complex construct.  And also part of our regional identity with all it´s variations - which is a quite serious taken thing here too. We take alot of pride in our alpenländische und bäuerliche Traditionen - the vast, multi-facetted inherited traditions of  peasant/farmer folk culture.

And I am also talking out of some personal involvement here, so I hope you now understand why I feel so strongly about this subject : My maternal family owns and works a big farm/Gutshof, with including my uncle, now since the early 1600s on the same land. My siblings and me spent a great part of our childhood there, I did get alot of insight about how hard and complex farmwork is and how important it is to preserve traditions, and over all I was raised to greatly RESPECT that.

Not to forget to add Tracht connects the social classes more than it divides them. Already did back in the days when the archduke and the emperior started to wear it instead of pomp clothing. You are always dressed right with traditional clothing, a generally accepted dress code.

It´s a piece of Heimat, as my (technically step- but loved like a genuine) grandfather, who spend  over 40 years abroad on the other side of the world, would have put it. Not something to belittle and to be worn like a carnival costume!

 

Which leads me right to @FundieFarmer´s "but I do think PPS has an interesting point about the lack of accusation of cultural appropriation for dirndls/lederhosen. The same could be said for kilts and tartans- especially tartans that specifically belong to a family or clan."

 

Good thing to point out, FF, thank you !

 

 

Firstly, I don't think it is "touristsplaining" or that she intended to be rude, whatsoever. I think it was probably an over-simplification, and in all fairness, semantics are probably not worth fighting over with this discussion because I think everyone is willing to understand and even concede to the fact that "slave" was a bad word to use, but "serf" and "peasant" ARE correct to use. Truly, when it was explained to me  it was absolutely not done in a derogatory way, but rather someone who seemed excited to tell me about it and excited that I was so excited about it. My husband had just got back from a deployment and was excited to buy one for me, I had held off since we got to Germany so he could go with me my first Dirndl.(The one in the photo) We were on vacation in the Alps and I remember trying on so many and the woman was so kind and so excited about Dirndls. Mostly, she seemed to want to share with me that it is NOT about Oktoberfest, but rather, that such events are simply where it is most often worn in modern times. 

Also, explained in all of this was that as in the second bolded, it CONNECTS, rather than divides. THAT is EXACTLY my point with all of this, and as FF noticed, I am talking about a double standard. Is it because "Germans" are white/european? I don't think we can argue that traditional wearing of a dirndl was of people who were oppressed by Feudalism. Eventually it was adopted by others and, as you said, connected rather than divided. THAT is huge and 100% my point. Now, it is also connecting the rest of the world. I think Oktoberfest is a great example of that. While, maybe a lot of people are thinking of a giant fest and lots of beer, it is also worth nothing that millions of tourists come from all over the world to "connect" and enjoy a part of a culture TOGETHER. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/world/europe/dirndl-dress-of-past-makes-a-comeback-in-bavaria.html?_r=0

Now, for me, there are a few things that bother me a bit. Not so much in the sense that I find it disrespectful (though not that I don't I guess, but respect isn't even my point) but absolutely silly. Silly "sexy dirndl" Halloween costumes almost seem foolish and laugh worthy to me, because, a traditional Dirndl is absolutely beautiful to me. The cut, the look, the tradition....seriously, I am a HUGE dirndl fan, so I simply cannot wrap my brain around even wanting a costume version of a dirndl versus the REAL thing. 

Look, latraviata - there is a difference between having fun at the Oktoberfest in Munich while wearing a genuine Dirndl or a Lederhosn (yes, even as a tourist! I´m not taking away Cuteneurorad´s Lederhosn or PPS Dirndl here, if they buy one - for example - in Munich while on vacation and then attending the Wiesn) and actually treating traditional clothing like it´s just a  freakin´ costume for the sole purpose of touristy "Oh look, it´s my drinking dress"/hipsteresque amusement and enacting of every kind of negative or ridiculous stereotype by mocking traditional clothing.

Or treating people wearing traditional clothing like exhibitions of a Human Zoo, this includes taking photopraphs without asking or assuming people wear it solely for the purpose of being gawked at. Also touching it, make infantile statements, treating it like a carnival costume... just generally being a ignorant ass.

 

Really, there is a difference!

 

Firstly, I think many Bavarians buy it for the same exact reason. I went to fests with my neighbors and never saw them in their Tracht OTHER than going to a fest (and I lived in Bavaria) Now, I would hardly call it my drinking dress, but when I was going to a fest, where most people would be wearing their dirndl and lederhosen, I was not going to miss the chance to put mine on. I was not, however, going to the market in my Dirndl. Because, that is not what you do. For the record, I think most military stationed in Germany end up with their own Dirndl and Lederhosen. There are many reasons for this, but I am going to guess that most Americans on FJ would do the same if they spent 3+ years stationed in Germany. In fact, I think those who did NOT were generally given the side-eye by the locals for NOT "blending".  Maybe not at Oktoberfest, but going to a local fest, it was pretty much expected of you. 

As for acting like anyone is part of a human zoo or being weird and taking strange photos of you, of course that is weird, but I never saw anyone do anything of that sort. Maybe because when I wore mine, most other people were wearing theirs as well (the exception to that would be going to an "Oktoberfest" on base, where the ones wearing Tracht are primarily those who were stationed in Germany. I certainly don't think of it as a freakin' costume. Still, it is my very favorite dress to wear and I love the chance to wear it.  I absolutely agree with your last paragraph. 

I did like Maher's comment about lazy liberalism and pretending to do good.  I don't have much use for using hyper-sensitivity as a badge of how wonderful you are if you don't actually get off your ass and do anything.

And THIS is exactly it. "Lazy Liberalism" is exactly how I feel about it. Get off your ass and do something about what you take issue with. DO something about it rather than pat yourself on the back and claim to do good. Screaming about things on the internet is not the same as getting out and doing something about it. 

Bitching on the interwebs that someone shouldn't wear turquoise earrings from a random seller on etsy isn't going to do anything. 

[PregnantPornStar]

I wondered when someone on this thread would post an article from FIRE. 

It's like posting an article from the Family Research Council and claiming it's moderate and unbiased.  In my opinion, of course.  FIRE is convinced, and has done some fairly shoddy research to attempt to prove, that conservative speech is being shut down on by evil liberal US academia.

I'm proud to say that of the six institutions of higher learning Mr. P and I have been associated with over the years (as students, faculty, adjunct faculty and administration), 5 have been labeled in the "red" speech code zone by FIRE.  They are all private institutions that get to define behavior on campus.  If you don't like their policies, then you are perfectly free not to study there or teach there.  Do I need to explain that the First Amendment only guarantees against the government interfering with your right to free speech?

The sixth, a state university, is in the "yellow" speech code zone - apparently because it has a Sexual Harassment Policy in the student handbook.  That is naughty of them, says FIRE, because state universities are covered by the 14th Amendment  (extending the 1st Amendment to public education).  Interestingly, FIRE doesn't appear to rate "Christian" Universities, accredited or not.  Probably because their policies against evil liberal talk on campus would put them all squarely in the red zone.

BTW, "academic freedom" is a totally different animal from free speech.

The students at Yale and elsewhere are doing exactly what students are supposed to do and have done for centuries.  They are exercising their voices, debating issues and demonstrating.  They could be calling for disinvestment in fossil fuels, Occupying for the 99%, or striking for better cafeteria food and demanding the termination of the contract of the catering service.  It's a subjective judgment as to whether you think those are worthy causes.  They can ask for what they like but there is no guarantee that their requests will be granted.

However, in the Yale case, the relevant emails (neither of which I thought were totally out of line) also tapped into an existing and real problem about diversity and race on campus.  I might add that Yale's track record is pretty damn bad in that area compared to other universities.   I feel sorry for Dean Holloway, Yale's first black Dean.  Now that is something that Yale should be ashamed of indeed.

@‌Pregnant Pawn Star.  You really need to give a citation for your strange claim that dirndls were originally "slave wear."

First bolded, I agree, you don't have to teach or attend. I myself would NEVER attend Liberty University, as "The Liberty Way" is essentially everything I stand against. Plus, I generally judge anyone's degree from LU.  I knew someone would argue about FIRE (and I believe I previously posted a FIRE link?, I need to look back) Being that they consider themselves bipartisan vs if they are conservative (or if another organization is liberal) doesn't automatically negate what is said. I don't think equating them with FRC is fair. FRC has been listed as a "hate-group" hasn't it? I could be wrong...

https://www.thefire.org/liberty-university-derecognizes-college-democrats/

Regarding the second bolded, of course they can ask. The point is, they are asking that their speech be considered more worthy than Christakis' speech.

Claiming that at Yale is not about an "Intellectual Space" is absurd to me. I know two undergrad students currently at Yale and I am pretty sure they are both there (at least in part) because it is an "intellectual space". 

[Anny Nym]

I see there are some points where we just agree and some points that definitely divide us by you experiencing it as a us-american army wife and me as a native Austrian. And I don´t think it makes much sense for us beating dead horses here .

 

Except for this one where I really have to add something in general:

As for acting like anyone is part of a human zoo or being weird and taking strange photos of you, of course that is weird, but I never saw anyone do anything of that sort.

Well, I did. Some tourists think it is seriously okay to try to take photos without even asking, especially of the children! 

This is never okay! In any country, any culture. Just don´t. Being told off may be the most harmless reaction one gets in return. Don´t be the Ugly Tourist.

 

[PregnantPornStar]

I see there are some points where we just agree and some points that definitely divide us by you experiencing it as a us-american army wife and me as a native Austrian. And I don´t think it makes much sense for us beating dead horses here .

 

Except for this one where I really have to add something in general:

Well, I did. Some tourists think it is seriously okay to try to take photos without even asking, especially of the children! 

This is never okay! In any country, any culture. Just don´t. Being told off may be the most harmless reaction one gets in return. Don´t be the Ugly Tourist.

 

Eeks! I don't know exactly where you live, but I lived in a tiny Bavarian town near a tiny Bavarian city. (All pretty close to Nürnberg) I don't think we had tourists frequenting our area.

I also lived in Wiesbaden for awhile, but other than restaurants, didn't see Tracht very often there. Still, less touristy, so I guess I just never experienced that. I would never even think to take pictures of random children/families under any circumstances. What weirdos and how embarrassing. [emoji33]

[Anny Nym]

I live in the Wachau region in Lower Austria, we are a bit touristy, yes. And my husband´s family, which we frequently visit, lives in Salzburg City. Which is... very touristy .

Mainly on the holidays, when people dress in Tracht for letssay mass, dining out, events, visiting family, etc. - especially in Salzburg City - the problem of  tourists  having no clue how to freakin´ behave always emerges a bit. And some of them really act as level eleventy111!!! insufferable. 

It´s only a percentage of course, but it´s the percentage that sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

 

[PregnantPornStar]

I live in the Wachau region in Lower Austria, we are a bit touristy, yes. And my husband´s family, which we frequently visit, lives in Salzburg City. Which is... very touristy .

Mainly on the holidays, when people dress in Tracht for letssay mass, dining out, events, visiting family, etc. - especially in Salzburg City - the problem of  tourists  having no clue how to freakin´ behave always emerges a bit. And some of them really act as level eleventy111!!! insufferable. 

It´s only a percentage of course, but it´s the percentage that sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

 

That just seems so strange to me (not that I don't believe you!) but I cannot imagine making a scene over other humans. What!!??? So odd.

I guess tourists in Salzburg expect things like The Sound of Music or something? Not that It didn't cross my mind when in Salzburg, but I think my thoughts were due to being a Vermonter and knowing that the Von Trapps settled in Stowe, Vermont, so I have been to the Trapp Family Lodge a few times. It was kind of surreal to think I was visiting their homes in opposite order. Maybe silly.

Still, I cannot wrap my brain around acting like a fools over children I don't know.

I guess I did see Japanese tourists photographing everything multiple times...now that I think about it, but honestly, never Americans. I still find it fascinating that when traveling, the most Americans I ever noticed was in Prague.

This has lead me to reading about Paris Syndrome....so, anyway, that is a new rabbit hole.

[Anny Nym]

That just seems so strange to me (not that I don't believe you!) but I cannot imagine making a scene over other humans. What!!??? So odd.

Still, I cannot wrap my brain around acting like a fools over children I don't know.

...

I guess I did see Japanese tourists photographing everything multiple times...now that I think about it, but honestly, never Americans. I still find it fascinating that when traveling, the most Americans I ever noticed was in Prague.

 

 

There are always people, who have their manners and brains up their asses and think they could act like the metaphorically wild boar abroad. I guess, because they think " Hey, I´ll be on my way home in 5 days and this people don´t know me anyway".  This 10% percent of idiots are general phenomen, I have not only seen some tourists behave badly here, but also met some austrians abroad acting terrible. It´s over-all a character issue, I think.

Speaking about using other people as unwilling photo props, I have my own theory here: I think it´s mainly that kind of people who want #raw #unique #original pictures to post them on social media accounts to get off on how much likes they get for it. Or to brag about what a "semi professional photographer" they are, `cause they don´t buy postcards like the common tourist. You know, undiscovered artists .

Regarding the Trapps, don´t get me started on this - really, I mean it, it´s not a cliffhanger. Or I am afraid all the other FJers will go some serious eye -rolling.

 

 

[PregnantPornStar]

 

 

There are always people, who have their manners and brains up their asses and think they could act like the metaphorically wild boar abroad. I guess, because they think " Hey, I´ll be on my way home in 5 days and this people don´t know me anyway".  This 10% percent of idiots are general phenomen, I have not only seen some tourists behave badly here, but also met some austrians abroad acting terrible. It´s over-all a character issue, I think.

Speaking about using other people as unwilling photo props, I have my own theory here: I think it´s mainly that kind of people who want #raw #unique #original pictures to post them on social media accounts to get off on how much likes they get for it. Or to brag about what a "semi professional photographer" they are, `cause they don´t buy postcards like the common tourist. You know, undiscovered artists .

Regarding the Trapps, don´t get me started on this - really, I mean it, it´s not a cliffhanger. Or I am afraid all the other FJers will go some serious eye -rolling.

 

 

If it makes you feel better, we didn't do anything Trapp family related. I feel like there was a museum or something? Anyway, we only made one trip to Salzburg and it was pouring all weekend, so we ended up spending our weekend in Salzburg in the Natural History museum. [emoji54]

My son loved it and we were all having fun. So, we battled a Stau on the way there and on the way back home.

[FundieFarmer]

Bringing in the tourism aspect is interesting. I live in a tourist capital (what's up, mouse!?) and there's pretty much an "anything goes" mentality down in that part of town. Over the weekend, this discussion made me think a lot about the International Exhibits at Epcot. 

Each of those international exhibits assigns workers based on their nationality (though not exclusively), and requires the wear of traditional dress while at work. So, in the Germany section, dirndls, in Japan, kimonos, etc. Would we call that cultural appropriation? Is it okay because it's done "respectfully"? Who draws the line for respectful? Is it okay if the national German wears a dirndl, but not the whatever-race tourist who picked one up in the souvenir shop? At that rate, is the whole exhibit appropriation on its own? 

I think that some cultures, more than others, are "trendy" to appropriate and it's interesting to discuss where the line between appreciation and disrespectful appropriation is. 

[PregnantPornStar]

Bringing in the tourism aspect is interesting. I live in a tourist capital (what's up, mouse!?) and there's pretty much an "anything goes" mentality down in that part of town. Over the weekend, this discussion made me think a lot about the International Exhibits at Epcot. 

Each of those international exhibits assigns workers based on their nationality (though not exclusively), and requires the wear of traditional dress while at work. So, in the Germany section, dirndls, in Japan, kimonos, etc. Would we call that cultural appropriation? Is it okay because it's done "respectfully"? Who draws the line for respectful? Is it okay if the national German wears a dirndl, but not the whatever-race tourist who picked one up in the souvenir shop? At that rate, is the whole exhibit appropriation on its own? 

I think that some cultures, more than others, are "trendy" to appropriate and it's interesting to discuss where the line between appreciation and disrespectful appropriation is. 

I mean, I think that is the tough thing and I like that you brought up EPCOT. As a kid, I loved that part of Disney more than any other part. I enjoyed getting a little taste of other cultures. If people are learning   about another culture, they are most likely going to gain a better understanding of the world.   Obviously EPCOT is not the real thing, but still fun. 

So, for me, if someone is intentionally being disrespectful and acting like a jackass, that isn't okay. It isn't about appropriation as much as it is about being a shitty person. Is it cultural appropriation to translate literary works? Things can get lost in translation. Why draw the line before literary works? What makes that less important than something else? What if a US publisher is making money selling One Thousand and One Nights? 

[FundieFarmer]

I think it's a really interesting quandary, and with all things, probably just a slippery slope we'll never be able to define. 

I remember when I was in undergrad, a sorority at another college held a Mexican themed party. G-You (my new abbreviation for "general you"!) may remember this as it was all over the news. Their costumes were obviously disrespectful, and inappropriate. As a response, the Greek community locked down, and on a National level, we were told no costumes or culturally-themed parties – at all (except America-themed, because America-themed is always okay in Greek life, lol). Were they dicks? Absolutely. But does banning all themed parties make sense, or is it a stretch? Is it okay to have the themed party if it's respectful, or a holiday? Is it okay to have a Day of the Dead party, or to just dress up? If they had dressed in costumes that weren't intentionally controversial, would dressing up itself still be considered controversial?

Because of that experience in Greek life, I understand the response of administration in warning college kids not to be dickheads. In the case of some of these Halloween costumes, pushing the limits can go too far. If you have gone to great lengths to authenticate your costume and its historical value, I would be inclined to be fine with it so long as you weren't an offensive character in itself. I wouldn't necessarily find that to be cultural appropriation. Say you dressed as an American Indian chief and could explain the details of your costume and were behaving with dignity all night. I find that to be very different than buying a cheapo bag-costume, slapping on some ugg boots, and running around doing a mocking imitation of tribal dances. Unfortunately, it's pretty easy to guess which the college students are more likely to be doing.

That's kind of the difference in Epcot, too. For the most part, you can expect an explanation if you were to ask the history of parts of those exhibits. It's not done in mockery or disrespectfully. That slippery slope, though. 

Sorry for stirring this back up, if anyone had hoped to lay it to rest. I just enjoy this type of conversation. SO MANY QUESTIONS, SO LITTLE TIME!