All Things Babywise / The Ezzo is a Horrible Human Being

[apandaaries]

One issue that Ezzo doesn't consider is food allergies, which can be a major source of pain for infants. All they can do is cry to try to communicate. There's nothing in there about adjusting diets. There's a lot of new research on the connection between moods and gut bacteria, which could impact a baby.

ETA: I meant to add this fascinating link: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/magaz ... -mood.html

[nelliebelle1197]

Maybe I can put it in terms that you can understand-"if you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married. If you don't want to put your baby on a schedule, don't put your baby on a schedule." Clear enough? Nobody's talking about starving infants and not holding them or comforting them when they cry. Do I need to post all the times I fed my kids and their weight at each doctor visit so you can be sure I didn't starve them? Would you also like to know their test scores since certainly I've brain damaged them by letting them cry for a minute?

Why don't you understand that people are telling you that Ezzo starts this garbage with NEWBORNS. You don't remember it correctly or you are purposely being disingenuous. You aren't going to get away with Ezzo praise around here. Ain't happening.

Your NICU comment is off as well, for the modern world at least. I am the mother of a baby born 4 years ago, 26 weeks, 1.8 pounds. We lived in the NICU for 3.5 months. There was a schedule, because there has to be in that environment AND THE BABIES ARE SICK AND POSSIBLY DYING. However, the minute my husband or I walked in the door, she was out of the incubator, in our arms and feeding. When she woke up, she was fed by nurses. Scheduling a hospitalized that sleeps constantly is different than a normal baby,even a grumpy crying one. And the schedules are not rigid, they are a guide for the ever changing rotation of nurse to guarantee the baby is not forgotten and is left unfed because THE BABIES ARE SICK AND POSSIBLY DYING.

[Snarkylark]

Why don't you understand that people are telling you that Ezzo starts this garbage with NEWBORNS. You don't remember it correctly or you are purposely being disingenuous. You aren't going to get away with Ezzo praise around here. Ain't happening.

Your NICU comment is off as well, for the modern world at least. I am the mother of a baby born 4 years ago, 26 weeks, 1.8 pounds. We lived in the NICU for 3.5 months. There was a schedule, because there has to be in that environment AND THE BABIES ARE SICK AND POSSIBLY DYING. However, the minute my husband or I walked in the door, she was out of the incubator, in our arms and feeding. When she woke up, she was fed by nurses. Scheduling a hospitalized that sleeps constantly is different than a normal baby,even a grumpy crying one. And the schedules are not rigid, they are a guide for the ever changing rotation of nurse to guarantee the baby is not forgotten and is left unfed because THE BABIES ARE SICK AND POSSIBLY DYING.

1: not asking anyone to praise Ezzo. I was simply defending some of the methods I used to establish some sort of normalcy with my baby. I don't know anything about him personally and have never met him.

2: yes, the babies were only fed every three hours, never earlier that I witnessed or did myself. Most were feeder/ growers, not dying. Different story.

[lawlifelgbt]

Do you want stupid kids? Because the CIO that goes with a method like this, lowers IQ, as I've said before. The stress actually damages the still-changing infant brain so as to permanently lower intelligence.

[EmmieJ]

I only have one child. At the time I had him, I was 36 and knew I would not have any other children. So my little guy did get rocked to sleep every night for the first six months of his life, and it was a joy to be able to hold his little warm body against my shoulder, feel his breath, and ease him into sleep. I wish I could have somehow bottled those moments and relive them.

At around 6 months, I would lay him in his crib and read him a bedtime story. He didn't understand, but he would fall asleep to the sound of my voice. That did become a bedtime habit for years, but again, it was one that I loved. It was such a peaceful way to end our day together.

At some point in grade school, he would read to himself in bed before falling asleep.

I never made him cry it out and I'm glad I never did. Snarkylark - you can defend Ezzo til the cows come home, but you'll never convince any of us that he has anything of benefit to offer parents. At this point, I think it's just an attention grab and I will no longer provide you with that attention.

[Mama Mia]

** For those who are against scheduling all together, I get it. I think that since attachment parenting/anti-scheduling is such a class marker (i.e. all upper class/respectable women cary their baby in a Moby wrap and feed on demand) and so strongly pushed by the la leche league-trained lactation consultant at the hospital, it can be hard to go against the grain and adopt a schedule. I would urge people to consider two things:

Class marker? Are you sure about that? That hasn't been my experience. I am in my early 50s , the mothers I can speak of range from women my own age, and older, with adult children. Some knowledge of my parents generation -- what I recall seeing growing up or hearing from parents, aunts , grandmas , in- laws. And now mothers of my daughters generation who have children aged 0 to 8 And delivered their children between 17 and 34 . Plus co- workers who range from late 20s to 50s with children's ages all over the map.

There is a huge wide range of education and income levels among these women. Mostly, in my generation , high school education, a few with college. Poor to middle class. Most who reached middle class didn't start out that way. My kids and their generation of friends -- poor to middle class , some college, some not. My co- workers include everything from women with advanced degrees to being yanked out of school at 7 to work in the fields.

I can not think of one mother who didn't feed her newborn on demand. Not one. About 90% breastfed. More or less " exclusively" for the first few months. A sizable minority switched to formula when they went back to work. the majority of working moms did a combination of breast and formula and pumped milk while working.

Most did some form of relaxed attachment parenting, although they wouldn't have called it that. If a baby cries you pick it up. For some babies that means you hold them most of the time. Often in a sling or wrap ( or in my day) , a front pack. You put your baby down to play so you can get some space or do things. They sit in a seat and wartch, or lie on a blanket and play , or in a swing. When they get bored or lonely they cry and you pick them up again. You might carry them around or rock them or sing to them. You feed them if they are rooting around. Repeat. They fall asleep nursing or rocking.

Once they are asleep there is some variation, but MOST did some version of putting the baby down in a bassinet or pack n play or crib. When the baby wakes up in the middle of the night they come into bed with you to nurse and stay there. Some tput them back in their crib. Others skip the crib step in the first place. Even my parents generation was more or less similar to this.

The few that I've talked about who tried CIO started that at 4 to 6 months. Frankly I think because they were so exhausted by trying to get them in their own bed. Because that is far more tiring than just having the baby right there.

Obviously all of this is harder with babies who want to be held all the time. Or with moms who can't sleep and nurse. Or just generally fussy babies. or moms who need more body space. So some moms will let a baby fuss a little longer than others, that's fine. You do what you need to do to get by. But trying to schedule newborns? Or letting a newborn cry for 20 minutes ?? No. Unless you are at the absolute breakdown level -- you don't leave a newborn crying for 20 minutes!

1) most (all?) NICU's will immediately put 4 lb. babies on a rigid (down to the minute) 3-hour feeding schedule. Ask your lactation consultant/well-meaning friend why it will hurt your 8 lb. newborn to be on a 3-hour feeding schedule but not a 4 lb. preemie.

Who in their right mind wants their home to have the atmosphere of a NICU?????. And when my daughters baby was in the NICU they had her go down to try to nurse the baby every 2 hours. Despite them bottle feeding her in the least conducive to breastfeeding way possible.....sorry, unrelated rant about rigid NICU nurses.

2) If you take your baby to bed with you there is a good chance he will never leave. I know so many women who are chronically sleep-deprived because they have their five-year-old and their two-year old still in bed with them. At least one man told my husband, "My wife wants another baby, but the other two kids are in our bed half the night. I'm never going to agree to have another one." Yikes.

Why are they sleep deprived? How is a sleeping child keeping them from sleeping? If they do have toddlers and pre- schoolers coming in to bed and it's a problem there are lots of solutions. 1) if it's the space issue - get a bigger bed. Or put matts down next to your bed. 2) if it's that you don't want them there, yea it can be a itch to transition, sometimes, but generally you can get them to enjoy the idea of a special nightlight or lovey or stickers and within a week or two they stay in their room. No endless crying required. And if they do get upset at least they are at a cognitive level where they understand you really will be there in the morning. And of course, eventually they will sleep on their own. Does anyone bring their mother to college with them? No.

[August]

Feeder/growers eat three hourly because they've been fed that way since they were having carefully measured feeds put down a tube on the day they were born. Again, a sick baby will sleep until they die rather than asking to eat, and bottle feeding is different than feeding from the breast.

Source: a friend of mine is a NICU nurse, and I had a healthy baby in the SCN, and was called to feed at every waking (niwhere near three hourly, more like every hour and a half).

[formergothardite]

Maybe I can put it in terms that you can understand-"if you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married. If you don't want to put your baby on a schedule, don't put your baby on a schedule." Clear enough? Nobody's talking about starving infants and not holding them or comforting them when they cry. Do I need to post all the times I fed my kids and their weight at each doctor visit so you can be sure I didn't starve them? Would you also like to know their test scores since certainly I've brain damaged them by letting them cry for a minute?

Ezzo is and I provided the quotes for you in this thread. It was in the series you used. That you don't remember it isn't our problem. That you continue to not just defend scheduling(which I personally have no problem with) but also Ezzo and Babywise after reading all this about the man is astounding.

When you speak of letting older kids CIO can you be more specific with the age you are actually talking about. I've heard "older kids" in the CIO debate be anywhere from a 3 month old to an elementary age child.

When my daughter was in the NICU they adjusted the feeding times to what the babies needed. I remember overhearing them discuss how some babies needed to be fed more than every three hours. This was in the feeder/grower section.

[WhiteRun]

Babies do sometimes cry for no reason and nothing you can do helps.

Theres an enormous difference between "nothing you can do will help" when your baby cries and "babies crying for no reason" ie. a sick baby will cry and nothing you can do will help, but they won't cry for no reason. Babies don't don't cry just to hear their own voice.

You seem to be approving your own modified version of Ezzos method which is confusing because you both defend some of the teachings and not others.

Newborns aren't capable of thinking coherently (or at all) for the first few months. They don't care if you have a schedule because they're ready to tell you when and what they need. Putting a baby on a schedule seems expectant of the parents to have their child conform to their already established routine which may not necessarily work for the baby. Think of a child who needs to be fed at 4 but whose parents have them on schedule for 6. It's unfair and frankly cruel to expect a baby who has barely any cognitive function to go with mum and dads feeding/sleep schedule. Babies aren't going to think "ah yes, 6pm. Time for a feed", they don't have the luxury of understanding what we do.

[August]

Whiterun, actually my school aged kids suck at recognising that discomfort is hunger. They get grumpy, irritable and high pitched and I sometimes need to push them to eat. I wish I'd gotten to know their ten year old selves before I had to deal with them as newborns. Would have been so much easier, because they're essentially the same people, just a lit more verbal and difficult to carry.

[polecat]

2) If you take your baby to bed with you there is a good chance he will never leave. I know so many women who are chronically sleep-deprived because they have their five-year-old and their two-year old still in bed with them. At least one man told my husband, "My wife wants another baby, but the other two kids are in our bed half the night. I'm never going to agree to have another one." Yikes.

NEVER leave? A good chance he will NEVER leave? As in never ever leave? How many adults are still sleeping in their parents' beds? Heck, how many teens and middle schoolers are still sleeping in their parents' beds? Most kids leave their parents' beds -- of their own accord -- by early childhood. If they don't, parents have lots of ways to get them out. It's silly to say that there's a "good chance" that if your baby sleeps with you, you will be sleeping with your kid (and does that include your kid's spouse as well, once they're adults?) forever.

[nelliebelle1197]

1: not asking anyone to praise Ezzo. I was simply defending some of the methods I used to establish some sort of normalcy with my baby. I don't know anything about him personally and have never met him.

2: yes, the babies were only fed every three hours, never earlier that I witnessed or did myself. Most were feeder/ growers, not dying. Different story.

Are you just being purposely obtuse? You are claiming now to be some sort of degreed medical professional. You know quite well the babies are put on a schedule because it is vital in a NICU environment to have a schedule because nurses are there everyday and there has to be some way to chart feeding and make sure it is consistent. It is not vital in a house with a normal baby.

[Snarkylark]

I only have one child. At the time I had him, I was 36 and knew I would not have any other children. So my little guy did get rocked to sleep every night for the first six months of his life, and it was a joy to be able to hold his little warm body against my shoulder, feel his breath, and ease him into sleep. I wish I could have somehow bottled those moments and relive them.

At around 6 months, I would lay him in his crib and read him a bedtime story. He didn't understand, but he would fall asleep to the sound of my voice. That did become a bedtime habit for years, but again, it was one that I loved. It was such a peaceful way to end our day together.

At some point in grade school, he would read to himself in bed before falling asleep.

I never made him cry it out and I'm glad I never did. Snarkylark - you can defend Ezzo til the cows come home, but you'll never convince any of us that he has anything of benefit to offer parents. At this point, I think it's just an attention grab and I will no longer provide you with that attention.

I don't need anyone's attention. Lol. Where did I say that I never held, rocked, snuggled, read to my babies before bed? That's all part of establishing bedtime cues. Same thing you did with your baby:) I'm not here to defend Ezzo. I've already said that. I don't know him from Adam. What I am here to defend is the way I helped my babies learn excellent sleep habits and it's much like what you did with your baby. I will tell you it's different having one child compared to 4;)

[Snarkylark]

Are you just being purposely obtuse? You are claiming now to be some sort of degreed medical professional. You know quite well the babies are put on a schedule because it is vital in a NICU environment to have a schedule because nurses are there everyday and there has to be some way to chart feeding and make sure it is consistent. It is not vital in a house with a normal baby.

Yes, I am an RN. And you're totally missing the point that the schedule is every 3 hour feeds, similar to what Ezzo recommended for your healthy newborn. not two, not 1, not on demand. If it's ok for preemies and sick babies to eat every three hours it's probably ok for your healthy one. Of course, nurses can monitor weight every day, signs of dehydration and failure to thrive. If your baby is having at least 8 wet or dirty diapers a day he's probably getting enough nutrition.

[polecat]

I will tell you it's different having one child compared to 4;)

I always loved when people would use their parenting status to imply that other people are ignorant/unknowing.

Tell ya what, I had three babies in fewer than three years ... Do the math. Three babies/toddlers under three. And I didn't put them on a schedule, I didn't let them CIO and I didn't try to make anyone else believe that my way was best just because I had more kids and so knew better. I did what was right for me and for them. Feeding on a schedule and CIO was right for you, and that's fine. But just because you had four kids doesn't mean you are now a parenting expert. If that was the case, then Michelle Duggar is the be all-end all of parenting knowledge, and God knows that's not the case.

eta: wording/clarification

[apple1]

Yes, I am an RN. And you're totally missing the point that the schedule is every 3 hour feeds, similar to what Ezzo recommended for your healthy newborn. not two, not 1, not on demand. If it's ok for preemies and sick babies to eat every three hours it's probably ok for your healthy one. Of course, nurses can monitor weight every day, signs of dehydration and failure to thrive. If your baby is having at least 8 wet or dirty diapers a day he's probably getting enough nutrition.

Here's part of the reason NICUs have a "schedule":

Premature and/or sick infants actually have a tendency to sleep too much/too long and they need nourishment to survive and thrive. In the case of these babies, q3hour feeds usually means WAKING THEM UP to feed, at a minimum. It doesn't mean leaving an awake and crying infant crying for an hour before feeding. This has nothing to do with the Ezzos' crap.

[formergothardite]

Snarkylark, you have praised PFP in this thread several times and said that what you learned in that series worked, all while apparently not even remembering what that series actually taught. My worry is that there are going to be tired mothers reading this thread and thinking that Ezzo is a great idea based on what you are saying. While Ezzo apparently didn't damage your child, there are plenty of babies that will be hurt by following his rigid schedule, especially if they happen to buy a copy of PFP, which is way more dangerous than Babywise.

I don't want to give away too much info, but the NICU my daughter was in was a new NICU that didn't run like a typical NICU, at least the other ones in our area. The feeding schedule was adjusted to what they needed and babies were not left to cry. Sometimes a baby would have to be transferred to another hospital for a surgery or something like that and the parents would always come back talking about how horrible it was to be in a NICU with these rigid three hour schedules and babies crying. The NICU my daughter was at was run this way because they found babies just did better when they received an individual schedule that adjusted to their needs instead of all the babies being stuck on the same schedule.

[Snarkylark]

I always loved when people would use their parenting status to imply that other people are ignorant/unknowing.

Tell ya what, I had three babies in fewer than three years ... Do the math. Three babies/toddlers under three. And I didn't put them on a schedule, I didn't let them CIO and I didn't try to make anyone else believe that my way was best just because I had more kids and so knew better. I did what was right for me and for them. Feeding on a schedule and CIO was right for you, and that's fine. But just because you had four kids doesn't mean you are now a parenting expert. If that was the case, then Michelle Duggar is the be all-end all of parenting knowledge, and God knows that's not the case.

eta: wording/clarification

What I meant by that was that it's a lot easier to meet every single need a baby has every single time when you have more than one child who needs you "right now." I never implied that I knew more because I had more children.

[Snarkylark]

Snarkylark, you have praised PFP in this thread several times and said that what you learned in that series worked, all while apparently not even remembering what that series actually taught. My worry is that there are going to be tired mothers reading this thread and thinking that Ezzo is a great idea based on what you are saying. While Ezzo apparently didn't damage your child, there are plenty of babies that will be hurt by following his rigid schedule, especially if they happen to buy a copy of PFP, which is way more dangerous than Babywise.

I don't want to give away too much info, but the NICU my daughter was in was a new NICU that didn't run like a typical NICU, at least the other ones in our area. The feeding schedule was adjusted to what they needed and babies were not left to cry. Sometimes a baby would have to be transferred to another hospital for a surgery or something like that and the parents would always come back talking about how horrible it was to be in a NICU with these rigid three hour schedules and babies crying. The NICU my daughter was at was run this way because they found babies just did better when they received an individual schedule that adjusted to their needs instead of all the babies being stuck on the same schedule.

What I said was what I learned as far as feeding, wake time, sleep time routines was a lifesaver. And so have others on this thread and thousands of Amazon reviewers of the Babywise book. I never said it was the right way, the only way, the best way. It seems as though you can't accept that it may work for some families. I read countless magazines, articles, books on parenting and gleaned advice from many. I've already stated that I responded to my babies' cries, fed them when they were hungry, rocked them. Oxytocin is a powerful thing;) However, my children were great sleepers and could go to sleep anywhere and I credit that to some of the tips I learned. I'm glad your baby was in a great NICU and I assume she's healthy now and I'm truly happy for that. I think all moms want what's best for their babies. We're all after the same thing here. I'm simply suggesting that there is more than one way to accomplish that. I'm not advocating a rigid three hour feeding schedule and then putting baby to sleep and having them cry it out. I truthfully don't remember Ezzo ever saying that was the only way it had to be done. I do remember him saying to be flexible and I was. Again, the major take away I got from PFP was the routine, not a rigid schedule. I believe there's a difference.

[apple1]

What I said was what I learned as far as feeding, wake time, sleep time routines was a lifesaver. And so have others on this thread and thousands of Amazon reviewers of the Babywise book. I never said it was the right way, the only way, the best way. It seems as though you can't accept that it may work for some families... I'm not advocating a rigid three hour feeding schedule and then putting baby to sleep and having them cry it out. I truthfully don't remember Ezzo ever saying that was the only way it had to be done. I do remember him saying to be flexible and I was. Again, the major take away I got from PFP was the routine, not a rigid schedule. I believe there's a difference.

It seems as though you are amazingly invested in convincing readers on a message board that Babywise/Ezzo actually is - if not the only way - the only good way to do it.

I find myself puzzled as to what's in it for you and why you have picked this as a "hill to die on".

[mango_fandango]

I'm starting to think that Babywise/PFP is at least part of the reason that Brandon Shupe- Erika's oldest son- is tiny for his age. For comparison, his three-years-younger sister is his height, as is his four-years-younger brother (just about). Brandon is 12. It's not just that he's short- others have noticed he looks skinny and ill. Maybe Brandon had/has some growth issues that weren't helped by the rigid schedule. (As background, Erika breastfed her eldest, Karen, for six months, then the next child Melanie for five months, then Brandon for only three months. She has had breastfeeding issues, though). The possibility (emphasised because he may not have, he may just be a slow grower) of growth issues, compounded by Erika's strict scheduling and the kids' current boring and repetitive diet (daily green smoothies and salads) probably isn't good news for Brandon. Again, he MAY be a slow grower. I'm not assuming anything. It's just that he is short compared to his younger siblings (who are catching up) and quite skinny.

[TrueRebel1]

Ugh. Ezzo. Babywise.

I remember when my parents went through the Ezzo program at church when I was a child. I remember how overnight their parenting changed. Suddenly there was no grace and no understanding of our kid's real needs and shortcomings. It was all about convenience for them, and the appearance of a well-oiled machine (err...family, that is).

Now that I'm an adult (with kids of my own) I am acquainted with other parents who follow Babywise to one degree or another. Interestingly, it's their children who seem to have more troubles nursing, gaining weight, having out-of-control behavior (as toddlers) over other families I know. The Babywise parents, who have this schedule wherein the baby only nurses at x,y, and z times, and wherein the children nap for x hours daily, look down on me because my life and schedule is not set in stone. I can't have the convenience of having 3 hours of planned free time every single day, because my baby's and kid's needs change and vary. They look at me like some dis-organized pig who doesn't have a handle on parenting. But for me, the proof is in the pudding. My babies are happy. They sleep soundly. They have no troubles breastfeeding. They don't have strange behavioral issues. Maybe a coincidence? I think parenting philosophy has a lot to do with it!

I love the aspect of Montessori schooling that emphasizes observing the child, and learning how to teach them by this observation. I catch myself wanting to call out instructions to my child for my convenience. But I find that if I take a moment to observe them first, it makes a difference in my approach -- and it makes for a more peaceful, secure child. I may notice that they are concentrating on a book, or stacking some blocks, or putting on a shoe...and if I interrupt with a random command, I throw off their concentration and upset their natural flow of order. See, I really believe that kids thrive on order and routine --- but it must be an order that they can comprehend and is natural to them. So, when it's time to clean up their messes, I first try to observe what they are doing. I try to let them finish their current focus, then instruct them for the next thing. This is in contrast to the Ezzo philosophy where parents randomly call our orders, and the child is expected to drop everything and give mom or dad 100% focus. Of course this is difficult for them, so they tend to act out, thus "deserving" spankings or punishment.

I recall clearly that shortly after my parents started implementing Ezzo's techniques that we were at a park. There was some kind of jungle-gym that I was intent on learning how to climb. It was busy, so I had to wait to get a turn. Finally I was in the process of climbing, and my parents called out that it was time to go. I took my time completing the task I set out to do -- climb up and down, rather than dropping on the ground a coming running. This was a big no-no and I got a severe punishment. If my parents had simply observed how interested I was in trying to climb the bars, they could have waited literally 2 minutes, then called me to go. No crossing the boundaries on my part. Sigh....it's just sad when parents put their convenience and pride in perfect little kids ahead of really understanding a child's thought process, pace, and attention-span.

I do believe in routines and structure. This is how babies and children feel secure. But Ezzo's philosophy is not based on routines that reflect the child's needs. It's based on what is convenient for the parent and what re-emphasizes to the child that the parent is in control.

[shatteredreality]

I read baby wise as a very new, very exhausted mother and thought it had some good points. I did put my son on a loose version of the schedule. Mostly what I took from it was to make sure the baby was actually hungry before you feed them. My son had a very strong such reflex that didn't always mean he was hungry. The idea of holding off on popping a boob in his mouth when he cried probably saved my sanity. He adjusted to eating every three hours very easily. If he cried before then I would change his diaper, then try to distract him, then give him a pacifier, if he still cried I fed him, three hours or not. What the schedule did was allow me to leave him at the house with dad while walked across the street for groceries, or did some laundry, or took a fucking nap. I see how it could be dangerous with people who have less common sense, but for me it really helped knowing I didn't have yo be attached to him every second. Flame away.

I'm with you here. We used a modified schedule that fit both mine & my childrens needs. They are 17 & 21 & seem just fine. I never read the book but these are old ideas.

[treemom]

I don't think have a reasonable and flexible schedule is an issue as long as baby's needs are getting met. My nephew was the sort of baby who fell naturally into a schedule. My son would have had to be shoved on one before he sort of naturally developed one around 8 months.

Schedules are fine. Ezzo's advice on how to implement one is not fine. It's dangerous.

[treemom]

I am the parent of a fifteen year old. I actually think parenting philosophies have very little to do with loved, secure, happy, children. I don't think ap makes children and parents so much better or that schedules.

Philosophies are fine. But ezzo preaches a dangerous strategy and his tactics are quite bad.