All Things Babywise / The Ezzo is a Horrible Human Being

[twinmama]

Babies do sometimes cry for no reason and nothing you can do helps. Helping your baby learn to sleep is not just tossing the baby in the crib to cry it out. You watch for sleep cues and put the baby down when drowsy but not yet all the way to sleep. No one's talking about putting your wide awake baby down to CIO for hours.

I have found that hardly anyone means toss the kid in a crib and never go back when they say they're doing CIO. I never did it, but I had very very good sleepers who happily went into their crib from day one awake and went to sleep on their own, no crying. Still go to bed easily at 3.5 years. But TONS of moms on my mothers of multiples group do CIO. Most let them cry for 5 minutes, then sooth, 10 minutes, then sooth, and so on. I hate reading about it because I can't imagine doing it, but they aren't leaving them all night to just scream. And none do it before 6 months and when it's suggested, everyone vetos big time.

Regardless, when my babes were in the NICU for 2 months crying for me, I wasn't always there so I told myself once they were home they would never have their cries for me go unanswered. 3.5 years later, yes, sometimes I am up at 3am with a preschooler who wants a hug, but whatever!

[twinmama]

And I can personally vouch for the NICU bit. I did 80 hours for my clinical transitions course and even the tiniest babies were on a rigid 3 hour feeding schedule. Much more rigid than I was at home with my babies. And when they were done with feeds they were wrapped up and put back into their isolette. They slept until the next feeding.

Yup. My bubs were 2lb each when they were born, lost a tiny bit the first few days so when they started feeds at a few days old they were around 1lb 15oz. They got .5mL of breastmilk every 3 hours. Not a minute before or after, 3 hours. They ate every 3 hours until they came home at 2 months old (or 38 weeks gestation). We kept that schedule since they were used to it. They very rarely woke before 3 hours and grew just fine. And in the NICU babies are weighed every single night and their weight gain and health is followed incredibly closely.

[twinmama]

I never read a parenting book. Or a baby book. The best piece of advice I ever received was to NOT read said books, it appears after reading this thread it was good advice. :shock:

Same. I listened to what our NICU docs told me to do when we got released from the hospital. Then I listened to what the pediatrician said. I balanced that with what I needed to do to keep myself sane (stop pumping!). Happy, healthy kids is all that matters. Schedule or not, breast or bottle. And no one book or philosophy should be so rigidly adhered to because it was not written with your specific child in mind. As babies my twins were very similar and needed similar schedules and feeds. As preschoolers they are so different. I could not raise them both with the same discipline techniques or anything. You have to tailor your parenting to your individual kids, IMO.

[Mama Mia]

I've gotta say I'm very surprised at all the talk of three hours between feedings for newborns. I had alway, always, always heard that newborns tended to need to eat every two hours on average. And that 2 hours , when breastfeeding, meant baby stated nursing on one side at 12, you switched to the other side at 12:15 , baby fell asleep / was full at 12:20 -- and then hungry again at 2 . Just examples of times - because it was never suggested to time it ( unless there were supply / weight gain issues )

That's what I recall reading , hearing from relatives / friends / medical people. So three hours is news.

[apple1]

I'm mostly "over" this thread, but... one more thing:

Premature neonates (similar to the 2 lb. babies mentioned upthread) in a NICU are not surviving on milk - either breast milk or formula - alone. They are also generally receiving IV, and sometimes, hyperalimentation, fluids. FTR.

[twinmama]

I've gotta say I'm very surprised at all the talk of three hours between feedings for newborns. I had alway, always, always heard that newborns tended to need to eat every two hours on average. And that 2 hours , when breastfeeding, meant baby stated nursing on one side at 12, you switched to the other side at 12:15 , baby fell asleep / was full at 12:20 -- and then hungry again at 2 . Just examples of times - because it was never suggested to time it ( unless there were supply / weight gain issues )

That's what I recall reading , hearing from relatives / friends / medical people. So three hours is news.

I pumped for my dudes NICU stay, then switched to formula when they came home (various reasons, made me sad but whatever!), so I have no idea about breastfeeding. But NICU did every 3 hours, and they rarely woke early wanting to eat before 3 was up. Though I did have sleepy preemies so who knows!

I think people get way too worked up about how everyone else raises their kids. I didn't let mine cry it out so +10 on smart kids, but I did formula feed so -10 on smart kids. You can do it all perfect and still get a stupid kid, or a smart one. I feel like all that infancy stuff matters, but not to the degree that a lot of people act like it does!!!

And apple, my babies were on IV until they got to full feeds for their weight. Then IV glucose, lipids, etc was removed and they were on breastmilk or Neosure. This was probably around 2.5 pounds. They had umbilical lines til 7 days, then PICC lines for a day or two before reaching full feeds.

[Snarkylark]

I pumped for my dudes NICU stay, then switched to formula when they came home (various reasons, made me sad but whatever!), so I have no idea about breastfeeding. But NICU did every 3 hours, and they rarely woke early wanting to eat before 3 was up. Though I did have sleepy preemies so who knows!

I think people get way too worked up about how everyone else raises their kids. I didn't let mine cry it out so +10 on smart kids, but I did formula feed so -10 on smart kids. You can do it all perfect and still get a stupid kid, or a smart one. I feel like all that infancy stuff matters, but not to the degree that a lot of people act like it does!!!

And apple, my babies were on IV until they got to full feeds for their weight. Then IV glucose, lipids, etc was removed and they were on breastmilk or Neosure. This was probably around 2.5 pounds. They had umbilical lines til 7 days, then PICC lines for a day or two before reaching full feeds.

Right, IV fluids were only for very sick babies, not feeder/ growers.

[carebaer]

Yup. My bubs were 2lb each when they were born, lost a tiny bit the first few days so when they started feeds at a few days old they were around 1lb 15oz. They got .5mL of breastmilk every 3 hours. Not a minute before or after, 3 hours. They ate every 3 hours until they came home at 2 months old (or 38 weeks gestation). We kept that schedule since they were used to it. They very rarely woke before 3 hours and grew just fine. And in the NICU babies are weighed every single night and their weight gain and health is followed incredibly closely.

Not all NICU babies are kept on a rigid schedule. Since I had one newborn in the NICU and one at home I tried to time my visits to her feeding schedule so I could hold her without waking her up. More than once I arrived to find her schedule had gotten off and she wasn't due for a feeding when I thought. One time it was still 2 hours for her next feeding so I just sat by her bedside. The nurse ended up waking her up an hour early to eat before I left because she wanted me to hold her and I refused to wake her up because I wanted her to rest and grow so she could come home. (After that I learned I needed to check in and not expect the schedule to stay the same.)

[Mama Mia]

I pumped for my dudes NICU stay, then switched to formula when they came home (various reasons, made me sad but whatever!), so I have no idea about breastfeeding. But NICU did every 3 hours, and they rarely woke early wanting to eat before 3 was up. Though I did have sleepy preemies so who knows!

I think people get way too worked up about how everyone else raises their kids. I didn't let mine cry it out so +10 on smart kids, but I did formula feed so -10 on smart kids. You can do it all perfect and still get a stupid kid, or a smart one. I feel like all that infancy stuff matters, but not to the degree that a lot of people act like it does!!!

And apple, my babies were on IV until they got to full feeds for their weight. Then IV glucose, lipids, etc was removed and they were on breastmilk or Neosure. This was probably around 2.5 pounds. They had umbilical lines til 7 days, then PICC lines for a day or two before reaching full feeds.

Oh, I wasn't criticizing. Just surprised. Because I've had a pretty " kid intensive" life ( worked in childcare / family services largish number of children, grandchildren, read about it for fun, etc) -- and had just ALWAYS heard 2 hours was the norm for newborns.

But I think it being based on breastfeeding is very different for the reasons others have mentioned. It takes much longer to eat, and you have no idea of how much they are getting at each feeding.

That's nice you had good, easy sleepers! Mine weren't. But they are all very fast metabolism people in general, even as adults.

[treemom]

I regret cosleeping before we got a side car so sleeping. Amongst a lot of parenting choices I made actually. That is what distance and knowledge provides right.?

[RosyDaisy]

My sister was given Babywise as a gift. I remember her exact words: "Fuck this shit, I'll ask Mama for advice". She also said fuck you to breastfeeding militants (a select few she personally new, not the whole breast is breast community) when she had to put her first baby on a special formula per pediatrician's advice.

[EmmieJ]

Oh, I wasn't criticizing. Just surprised. Because I've had a pretty " kid intensive" life ( worked in childcare / family services largish number of children, grandchildren, read about it for fun, etc) -- and had just ALWAYS heard 2 hours was the norm for newborns.

But I think it being based on breastfeeding is very different for the reasons others have mentioned. It takes much longer to eat, and you have no idea of how much they are getting at each feeding.

That's nice you had good, easy sleepers! Mine weren't. But they are all very fast metabolism people in general, even as adults.

I don't know what the norm is for feeding infants. What I do remember is being told to feed on demand, so that's what I did. And I remember that as soon as my baby seemed to settle into a routine, it would often times change up, but then it turned out, that always preceded a growth spurt. And so true about breast-feeding and not be able to tell how much your baby is consuming.

Another thing I remember about those early days, is how intense breast feeding/feeding was for my baby. When that little guy was hungry - HE WAS HUNGRY! NOW! lol He would get beads of sweat on his upper lip as he nursed. I guess those memories are why I can't fathom ever making my baby wait to eat. His cries did what they were supposed to do - raise my blood pressure and make me respond.

[Petrel]

Just wanted to say- CIO and not responding to a baby when needed demonstrably lower IQ. See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1549 ... t=Abstract

It's easy to find more studies on Google Scholar.

Frankly, when my wife and I have kids, I'm not willing to take the risk of "dumbing down" my kid for life. A baby's brain is "plastic" before age 2-3, so any loss of neurons due to trauma or stress then is permanent. But, maybe fundies don't care. Or, it's a feature, not a bug!

Edit: corrected premature punctuation.

That's not what that study says. It looked at prolonged crying in babies in comparison to colic. Prolonged crying was defined as excessive uncontrolled crying after 3 months (prior to that is called colic). They found cognitive differences and suggest prolonged crying is a marker for cognitive defects. That does not mean that the crying causes the defects, but that it and the cognitive defects are due to some underlying undiagnosed problem.

A possible implication is targeting educational interventions at children who had prolonged crying as infants as the head into pre-school, though that's just my idea.

Parenting techniques, sleep training, etc. were not examined.

Other articles I've read say CIO does not appear to cause any long-term harm.

[refugee]

So we've got 1 person who thinks that common-sense parenting, ie feeding and soothing a hungry or scared baby, is Ezzo's idea, which is insulting to generations of parents who were already doing that. We have at least 1 swearing that Babywise is all about the child's natural schedule instead of the parents setting the schedule, and at least 1 person who doesn't understand why literally every pediatrics board in the world that has spoken on it, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, has warned parents not to do it because of the very elevated chance that a baby will fail to thrive and could die. I'll leave it up to your guess if these are all the same 1 person or not.

Babywise is as dangerous as TTUAC. Just 1 is all about outright neglect if meeting a need isn't convenient for the parents, and the other is about whipping kids if what they're doing isn't convenient for the parents.

Both started within churches, which say a lot, in my opinion.

Amen. Have not read the thread, so obviously I'm at risk of re-iterating what someone else has already said, and better than I can say it.

Ezzo worked very well for one of our dc, who was very self-regulated anyhow (wanted to nurse every 4 hours like clockwork, and nursed for a specific period of time on each breast -- totally the baby's doing, not mine). I congratulated myself on how well I applied the methods, when the next younger sibling came along, and threw the whole thing out the window (wanted to nurse for 45 minutes, every 90 minutes, around the clock).

[thoughtful]

Pretty much except that some people are still saying Ezzo gives good advice(even though they didn't actually follow his advice).

This is what I don't get.

I've read this whole thread, but not the thread from which this is an offshoot, so I may have missed something.

But, when I am not fully informed about something awful, someone shows me how awful it is, and I agree that it is awful, my reaction runs more along the lines of "Wow -- that really stinks -- I had no idea! I'll never recommend that again!"

I love to buy second-hand copies of Ezzo, Dobson, etc., as well as mean-spirited dog training books, and tear them up for the recycling. Very satisfying.

Oh, and on the subject of male authors telling everyone how to be parents, and those who are gullible believing whatever An Expert writes, my old-movie loving self has to add this:

[bBvideo 560,340:3g3f7ga6]

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[OkToBeTakei]

This is what I don't get.

I've read this whole thread, but not the thread from which this is an offshoot, so I may have missed something.

But, when I am not fully informed about something awful, someone shows me how awful it is, and I agree that it is awful, my reaction runs more along the lines of "Wow -- that really stinks -- I had no idea! I'll never recommend that again!"

I love to buy second-hand copies of Ezzo, Dobson, etc., as well as mean-spirited dog training books, and tear them up for the recycling. Very satisfying.

Oh, and on the subject of male authors telling everyone how to be parents, and those who are gullible believing whatever An Expert writes, my old-movie loving self has to add this:

[bBvideo 560,340:d4wbk7d6]

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THOUGHTFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that really you?????????????

:lol:

[thoughtful]

THOUGHTFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that really you?????????????

:lol:

Well, of course it is -- don't you see the old movie clip? :lol:

I've only posted four times since checking FJ for the first time in a loooooong time, yesterday, and I just realized that one was a song parody, one a captioned picture, and one included a movie clip.

Predictable, ain't I? :embarrassed:

I missed you, your chicken, and your sense of humor, OKTBT.

[OkToBeTakei]

Well, of course it is -- don't you see the old movie clip? :lol:

I've only posted four times since checking FJ for the first time in a loooooong time, yesterday, and I just realized that one was a song parody, one a captioned picture, and one included a movie clip.

Predictable, ain't I? :embarrassed:

I missed you, your chicken, and your sense of humor, OKTBT.

OMG I'm not in any way sentimental but I truly missed you, was concerned!

Anyway fuck all has happened recently. Been the most boring couple of months on FJ ever.

:lo:

[treemom]

I missed you thoughtful

[thoughtful]

OMG I'm not in any way sentimental but I truly missed you, was concerned!

Anyway fuck all has happened recently. Been the most boring couple of months on FJ ever.

:lo:

:lol:

Did I mention that I also missed your smart-assery?

I missed you thoughtful

Aww, thanks.

I really didn't mean to stay away so long -- it was just one of those "in a few days . . . " things that kept multiplying.

Of course, at this point, I don't know if I would ever do an "I'll be missing for a while" post, even if was planned. There might be a stigma attached to them now. :shifty-kitty:

[2xx1xy1JD]

My experience with "advice from mom/MIL" was that you get recycled advice from parenting books/peds, from the time that you/your spouse was a baby. So yeah, I ignored pretty much ignored everything my mom and esp. my MIL had to say about infant feeding, since it directly contradicted everything I was being taught. I also remember my mom encouraging me to think about sleep training/CIO, while my dad told stories about me crying and them finally realizing I had climbed out of the crib and was hanging onto the side, and my sister crying and them finally realizing that she had slipped through the crib slats and fallen to the floor. Love my folks and my ILs dearly - but looked elsewhere for very specific advice.

Some books will seem to work well IF you have a child who naturally happens to fit that pattern anyway. Girl1 naturally thrived with an Attachment Parenting approach - but that is basically what I was doing BEFORE I read The Baby Book. The Boy was enormous and spent his time eating, gaining a massive amount of weight, and then sleeping for 2 full naps and a full night, on schedule. If I had read Ezzo, he'd have done the same thing and I would have thought I was getting brilliant advice that made him thrive and sleep well.

That's what makes taking book advice too seriously dangerous. You get fooled by the fact that some of the advice sounds reasonable, and it may work for your child or a friend's child. Then, when parts of it may clearly NOT be working for a child, you might not have confidence in your own instincts or you may have a perception of the situation which is totally off.

Breastfeeding, in particular, is different from bottle feeding. When you nurse directly (not pumping), you don't know how much your child is eating at a time. Breastmilk production also varies tremendous from one woman to another, and it varies at different times depending on breastfeeding frequency and a whole lot of other factors.

Personally, I had no idea how to ignore a baby crying out of hunger or crying at night. Take a new mom, from a background where obsession of making sure that kids eat enough is considered normal, and add in a day job working in child protection where I got daily updates on the starvation death of a baby (see http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/inquest-i ... r-1.254894) So, my version of scheduling was to feed my younger 2 kids BEFORE they got hungry, if I knew I would be doing carpool. I was totally traumatized at the thought of a hungry baby.

The "highchair morals" bit from Ezzo is horrible. Developmental stages are not moral issues. Moral issues are things that will matter for developmentally-typical children when they are adults. Do you know a lot of 20 yr olds who play with their food, mush it in their hair and throw the plate off of the table? Me neither. I do, however, know adults who do not have good relationships with siblings*, who do not treat other people in their homes with respect, who bully others or who do not engage in acts of kindness. Those are things that I consider to be moral issues. [*As much as I value family relationships, though, I do recognize that if someone in your life is simply evil or toxic or determined to take advantage of you, you need to set boundaries and protect yourself.]

[Mama Mia]

Some books will seem to work well IF you have a child who naturally happens to fit that pattern anyway. Girl1 naturally thrived with an Attachment Parenting approach - but that is basically what I was doing BEFORE I read The Baby Book. The Boy was enormous and spent his time eating, gaining a massive amount of weight, and then sleeping for 2 full naps and a full night, on schedule. If I had read Ezzo, he'd have done the same thing and I would have thought I was getting brilliant advice that made him thrive and sleep well.

Moral issues are things that will matter for developmentally-typical children when they are adults. Do you know a lot of 20 yr olds who play with their food, mush it in their hair and throw the plate off of the table? Me neither. I do, however, know adults who do not have good relationships with siblings*, who do not treat other people in their homes with respect, who bully others or who do not engage in acts of kindness. Those are things that I consider to be moral issues.]

The first bit is so, so , so incredibly true. And if you're really, really lucky you'll happen to only have children who match whatever is the current wisdom AND your own particular personality and style. My first couple kids were like that, which made me insufferably smug because obviously I must be a fantastic parent. Until I got to the kid who was a complete opposite . That knocked me down several pegs. :lol:

The second bit I think is probably the most common sense parenting guideline I've ever seen.

[polecat]

This is what I don't get.

I've read this whole thread, but not the thread from which this is an offshoot, so I may have missed something.

But, when I am not fully informed about something awful, someone shows me how awful it is, and I agree that it is awful, my reaction runs more along the lines of "Wow -- that really stinks -- I had no idea! I'll never recommend that again!"

I love to buy second-hand copies of Ezzo, Dobson, etc., as well as mean-spirited dog training books, and tear them up for the recycling. Very satisfying.

Oh, and on the subject of male authors telling everyone how to be parents, and those who are gullible believing whatever An Expert writes, my old-movie loving self has to add this:

[bBvideo 560,340:17afiezw]

[/bBvideo]

I LOVE THAT MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all I have to say.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

The first bit is so, so , so incredibly true. And if you're really, really lucky you'll happen to only have children who match whatever is the current wisdom AND your own particular personality and style. My first couple kids were like that, which made me insufferably smug because obviously I must be a fantastic parent. Until I got to the kid who was a complete opposite . That knocked me down several pegs. :lol:

The second bit I think is probably the most common sense parenting guideline I've ever seen.

ManaMia, I could have written your first paragraph. Man, did number three teach me a thing or two. Agree with you both SO much in this area.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I wanted to share one of my favorite parenting moment stories - my apologies if I've told this one before.

I was at the supermarket with Girl2, who was 2, and The Boy, who was almost 1. We had been at the store for a while, they were sitting in a cart with space for 2 children, and their faces were covered in a combination of cookies, pizza and apple juice. The Boy's diaper was getting full and he was approaching nap time. He started fussing and crying as we were in the check-out line. Yes, I was THAT mother. I noticed Girl2 sticking out her tongue at her brother, and snapped "what are you doing?" at her.

She replied, "Baby Y was crying, so I was trying to make him laugh".

That's when my mood changed and I suddenly saw everything differently. Ultimately, the crying, the messy faces, etc. didn't matter. The important thing was that I had a kid who could recognize that her baby brother was sad, and do something to try to make him happy.

So, that's what my parenting looked like in real life. I didn't have perfect, always clean and smiling robo-children, and I wasn't always perfect myself (see feeding small children pizza, cookies and apple juice). I can tell you, though, that Girl 2 and The Boy are now old enough to feed themselves and clean themselves, so the issues they had in the grocery store that day no longer apply. I can also say that despite occasional squabbles, they are kind to each other and look out for each other, and do the same with other children (including their younger cousins).