SAHD turned SAHW and husband seeking donations for IVF

[nelliebelle1197]

Please, give me one example where there has been a really free market? Like a really free one?

And no, before you come up with this example, the markets in the 19th century weren't free. And yes, the working conditions were bad, but still better than those in the centuries before them.

oh, and I'm not neo-liberal at all. Those are the ones who really like corporatism. I'm libertarian.

Libertarian? So you are still in your early twenties, right? And don't understand how markets really work and the impact of unregulated capitalism, right? The minute someone says they are a libertarian, then you might as well throw logic out the window. Those people are so married to unworkable ideas that they can't see reality. I live in a country where "libertarians" are making great headway in destroying our economic and social order. You have zero idea what reality is, kid.

[August]

August, I am a big fan of your snarky posts, but here the reason why @Sundaymorning is a bit reluctant to answer my questions is a far more simple one as the libertarian "work ethics" :lol:

Hella funny, though, right? And you know reality has a liberal bias, she can't go bringing facts into the argument if she wants to win.

[treehugger]

browncoatslytherin - speaking as a Canadian, you are most welcome here! :-) Also, as a Canadian, I am incredibly thankful for our universal healthcare! It's not a perfect system, but it's pretty damn good. And I am more than willing to pay for it with my taxes (as I am also willing to pay for the fire department, the police force, and road maintenance). Emergency care, family physicians, and maternity care are all covered. Prescription medications, dental care, eye exams, and (except for Quebec) infertility care are not covered. But, there is also insurance coverage available through an employer or individually purchased to cover these costs, and the government will subsidize certain things for families who cannot afford them (wheelchairs, some diabetic supplies, etc). Federal taxes in Canada are tiered so the people who earn more pay more, and this applies across all the provinces. The provincial tax in Alberta though (which is where I live), is an even 10% across the board. And we only pay 5% sales tax. Even still, my husband pays almost 40% of his income in taxes. But, because he is in a higher tax bracket because of his income, we are still able to live very comfortably on the 60% he gets to take home.

Yes, we may have higher taxes, but I am so happy for our health care system - and I am also happy that I live in a country where people who need to go to the hospital can go - whether or not they are homeless or on welfare, or billionaires. I am more than willing to pay taxes to ensure that people won't slip through the cracks and get forgotten and ignored.

[Anny Nym]

Hella funny, though, right? And you know reality has a liberal bias, she can't go bringing facts into the argument if she wants to win.

:lol: Indeed. Also, if I now combine it with

It's the ultimate libertarian nightmare, and it's what we evil Marxists call a "community".

Priceless! :mrgreen:

Normally I´m not that harsh to fellow commenters, but this blatant display of trying to take a whole message board for a fool with pulling the "I am exotic, I am from a small country over the pound." card? And of course the "Let me educate you, murrican sheeplings! While I put on a nice non-threatening tone of course." card... makes my blood boil. I am a politican´s daughter, a AUSTRIAN politican´s daughter! I can spot such people out of a 10 Kilometer distance. From around the corner. Blindfolded! :lol:

No "puppy protection" for tellers of fairy tales like @Sundaymorning! :naughty:

[August]

To be fair to her she has taken on the second most easily refuted philosophy on earth. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, although I am VERY much enjoying your posts.

[Sundaymorning]

Indeed. As a libertarian Sunday only does things for those who can pay her.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I only do things for other people for money. Any other stupid prejudices you want to tell me?

[Sundaymorning]

You should be scared, Sunny, because I want to wind threads of obligation and reliance around you and all the people around you such that whenever you make a decision you don't just think about how it affects you, but also how it affects others. It's the ultimate libertarian nightmare, and it's what we evil Marxists call a "community".

Srsly, though, I think the Australian system is the best I've seen, but it's a bit futile because so far the best "improvement" the government which opresses me has come up with is a system the same as Switzerlands, which as you're already pointed out, sucks.

You want a Marxist community? Go for it! Take some people who want that too, and do it. Just don't force anyone to participate who doesn't want to!

a great quote on that matter: The difference between libertarianism and socialism is that libertarians will tolerate the existence of a socialist community, but socialists can't tolerate a libertarian community. – David D. Boaz

So much for being tolerant and respectful of other peoples views.

[Sundaymorning]

Nein, kannst du nicht - weil du genau weißt, dass das hier so nicht funktioniert mit der öffentlichen Gesundheitsversorgung. Hier gilt eine fixe gesetzliche Bemessungsgrundlage. Aber wenn du jetzt irgendwas postest, dann würden entweder ich oder ein anderer FJite dich auffliegen lassen.

Wolltest "den Amis" ein bisserl einen Schmäh erzählen, weil

"die können es ja eh nicht nachkontrollieren", gell? ;)

Tja, blöd gelaufen...

Ok, as Anny accused me of lying: here it is, the Swiss franchise system. https://www.comparis.ch/krankenkassen/i ... chise.aspx

How does it work? People who have trouble paying their insurance rates will chose the highest possible franchise (currently 2500 CHF which is about 2500 USD). If they have to go to the doctor, insurance will only kick in if the cost is more than 2500 CHF. So every year, they have to go to pay at least 2500 CHF plus the other coasts that aren't covered by insurance themselves. Doesn't sound like a lot, but for someone with financial problems, paying so much money all at once because of illness is a lot.

And yes, I still think that we should spend less on the people who can afford it to pay themselves, but instead lower insurance rates for everyone. So that people can actually afford to pay them and musn't be afraid of potential medical costs.

[Sundaymorning]

Libertarian? So you are still in your early twenties, right? And don't understand how markets really work and the impact of unregulated capitalism, right? The minute someone says they are a libertarian, then you might as well throw logic out the window. Those people are so married to unworkable ideas that they can't see reality. I live in a country where "libertarians" are making great headway in destroying our economic and social order. You have zero idea what reality is, kid.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I actually studied economics. So yes, I know exectly how they work. And the problem in your country aren't Libertarians. But crony capitalists and corporatists. There is a huge difference you know. You should really educate yourself what being Libertarian really means, people in here seem quite confused about that.

[Sundaymorning]

Well, I just googled Switzerland's health care system. It's actually much closer to the current U.S. System than what is typically thought of as universal care. It's " universal" in that everyone is required to purchase insurance. It isn't tied to employment, but otherwise is really similar to the Affordable Care Act in the U.S. , with a few more protections and caps on costs. There is a basic policy everyone is required to have, that can cost up to 8% of their income, but supplemental policies are common ( and where insurance companies make their profit). There are some subsidies and state insurance for some low-income people. There are co-pays, deductibles etc......and I can definitely see where a person would feel priced out of some care, or afraid to call an ambulance. And, like the U.S., it is mostly the lower-middle /average income person who would be caught with financial pressures from it. Actually reading about it, it's kind of EXACTLY the ACA, minus the employer reliance, which is a huge improvement over where the U.S. Was before, generally, but still really, really lacking.

Sunday Morning, I think the problem in this discussion regarding health care is that the system you are saying is fraught with problems isn't really a universal health care system, in the way most people think of it.

I actually happen to agree with your post! And thank you for your kind answer. I like to discuss things with people, but in a respectful manner. It's exactly the lower-middle/average income peope who have the most problems. The question is just, what would a better system be. I consider the system now universal healthcare, as everybody is forced to have the same basic plan, where everything is covered for everybody.

I'm open to ideas. Do you think a system like the UK has would work better? Cause I don't think so. They have truly universal healthcare, and it really works terribly for most people.

[August]

You're Scottish, aren't you, Sunday?

You want a Marxist community? Go for it! Take some people who want that too, and do it. Just don't force anyone to participate who doesn't want to!

a great quote on that matter: The difference between libertarianism and socialism is that libertarians will tolerate the existence of a socialist community, but socialists can't tolerate a libertarian community. – David D. Boaz

So much for being tolerant and respectful of other peoples views.

Sigh. It would have been more interesting if you hadn't taken the bait. Just for future reference, although you classify anyone with a modicum of empathy as a socialist, that's not the case. You are at one far far extreme corner of the spectrum of politics, in a tiny little cluster, and there is more to the rest of the spectrum than you can even imagine at this point in your life and experience. Socialism has a definition, and it's not what you apparently think. And even more importantly, the attitudes and ideas which are shared between socialism and other philosophies are just part of each.

But enough of that. Are you going to tell us now that Nazis are socialists because oftheir name? I love that one. I used to listen to Glenn Beck for fun. Now I have to content myself with Jon Stewart's beautiful libertarian rant when I want some crazy.

[Sundaymorning]

You're Scottish, aren't you, Sunday?

Sigh. It would have been more interesting if you hadn't taken the bait. Just for future reference, although you classify anyone with a modicum of empathy as a socialist, that's not the case. You are at one far far extreme corner of the spectrum of politics, in a tiny little cluster, and there is more to the rest of the spectrum than you can even imagine at this point in your life and experience. Socialism has a definition, and it's not what you apparently think. And even more importantly, the attitudes and ideas which are shared between socialism and other philosophies are just part of each.

But enough of that. Are you going to tell us now that Nazis are socialists because oftheir name? I love that one. I used to listen to Glenn Beck for fun. Now I have to content myself with Jon Stewart's beautiful libertarian rant when I want some crazy.

Ok, so do tell me please: what is Socialism?

And what would you call the Nazis economic system?

[Anny Nym]

Ok, as Anny accused me of lying: here it is, the Swiss franchise system. https://www.comparis.ch/krankenkassen/i ... chise.aspx

How does it work? People who have trouble paying their insurance rates will chose the highest possible franchise (currently 2500 CHF which is about 2500 USD). If they have to go to the doctor, insurance will only kick in if the cost is more than 2500 CHF. So every year, they have to go to pay at least 2500 CHF plus the other coasts that aren't covered by insurance themselves. Doesn't sound like a lot, but for someone with financial problems, paying so much money all at once because of illness is a lot.

And yes, I still think that we should spend less on the people who can afford it to pay themselves, but instead lower insurance rates for everyone. So that people can actually afford to pay them and musn't be afraid of potential medical costs.

Oh, already back at Switzerland? NOW AREN´T WE A LITTLE COUNTRY-HOPPER? ^^ Especially for someone who has so much problems with Immigration laws ...

Don´t try to twist things now by trying to tell us your were talking about Switzerland "all along now".

Das wäre nämlich echt billig... / That would be a rather cheap move...

And please don´t try to pull the "we have different understandings of terms like universal healthcare" Card either. IF you truly have studied (well, I´m not negating that actually. Zoo has studies cultural anthropology once too) economics, you know damn well what the general understanding of Universal Healthcare is!

@August, no @Sundaymorning is austrian. :D

[August]

Anny, I was making a pretty obtuse reference to the no true Scotsman fallacy, sorry.

And now she's sealioning us.

[Anny Nym]

sorry, doublepost

[Anny Nym]

Anny, I was making a pretty obtuse reference to the no true Scotsman fallacy, sorry.

And now she's sealioning us.

Uh, sorry! Didn´t get the whole post on display here first. :embarrassed:

[Anny Nym]

Ok, so do tell me please: what is Socialism?

And what would you call the Nazis economic system?

SEALIONING Oh Yeah!!!

WHIP OUT YOUR GODWIN POINTS, PEOPLE!

[August]

sealioning:

http://wondermark.com/1k62/

I did prompt her to make the national socialist comparison, but falling for it, especially as an Austrian who should have at least learned this stuff in hgh school (Americans don't), is just sad.

The no true scotsman thing wasn't well set up. I need to work on that.

[Sundaymorning]

Oh, already back at Switzerland? NOW AREN´T WE A LITTLE COUNTRY-HOPPER? ^^ Especially for someone who has so much problems with Immigration laws ...

Don´t try to twist things now by trying to tell us your were talking about Switzerland "all along now".

Das wäre nämlich echt billig... / That would be a rather cheap move...

And please don´t try to pull the "we have different understandings of terms like universal healthcare" Card either. IF you truly have studied (well, I´m not negating that actually. Zoo has studies cultural anthropology once too) economics, you know damn well what the general understanding of Universal Healthcare is!

@August, no @Sundaymorning is austrian. :D

Ok, so yes, I'm Austrian, but have studied and I'm currently living again in Switzerland. I grew up in Vorarlberg where my parents are still living, so Switzerland was a quite natural choice to go to university . So yes, that episode in college, where my friend was afraid to go to hospital, happend indeed in Switzerland.

And you know what, I'm done with discussing with you. You aren't interested in an exchange of ideas. You have your mindset, and everyone who don't agree is stupid and should be silenced.

I haven't heard one substential agrument from you besides stupid insults.

[Anny Nym]

sealioning:

http://wondermark.com/1k62/

I did prompt her to make the national socialist comparison, but falling for it, especially as an Austrian who should have at least learned this stuff in hgh school (Americans don't), is just sad.

The no true scotsman thing wasn't well set up. I need to work on that.

Ha, didn´t know about this term. I will have quite a story to tell to Mr. Nym tonight :mrgreen: !

Okay, let´s get serious here for a minute now.

@Sundaymorning

Sealioning or not, Godwin´s Law or not. IF you are even think of trying to go down THAT slippery slope.

Stop. Right now.

From Austrian to Austrian, I don´t need to get any less subtile hopefully....

[Sundaymorning]

sealioning:

http://wondermark.com/1k62/

I did prompt her to make the national socialist comparison, but falling for it, especially as an Austrian who should have at least learned this stuff in hgh school (Americans don't), is just sad.

The no true scotsman thing wasn't well set up. I need to work on that.

So, ok, in this forum, there are only people allowed to participate in discussions who happen to agree with you. Everyone else with a different opinions is just an unwelcomed nuisance who gets insulted and such?

And I happen to know what Socialism is in general, but I was curious on hearing your personal definition, as I have heard many different ones from people who have claimed to be Socialists.

[August]

See? Sealions.

[August]

I can't believe we've gone so long without a word to describe it. An I can't believ it was only coined in September. I feel like it's been with me forever.

[Sundaymorning]

See? Sealions.

Look, I'm done answering to you too. I actually am really interested in other peoples opinions and definitions. But it's clear that you aren't and are just out to insult me. Have fun with your like-minded friends who won't ever disagree with you.

[August]

Simplikation

20 Nov 2014

Why Sealioning Is Bad

Chances are you've seen this comic by David Malki if you frequent Twitter at all these days. It even coined a new verb - "sealioning" - to describe the act of jumping into a discussion with demands for evidence and answers to questions.

But why is it an awful thing to do? Why do people react so negatively to a request for evidence? Surely a reasoned, rational person would acquiesce to such a statement!

Well, no. And here's why.

Sunk Time

The biggest reason why people hate sealioning is because responding to it is a complete waste of time.

It's an insidious trap. Responding to questions asked reasonably is, of course, a natural thing for people to do. I like to do it myself; educating others is generally pretty entertaining, especially if they are receptive to learning. Dismissing those questions can appear condescending or rude, especially if you actually are condescending or rude.

Of course, these questions are not asked because the person genuinely wants to know. If they did, they would do their own digging based on your statements, and only ask for obscure or difficult-to-discover information. This is the "debate principle"; when you go to a debate, you educate yourself on the topics at hand, and only request evidence when a claim is either quite outlandish or unflinchingly obscure.

No, these questions are asked to make you waste your time. It works, too; I've responded to sealions before, answering all their questions and claims for evidence, only to be greeted by even more willful ignorance. It's a way to force you into responding to questions phrased neutrally but asked in bad faith.

Asking in Bad Faith

So what does asking in bad faith mean?

When you ask a question in bad faith, you are essentially looking for a way to demean, degrade, or otherwise destroy your target. A good example of an obviously bad faith question is the perennial favorite "When did you stop beating your wife?" as it instantly casts doubt upon the person asked the question.

However, it's easy to ask a question in bad faith using reasoned, good faith practices. Neutral phrasing does not always guarantee a question is asked in good faith. This is extremely obvious in documented sealioning; the target responds, only for the questioner to immediately grill them for more information, misinterpret the answer, or dismiss it entirely.

The purpose of sealioning never to actually learn or become more informed. The purpose is to interrogate. Much like actual interrogators, sealioners bombard the target with question after question, digging and digging until the target either says something stupid or is so pissed off that they react in the extreme.

Load The Question Cannons

All of this, of course, relies on asking a lot of questions, often with little-to-no downtime between volleys.

When the target is continually asked questions - especially the same question under a different phrasing, which is very common when sealioning - it's rattling. They have to fight the natural instinct to respond in good faith to neutrally-phrased questions, as answering them will only bring more. It's a forced violation of the empathy that a compassionate person feels towards others, as it pushes them into noticing that their questioners are not particularly interested in the questions themselves.

Compound this with being sealioned but multiple people, as is common on Twitter, and you've got a recipe for a very frustrating and fruitless timeline. If you respond, you are bombarded with even more questions by people who aren't asking to actually be convinced. If you do not respond, you are insulted as somebody who doesn't wish to participate in reasoned discourse, despite the clear and simple fact that such a discourse is not reasonable; it merely has the appearance of rationality.

Lose/Lose

Being sealioned is a lose/lose situation, unfortunately. Much like Global Thermonuclear War, the only winning move is not to play. In this case, block or dismiss sealioners and go about your normal business, letting them vent their frustrations out where you can't see them. It's much healthier for your psyche.

It's unfortunate that we must be suspicious of purportedly honest and neutral questions. Asking questions and being open is key to establishing dialogue and understanding one another. When you are the target of a sealion brigade, though, the purpose is to get you to waste your time responding to every little complaint, and falsely-amiable questions are the easiest way to get you to waste it.

So don't. Spend it doing more constructive activities, like making a game, talking to others genuinely interested in dialogue, or any form of self-care. You owe nothing - especially not answers - to a mob whose intent is to harass you.

If you wish to support my writing on games, please consider donating on Patreon.

http://simplikation.com/why-sealioning-is-bad/

Thus, when you ask "what is the definition of socialism? I only ask because I know all these people with different definitions" in response to my assertion that not-libertarian is not a synonym for socialism you're not advancing the debate, you're just fucking with me.