SAHD turned SAHW and husband seeking donations for IVF

[Anny Nym]

So now, since you claim that the free market has been proven to fail, when was there ever a period in history where there was a legitimately free market?

In your head.

Because of course the unregulated economy in the 19th century was a free market. And there are quite a few "failed states" out there, where due to the lack of any working government some kind of free market has established itself. With all ist ugly sides like human trafficking, child slavery and exploitation in use. Even if this regions of the world usually go under the radar, they of course exist. And their free market.

But this is of no use to explain it to you, because you will instantly scream "B-B-but this is not a true genuine[tm][/tm] free market like the theoretical paradise we are talking about on the Internet. Didn´you read my links?! Everything will work out great, because we said so in our blogs and on our websites!"

[Sundaymorning]

In your head.

Because of course the unregulated economy in the 19th century was a free market. And there are quite a few "failed states" out there, where due to the lack of any working government some kind of free market has established itself. With all ist ugly sides like human trafficking, child slavery and exploitation in use. Even if this regions of the world usually go under the radar, they of course exist. And their free market.

But this is of no use to explain it to you, because you will instantly scream "B-B-but this is not a true genuine[tm][/tm] free market like the theoretical paradise we are talking about on the Internet. Didn´you read my links?! Everything will work out great, because we said so in our blogs and on our websites!"

Your false claims won't come true if you try to ridicule me. The 19th century was not a free market. Huge monopolies were created through government franchises, protectionism and such.

So no, no free market I'm afraid.

And sorry, but if you think that human trafficking and child slavery are part of the free market or libertarian ideology, you really need to educate yourself. My links, even if you don't agree with what is being written in those articles, would be a start.

[Anny Nym]

Indeed it would be part. Who would prosecute it?

See, I just don´t see any libertarian spirit in you. You do alot of fuzzing about the ebil gubmint, the ebil taxes, about how people are "not free"... yet you can´t even find a way to move to Sandy Springs on your own?

And -whatasuprise!- ONCE AGAIN it´s someone else´s fault. This time the Immigration laws. Oh for effs sake, you claim to be from Continental Europe, US immigration law should be like ZERO problem for a true libertarian, ready to fully live the free market spirit.

I am not mocking you. I am just underwhelmed by you. :wink-kitty:

[Sundaymorning]

What is libertarian spirit for you anyway? People agreeing to your view points, and anyone who doesn't is stupid?

Who said that I would ever want to move to Sandy Springs? I brought immigration laws up as an example of how government makes it difficult to move for people (and yes, moving to the US is quite difficult for many who want it). And Sandy Springs as an example of how towns could handle things better.

I actually like the place where I live now. And I continue to fight for more liberty in my local area.

Look, I'm quite done arguing with you. You are rude and condescending and don't bring any interesting additional view points on the table, just the same old insults.

And in a free market, everyone is the owner of his own body, hurting people or forcing them to do stuff they don't want to is illegal. And yes, there is a justice system which prosecutes such things which go against the non-aggression principle.

[Anny Nym]

I actually like the place where I live now. And I continue to fight for more liberty in my local area.

Good luck, You´ll need it. ^^

And in a free market, everyone is the owner of his own body, hurting people or forcing them to do stuff they don't want to is illegal. And yes, there is a justice system which prosecutes such things which go against the non-aggression principle.

Who runs this justice system, by whom is it enforced?

[Sundaymorning]

Good luck, You´ll need it. ^^

Who runs this justice system, by whom is it enforced?

Yes, we really need lots of luck fighting for more freedom. Especially as many people still think that it should be governments role to tell people how they should live their lives. I guess, if government bans gay marriage, gay adoption, weed and such, your're probably cool with it, cause you know, government always knows best.

Regarding the justice system, this is actually an interesting question. There are many theories among libertarians on how a fair justice system could be enforced. Some think there shouldn't be any governmental justice system at all. I disagree at this point. I'm a minarchist, so I think there should be a governmental justice system who should protect people from things like aggression, theft, fraud and such. To maintain internal and external security is actually the core task of every government.

[August]

Ooh, a libertarian! You'll enjoy this joke,then!

Ayn Rand, Paul Ryan and Rand Paul walk into a bar. The bartender serves them tainted alcohol because there are no regulations. They all die.

[Sundaymorning]

The only thing funny about this joke is that you think that Paul Ryan and Rand Paul are Libertarians...

Ok, and lets look at this joke. So, you basically imply that without horrendous government regulations and bureaucracy, people would die more often cause bartenders and such would deliberately serve people tainted alcohol. Lets see why this is actually bull***

1. The bartender would be prosecuted because of fraud, breech of contract which led to the deaths of people and such. So no interest for him to serve any tainted aclohol in first place.

2. Tainted alcohol is very often a problem in places where alcohol is forbidden or highly taxed. In places with liberal alcohol laws, the incentives to produce tainted alcohol are much smaller.

3. No overbearing federal regulations don't mean of course that there aren't any safety examinations and seals of quality. This service would just be provided by independent companies, costumer group associations and such. Sure, you could say that those groups could be bought and corrupted. True, but so can government officials. I'd say with many independent groups testing things, we would be safer. It's much harder to buy several independent groups than one government branch. No producer of alcoholic beverages would have any more interest to produce tainted alcohol as they would now.

Fun fact: around here, government tests the quality of restaurants, and very laxly so. And it refuses to give the results out to the costumers (I've tried, believe me). So it happens that people unknowlingly eat at a place where they would never eat would they know the true conditions of the kitchen hygiene and the food safety. So much for being safer when government only is in charge.

[Anny Nym]

Wait a moment... I just clicked on a earlier page instead of the recent one and stumbled upon this quite interesting claim you made here. And I have some questions to you:

Here's how it usually works around here: since, as you said, a lot of things are (at least partly) covered in the insurance (even for the wealthy), insurance rates (even for basic care) are quite high. Up to the point where even middle class families will have trouble to pay for them.

But there is an option: if you agree that you will (additionally to the part that you have to pay for anyway) pay a certain amount of medical costs yourself, you have to pay lower insurance rates per month. Many people who don't have much money take that option and just hope that they will never need to visit a doctor.

To what "option" are you refering to? Link please!

I've had the situation in college where a good friend of mine was seriously ill. Up to the point where we thought that she should go to the hospital (not the doctor, the hospital, she was really sick). She stubbornly refused, even though I begged her to go. Why? Cause she would have had to pay so much of the medical costs herself, that she simply couldn't afford it. I spent a night by her bedside hoping that she would get better and I was really close to calling emergency services myself. I had already texted friends in order to organize that we would all pitch in for her medical costs. Thankfully, she was better the next day. And this is not an unusual situation. Often, people won't go to the doctor cause they fear the costs.

In which country, in which federal state, did this indeed sad story, of your friend being afraid to go to the public Hospital, because of being afraid of the high costs she would have to pay there despite being on universal healthcare, happen...?

[Sundaymorning]

Wait a moment... I just clicked on a earlier page instead of the recent one and stumbled upon this quite interesting claim you made here. And I have some questions to you:

To what "option" are you refering to? Link please!

In which country, in which federal state, did this indeed sad story, of your friend being afraid to go to the public Hospital, because of being afraid of the high costs she would have to pay there despite being on universal healthcare, happen...?

Switzerland. I went to university there for my bachelor (so yes, I can move from country to country if I actually want to, despite what Anny seems to think.)

And yes, those are tragic situations indeed. People often fear calling the ambulance cause they are afraid of the costs. That is what happens if you want to cover everything for everybody instead of making sensible priorities of what to pay for who.

[Anny Nym]

Switzerland. I went to university there for my bachelor (so yes, I can move from country to country if I actually want to, despite what Anny seems to think.)

And yes, those are tragic situations indeed. People often fear calling the ambulance cause they are afraid of the costs. That is what happens if you want to cover everything for everybody instead of making sensible priorities of what to pay for who.

Ah, we are located in Switzerland now...^^ We are talking universal health care or are we rather talking a private health insurance contract for international students?

Still waiting for the

Here's how it usually works around here

link, Sundaymorning.

[Sundaymorning]

Ah, we are located in Switzerland now...^^ We are talking universal health care or are we rather talking a private health insurance contract for international students?

Still waiting for the

link, Sundaymorning.

Look, how about you tone down your condescending tone a bit? I guess you don't seem to take it very well if people don't agree with everything you say?

And we are not talking about me, but about locals. How it exactly works? Well, google is your friend, try it. ;)

[Anny Nym]

Fun fact: around here, government tests the quality of restaurants, and very laxly so. And it refuses to give the results out to the costumers (I've tried, believe me). So it happens that people unknowlingly eat at a place where they would never eat would they know the true conditions of the kitchen hygiene and the food safety. So much for being safer when government only is in charge.

Oh we must live in TOTALLY different countries then, because here Inn and reastaurant owners, along with butchers, meat product sellers and even animal Food Producers constantly complain on the very strict government controls and Auflagen.

And where I live, a Aushang/ a public announcement is indeed made if there is a failed inspection.

But I won´t sugarcoat it: there always some people who complain and write all day long letters about how they are "prosecuted by the gubmint" because the fry cook at the chinese buffet around the corner doesn´t want to hand over his health inspection papers of the last seven years to every passer-by. But that are usually the same people who like to make police reports of their neighbours not recycling yoghurt cups and yoghurt lids in seperate bins.

They also may have the habit of excessively posting at a certain liberal newspaper and linking constantly their twitter accounts.

But I´m certain such people do not exist in your country, no @Sundaymorning? :wink-kitty:

[Anny Nym]

And we are not talking about me, but about locals. How it exactly works? Well, google is your friend, try it. ;)

So you CANNOT provide the link to a option which you claim is standard-use where you live...?

[Sundaymorning]

So you CANNOT provide the link to a option which you claim is standard-use where you live...?

I could.. But. Why should I do work for people who are as friendly to me as you are?

[August]

Oh my goodness! I can't believe I've been so horribly mistaken for so long and was lobbying for such a terrible system as single payer non-profit healthcare. Silly silly me just stopped learning about healthcare systems after I learned about half a dozen in which everything worked beautifully and deciding we should emulate them. I'm so grateful to you, Sunny, for showing me that there are systems in which people experience financial pressure almost as badly as they do in the US. Clearly if the US instituted a system such as they have in Australia or the UK then they would inevitably end up with a Swiss system. I will immediately stop lobbying for change and accept things as they are.

[August]

I could.. But. Why should I do work for people who are as friendly to me as you are?

Indeed. As a libertarian Sunday only does things for those who can pay her.

[Sundaymorning]

Oh my goodness! I can't believe I've been so horribly mistaken for so long and was lobbying for such a terrible system as single payer non-profit healthcare. Silly silly me just stopped learning about healthcare systems after I learned about half a dozen in which everything worked beautifully and deciding we should emulate them. I'm so grateful to you, Sunny, for showing me that there are systems in which people experience financial pressure almost as badly as they do in the US. Clearly if the US instituted a system such as they have in Australia or the UK then they would inevitably end up with a Swiss system. I will immediately stop lobbying for change and accept things as they are.

I'm actually scared to ask for what kind of system you are lobbying fore.

Oh, and do you know what, according to a consumers association review, the biggest fear of people in Switzerland is (and has been for years): health costs... Seems familiar, doesn't it?

[Anny Nym]

I could.. But. Why should I do work for people who are as friendly to me as you are?

Nein, kannst du nicht - weil du genau weißt, dass das hier so nicht funktioniert mit der öffentlichen Gesundheitsversorgung. Hier gilt eine fixe gesetzliche Bemessungsgrundlage. Aber wenn du jetzt irgendwas postest, dann würden entweder ich oder ein anderer FJite dich auffliegen lassen.

Wolltest "den Amis" ein bisserl einen Schmäh erzählen, weil

"die können es ja eh nicht nachkontrollieren", gell? ;)

Tja, blöd gelaufen...

[Anny Nym]

Indeed. As a libertarian Sunday only does things for those who can pay her.

August, I am a big fan of your snarky posts, but here the reason why @Sundaymorning is a bit reluctant to answer my questions is a far more simple one as the libertarian "work ethics" :lol:

[Mama Mia]

I'm not an expert on IVF but know several people who went through it (most were unsuccessful). One friend said that clinics discourage you to go through more than 3 cycles because it messes up their success rates. She and her husband did 4, which resulted in one pregnancy that ended in a miscarriage. Both she and her husband had fertility issues. She didn't have insurance coverage for the treatments and said their marriage almost ended over the stress. Another woman I know went through 6 unsuccessful treatments - not covered by her insurance. I think a lot of people probably given up (either because of finances or the emotional toll) after a few attempts.

And thank all of you for the kind words. :)

I'm also not an expert on IVF, but I don't think that number of allowed attempts is referring to women who conceive and deliver a baby from the attempts. If the IVF is successful, they can do it again. It's only when it's not successful that there are limits placed, because it isn't working.

So a woman having ten babies born, all through IVF, would actually be a big success story for that particular clinic, and the process. If that makes sense.

[Mama Mia]

Well, I just googled Switzerland's health care system. It's actually much closer to the current U.S. System than what is typically thought of as universal care. It's " universal" in that everyone is required to purchase insurance. It isn't tied to employment, but otherwise is really similar to the Affordable Care Act in the U.S. , with a few more protections and caps on costs. There is a basic policy everyone is required to have, that can cost up to 8% of their income, but supplemental policies are common ( and where insurance companies make their profit). There are some subsidies and state insurance for some low-income people. There are co-pays, deductibles etc......and I can definitely see where a person would feel priced out of some care, or afraid to call an ambulance. And, like the U.S., it is mostly the lower-middle /average income person who would be caught with financial pressures from it. Actually reading about it, it's kind of EXACTLY the ACA, minus the employer reliance, which is a huge improvement over where the U.S. Was before, generally, but still really, really lacking.

Sunday Morning, I think the problem in this discussion regarding health care is that the system you are saying is fraught with problems isn't really a universal health care system, in the way most people think of it.

[browncoatslytherin]

Well, I just googled Switzerland's health care system. It's actually much closer to the current U.S. System than what is typically thought of as universal care. It's " universal" in that everyone is required to purchase insurance. It isn't tied to employment, but otherwise is really similar to the Affordable Care Act in the U.S. , with a few more protections and caps on costs. There is a basic policy everyone is required to have, that can cost up to 8% of their income, but supplemental policies are common ( and where insurance companies make their profit). There are some subsidies and state insurance for some low-income people. There are co-pays, deductibles etc......and I can definitely see where a person would feel priced out of some care, or afraid to call an ambulance. And, like the U.S., it is mostly the lower-middle /average income person who would be caught with financial pressures from it. Actually reading about it, it's kind of EXACTLY the ACA, minus the employer reliance, which is a huge improvement over where the U.S. Was before, generally, but still really, really lacking.

Sunday Morning, I think the problem in this discussion regarding health care is that the system you are saying is fraught with problems isn't really a universal health care system, in the way most people think of it.

interesting. defining the terms used in discussions is important, and probably would have cleared up a lot of misunderstanding earlier if, ya know, sunday provided appropriate links to everything. burden of proof and all. ;)

and oh yeah, i'm moving to canada as soon as i'm able. they say "don't like, then leave"? well, i'm working on it. :P it takes time before i'll be accepted into their system, but there are programs in place to help. i have some friends in canada who will be more than able to help me around the whole system.

you know, it sure is nice to say, "well, people should be able to use their money the way they want to" but the thing is, not everyone CAN. i'd like to use my money to get a couple of teeth extracted and get updated contacts or glasses. but, can't do that yet. i have dental and vision (waiting on my cards, since the company changed insurance companies this year) but even so, i still have to shell out money up front. i have to have a physical, i have issues that really need looking into. that's around $30 a visit, who knows how much for tests that will need to be done, and i'll probably have to take time off to go to those visits. and i have a high deductible (because i couldn't afford to pay the premium for a lower one). now, despite all of this, if my income were to be taxed even more, but i knew that my money was going into a system i could actually depend on better than what i have, i'd jump at it. i've been at the other end of the spectrum, living practically homeless, depending on welfare, and let me tell you, the welfare here is horrible as far as coverage goes. just bare minimum. in ohio, they implemented a "family planning" coverage that more people qualified for, but it only covered family planning type of stuff (like obgyn stuff).

also, i know i'll probably start having children before i can move, but i hope i won't have to wait long, because in canada, there is a mandatory maternity leave that companies have to offer parents. here? nada. sure, companies can offer their own leave, but it's pretty much out of the goodness of their hearts. they aren't required to offer any, and not all do. oh, what's that, you have to take time off due to complications or some other shit? well, you better get your fmla stuff in so you'll have a job. complete bullshit.

[Anny Nym]

Another problem with @Sundaymorning is, that Sundaymorning likes to "tweak" and "mix up a bit" his stories about how the universal health care system works where Sundaymorning claims to live recently or even have lived, to refer on a comment on site 6.

Out of puuuuure coincidence and absolutely not because @Sn wants to promote his point of libertarism and just assumes you all are not able to find out how the different healthcare systems work over here and which one is universal and which one is basically private (And so would contradict his point of "everthy works better under a libertarian free market system a´la Sundaymorning").

Noooo, absolutely not! :lol:

In short, @Sundaymorning wanted to tell you all " the story of the wild boar -´cause murricans won´t find out anyway, teehee..."

A little bit like talking with Lady Lydia about the life realities of 19th century women...

[August]

You should be scared, Sunny, because I want to wind threads of obligation and reliance around you and all the people around you such that whenever you make a decision you don't just think about how it affects you, but also how it affects others. It's the ultimate libertarian nightmare, and it's what we evil Marxists call a "community".

Srsly, though, I think the Australian system is the best I've seen, but it's a bit futile because so far the best "improvement" the government which opresses me has come up with is a system the same as Switzerlands, which as you're already pointed out, sucks.