Texas police swarm high school over miscarriage

[Lillybee]

Only in Texas or at least I hope so.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/02/t ... -bathroom/

[jerkit]

This article is extremely poorly written. So a HS girl had a miscarriage? And someone from a “Safe Place/baby drop off†place said she should have carried to term? But it was a miscarriage? I have no idea what’s going on right now.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I think they assumed it was a miscarriage but honestly it sounds like it could have been a live birth with a full term fetus.

[Four is Enough]

I agree. Poorly Written. Do the police not understand the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion? Good Gawd.

[keen23]

Well, the medical term for a miscarriage is sometimes spontaneous abortion, so maybe that's what has Texas so confused??

[Firiel]

I wonder how far along the pregnancy was. I looked at the sites the author used, and the newscasters referred to it as both a fetus and a stillborn. "Stillborn" seems like a term usually only used for pretty advanced pregnancies. They may be wondering if the child was still alive and potentially able to survive when it was first born.

The actual story is still a bit unclear, though, even in the broadcast. I wish they had said how far along the pregnancy was, but maybe that hasn't been officially determined/announced. I feel very bad for the young mother, and I wonder what the impetus behind finding her is. Does Texas have a fetal personhood law? I didn't think so, but I don't follow that stuff closely.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Was there a concern that this was like the "prom mom" case, where a teen gave birth to a live baby and then killed the newborn in the school bathroom? That's the only scenario where this could make sense and be justified.

[Firiel]

Was there a concern that this was like the "prom mom" case, where a teen gave birth to a live baby and then killed the newborn in the school bathroom? That's the only scenario where this could make sense and be justified.

That's what I was wondering too. It makes sense if it was an advanced pregnancy and they were worried about a prom mom thing. But not for a less developed pregnancy. You wouldn't think it would be too hard to determine. I wonder if we'll hear anything more about this case.

[Chicken bones]

The high where it happened is a large school, so it was all over the news here for a few days. I perhaps am being generous, but I'd like to think some of the hoopla was concern for the girl who delivered. However, since they used the term fetus from the start on the news here, i assumed it was not a full term pregnancy....the conservative news here would totally use "baby" rather than fetus if there was any indication that it was a viable pregnancy. anyway, here's the rather and oddly brief article in the (really, only) newspaper: http://educationblog.dallasnews.com/201 ... iage.html/

[Lillybee]

It has been determined that this was a miscarriage and no charges will be filed but that doesn't explain why the police needed a swat team and helicopter and refused to let the parents of the school children know what was happening For all they knew, it could have been another school shooting.

And it doesn't explain that the head of Baby Moses Dalles could say, that the mother could have avoided charges if she carried the baby to term and left it at a firehouse. Does the idiot know that a woman is unable to stop a miscarriage even if she wanted to? I really feel sorry for the poor girl who went through this.

[Iokaste]

Embryo, foetus, baby, it seems people are throwing these terms around randomly. Are there no technical criterias in the US as to when a pregnancy is what?

Here it's embryo up 10 weeks gestation, foetus untill 22 weeks, from there is is a baby and a miscarriage is counted as a stillborn.

[Mama Mia]

Man that was an insanely poorly written article! It sounds like the fetus was an early to mid second trimester miscarriage--- as it was immediately identifiable as a human fetus, but was obviously small enough that they determined pretty quickly that it was a miscarriage not a potential live birth. And generally it is considered a stillbirth after 20 weeks, so likely in the 14-19 week range. Once they determined it was a miscarriage they stopped investigating. So really this thread title is needlessly inflammatory. And there's no reason the janitor who found it in a trash can, or the first police on the scene would of known if it was potentially born alive and killed. They would have waited for a medical person to officially determine gestational age before closing an investigation.

As to why they were swarming the place, probably in full on armor and with a tank--- John Oliver did a great piece on the impact of the militarization of local police forces. Basically it boils down to post 9-11 the federal government granted millions of dollars of this stuff to local cops and they like to use it. Unfortunately it tends to lead to huge over-reactions and escalations, and us against them type attitude the police were displaying to the parents.

Eta: I really hope the girl gets medical help. Having a second trimester miscarriage is more likely to have complications like retained placenta, infection, hemorrhage,etc..

[fun2beme]

Embryo, foetus, baby, it seems people are throwing these terms around randomly. Are there no technical criterias in the US as to when a pregnancy is what?

Here it's embryo up 10 weeks gestation, foetus untill 22 weeks, from there is is a baby and a miscarriage is counted as a stillborn.

I think there are specific terms here in the US based on number of weeks. I'm not sure what they are, but pro-lifers and pro-choicers both use whichever term seems most emotionally convenient to their cause(s).

[BrownieMomma]

Ah yellow journalism lives on!

Wonder how the writer defines "swarmed." If only one cop car showed up, undoubtedly that would be criticized as well.

Frankly, that quote from the Dallas Police Major looks weird. The sentence structure is way off. Either part got cut off or pray was added.

Here's another article on it. Amazing how different the article is

www.news10.net/story/news/nation/2014/0 ... /14920515/

Where's the outrage at the cops that is present in the first story? Funny how that is not even mentioned at all in the second article.

[browncoatslytherin]

after reading the second article, i still don't understand why they're handling it the way they are. the second article states the bathroom is being treated as a crime scene...why? if there was a miscarriage, i don't see how that's a crime, unless there's something they're not telling us. since they keep referring to "fetus", though, with no indication otherwise, it seems to be a run-of-the-mill miscarriage.

[Chowder Head]

The "crime" most likely will be mishandling of human remains if they find the girl. :shifty-kitty: :roll:

[Firiel]

after reading the second article, i still don't understand why they're handling it the way they are. the second article states the bathroom is being treated as a crime scene...why? if there was a miscarriage, i don't see how that's a crime, unless there's something they're not telling us. since they keep referring to "fetus", though, with no indication otherwise, it seems to be a run-of-the-mill miscarriage.

I wonder how long it was a crime scene. There's the possibility that no one was sure right away how far along the fetus was, so the cops set it up like a crime scene until someone could come and examine the remains. That would be understandable-- I mean, it would have been a potential crime scene until a medical examiner came and determined that the fetus had not been viable.

If it was still a crime scene after that was determined, then that's where the problem would be. I feel that all this hooplah and talk of criminal activity and "not pressing charges" in the press is making it that more difficult for the formerly pregnant student to come forward and get the help (medical/counseling) she may need after this ordeal. It would certainly be scarring to have a miscarriage in your high school bathroom, and it's dreadful she had to go it alone and would now be in the spotlight were she to seek out support.

[browncoatslytherin]

I wonder how long it was a crime scene. There's the possibility that no one was sure right away how far along the fetus was, so the cops set it up like a crime scene until someone could come and examine the remains. That would be understandable-- I mean, it would have been a potential crime scene until a medical examiner came and determined that the fetus had not been viable.

If it was still a crime scene after that was determined, then that's where the problem would be. I feel that all this hooplah and talk of criminal activity and "not pressing charges" in the press is making it that more difficult for the formerly pregnant student to come forward and get the help (medical/counseling) she may need after this ordeal. It would certainly be scarring to have a miscarriage in your high school bathroom, and it's dreadful she had to go it alone and would now be in the spotlight were she to seek out support.

i found an article in the middle of the thread that i hadn't seen before, dated after the article i'd read, that stated that the fetus was a result of a miscarriage and "no charges would be filed".

it's just still weird as, because of the use of the word "fetus", it should still be immediately obvious that it was not viable. i understand that procedures have to be followed, but the whole tone of the other articles given seem to suggest that this was all a huge deal and no assurances were given that "this is just procedure, everything's okay". i guess, to sum up, it seems like the police made a bigger deal out of it than what was warranted, and possibly the media, too, depending on what they were being told.

[Firiel]

Yeah, someone definitely blew it out of proportion. I just can't decide if it was the police, the press, or both.

So, out of curiosity, I looked up the difference between fetus and baby. It appears that scientifically (according to Wikipedia, mind you), the only difference is inside or outside the womb. It's a fetus as long as it has not been born. I guess it has nothing to do with viability. The habit of calling a miscarried baby a fetus even after birth is, I'm guessing, based on not knowing what else to call it. People seem to infer "fairly full-term" from stillborn. And "baby" also implies a late-term loss.

[browncoatslytherin]

Yeah, someone definitely blew it out of proportion. I just can't decide if it was the police, the press, or both.

So, out of curiosity, I looked up the difference between fetus and baby. It appears that scientifically (according to Wikipedia, mind you), the only difference is inside or outside the womb. It's a fetus as long as it has not been born. I guess it has nothing to do with viability. The habit of calling a miscarried baby a fetus even after birth is, I'm guessing, based on not knowing what else to call it. People seem to infer "fairly full-term" from stillborn. And "baby" also implies a late-term loss.

now, somebody could be misusing the term in the articles, but in the medical field, "fetus" in this context implies non-viable. fetus is used to refer to a baby up to when it is born, but typically when a miscarriage happens, it's still referred to as a fetus and not as a baby.

[Firiel]

now, somebody could be misusing the term in the articles, but in the medical field, "fetus" in this context implies non-viable. fetus is used to refer to a baby up to when it is born, but typically when a miscarriage happens, it's still referred to as a fetus and not as a baby.

Okay, that makes sense. I got this from Wikipedia: A fetus /ˈfiËtÉ™s/, also spelled foetus (or archaically faetus), is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth.

So yeah, it does make sense that they would still call it a fetus after "birth" if it was not viable. Do they still call it a fetus if it was able to be born alive but never had any chance of surviving? I ask because a family friend gave birth VERY prematurely 20-odd years ago, and the baby was alive and trying to breathe but there was no chance of it surviving, so they couldn't do anything. Perhaps medical care has improved to the point that any baby born alive still has the possibility (however slight) of surviving? Do you know at what point in fetal development that the term changes from fetus to stillborn? Like, babies have survived at 22 weeks, but it's not likely. If a 22 week fetus/baby is born dead, is it a fetus or a stillborn? Sorry for all the questions. I get weirdly interested in random shit, and it turns out that fetal terminology is drawing me in.

I doubt the cops could tell if the fetus was viable or not just by looking at it, so it makes sense that the article would call it a fetus since the article was likely written after medical professionals had examined the body and determined the progress of the pregnancy.

[browncoatslytherin]

Okay, that makes sense. I got this from Wikipedia: A fetus /ˈfiËtÉ™s/, also spelled foetus (or archaically faetus), is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth.

So yeah, it does make sense that they would still call it a fetus after "birth" if it was not viable. Do they still call it a fetus if it was able to be born alive but never had any chance of surviving? I ask because a family friend gave birth VERY prematurely 20-odd years ago, and the baby was alive and trying to breathe but there was no chance of it surviving, so they couldn't do anything. Perhaps medical care has improved to the point that any baby born alive still has the possibility (however slight) of surviving? Do you know at what point in fetal development that the term changes from fetus to stillborn? Like, babies have survived at 22 weeks, but it's not likely. If a 22 week fetus/baby is born dead, is it a fetus or a stillborn? Sorry for all the questions. I get weirdly interested in random shit, and it turns out that fetal terminology is drawing me in.

I doubt the cops could tell if the fetus was viable or not just by looking at it, so it makes sense that the article would call it a fetus since the article was likely written after medical professionals had examined the body and determined the progress of the pregnancy.

barring any genetic issues, viability goes by age of the fetus or baby. the threshold of viability is usually around 24 or 25 weeks, as most babies born at that age can usually survive, with medical intervention. before that point, it's a real crapshoot, as miracles can happen but they don't tend to.

so, a miscarried fetus should be a fairly obvious difference, even to someone untrained, due to size and formation. the only thing that would be questionable is if the fetus was close to the age of viability, which it doesn't look like that was disclosed. if it was close, one would think that they wouldn't use the term "fetus" initially, and would only backtrack using that term, but common sense is unfortunately not very common and lordy knows how people like to be illogical about their terminology use.

[Firiel]

barring any genetic issues, viability goes by age of the fetus or baby. the threshold of viability is usually around 24 or 25 weeks, as most babies born at that age can usually survive, with medical intervention. before that point, it's a real crapshoot, as miracles can happen but they don't tend to.

so, a miscarried fetus should be a fairly obvious difference, even to someone untrained, due to size and formation. the only thing that would be questionable is if the fetus was close to the age of viability, which it doesn't look like that was disclosed. if it was close, one would think that they wouldn't use the term "fetus" initially, and would only backtrack using that term, but common sense is unfortunately not very common and lordy knows how people like to be illogical about their terminology use.

So would a pre-viable fetus that was born alive but had little/no chance of surviving still be called a fetus after it died?

My guess is that the fetus was close to the age of viability which is why the it was treated like a crime scene at first. I'd guess the articles were written after the state of the fetus had been determined. Actually, the article was updated after it was published-- so maybe that was the update. It would sure add context to the weird comment from the Baby Moses guy if they thought it was a baby and then realized it was a fetus post-publication. It reads as a very strange article right now, talking about fetuses being abandoned and such. If they thought it was viable and realized it wasn't, they may have just changed the language without changing the context surrounding the language, resulting in the strange verbiage.

[Mama Mia]

barring any genetic issues, viability goes by age of the fetus or baby. the threshold of viability is usually around 24 or 25 weeks, as most babies born at that age can usually survive, with medical intervention. before that point, it's a real crapshoot, as miracles can happen but they don't tend to.

so, a miscarried fetus should be a fairly obvious difference, even to someone untrained, due to size and formation. the only thing that would be questionable is if the fetus was close to the age of viability, which it doesn't look like that was disclosed. if it was close, one would think that they wouldn't use the term "fetus" initially, and would only backtrack using that term, but common sense is unfortunately not very common and lordy knows how people like to be illogical about their terminology use.

I Think you're looking at it from the view of someone with some knowledge/training and or experience with gestational ages and their appearance. So you might find a fetus in a trash can and immediately know it was not viable. Even most women who have been pregnant and seen ultrasounds and week-by- week pregnancy guides with photos, might find it and think - no way would this have been viable at birth - maybe. But you have to account for 1) it's someone finding an obviously human fetus in a trash can -- that's going to be pretty shocking and freak people out and 2) The initial discovery, and the first cops called, may have no clue if a fetus is 16- 22 weeks or if it's more and potentially viable- or even have any idea what the potential age of viability is ---and no reason they should. It's not like they suddenly go from being an un recognizable blob to looking like a full-term newborn in a day-- there a lot of in-between there.

[browncoatslytherin]

So would a pre-viable fetus that was born alive but had little/no chance of surviving still be called a fetus after it died?

My guess is that the fetus was close to the age of viability which is why the it was treated like a crime scene at first. I'd guess the articles were written after the state of the fetus had been determined. Actually, the article was updated after it was published-- so maybe that was the update. It would sure add context to the weird comment from the Baby Moses guy if they thought it was a baby and then realized it was a fetus post-publication. It reads as a very strange article right now, talking about fetuses being abandoned and such. If they thought it was viable and realized it wasn't, they may have just changed the language without changing the context surrounding the language, resulting in the strange verbiage.

that could definitely explain some things. usually when news outlets update stories, they note what was updated. of course, again, that's something that makes sense.

and yes, certainly if it was close to the age of viability, it could be difficult for an untrained person to determine that. which was my point of i wasn't sure why they were referring to it as a fetus right off the bat if they weren't sure if said fetus was viable vs non-viable. but firiel's postulating that they updated and edited the article without notating the change makes sense in that regard, although it still creates confusion for anyone reading the article after the edit. again, common sense isn't common.

*edit* because i forgot to answer a question - if a fetus is born alive but is non-viable, after death it's commonly referred to as a non-viable newborn or non-viable baby, since they were born alive but because of circumstances (age or a genetic condition) they deteriated and died.