Helping vs Raising Siblings

[roddma]

All Duggar humpers say it's wonderful the Duggar daughters help and they should help since they are part of the family. To top it off, they say the older daughters want to do it and it creates sibling bonds. These young women do more than help. It has already been mentioned elsewhere on the forum Jordyn and Josie sleep with Jana and one other older daughter. That isn't just helping. If they are part of the family, what about sons and husbands?

 

I have read comments on other forums on this same subject. Most of them aren't' even Fundie and put way too much on their older kids. It makes me wonder where the fathers are. Then younger kids can do some things for themselves as they get older. Changing an occasional diaper isn't the same as being constant caretaker. I could see if it became necessary like for sick parents etc, but not full time. I guess some of them do enjoy it , but many more likely don't. The parents are the ones who had the kids. I'm not against helping, but in this case, the rigid gender roles can make slaves out of females in Patriarchy.

[pineapple450]

Why is it that the older boys don't have any buddies, but the girls have like 3-4? Wouldn't it be kind of awkward/difficult for the girls (say age 14-ish, they all definitely had buddies at that point) to be helping to dress the boys (say around 5/6-ish?) with their boy/girl modesty extremes? I mean I know they're siblings but still- I remember J'Chelle talking about how they're all careful to be modest around each other, like locking the door when they use the bathroom so there aren't any accidental walk-ins). It makes much more sense to have the older boys in charge of the little boys and older girls in charge of the little girls. I mean the Bates boys have buddies, why are the Duggar boys allowed to spend basically all their time out of the house, not contributing to the family?

[roddma]

I didn't know the Bates boys had buddies. I still doubt if Gil or Lawson do any of the cooking unless it's grilling or diaper changing. I am certain if asked Gil would more likely to change diapers than Jim boob who handed Josie to her sister mom. On the Bate house remake episode, clearly the Bates women were doing the cooking. It does seem the Duggar boys have little responsibility inside the house. Anyway if you need to pair off your kids you have too many.

[RosyDaisy]

I cannot see Gil Bates changing a diaper. He would pull a JB, and somehow find a sister mom to do it.

[alba]

I always thought the buddy system was a sensible idea taken to extremes. We used to use it at camp when we were swimming (though with same-age friends, not older/younger siblings). If you have more small children than you have hands, I think it does make sense to pair up when you leave the house. It even makes sense to have default pairings so there's no fighting when you're getting ready to go out. However, it's no longer sensible when you start making your preteen/teen daughters responsible for several younger siblings, nor when you extend it to them helping with the bulk of daily tasks.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think an acceptable amount of helping with siblings would be:

Occasionally babysitting while the parents are having a romantic night out, once they are proven to be responsible enough to cope with so many kids.

Watching younger siblings if both parents are busy-like asking the 10 year old to keep an eye on the toddlers because mom has gone to the shop to buy groceries and dad needs to go upstairs and break up a fight between two other kids, or going to make their 5 year old sister a drink because dad is at work and mom is breastfeeding the newborn.

Holding a younger sibling's hand while they are out, when there is more children than parents have hands.

For a child as young as Jana was when she first got a buddy, looking after a sibling should be things like handing a parent a diaper, being supervised holding the baby, helping their parents with feeding, changing and bathing because they are interested in their new sibling and want to help (not an obligation).

Occaisionally changing a diaper, if they want to.

Doing a few chores-not doing the bulk of it, but a little kid should be able to make their bed, , clean their room, put their toys away and do a few simple chores a week. A teenager should be able to keep their room clean, bed made, clean up any mess they make, be able to cook and use the washing machine (but not expected to cook every meal), and have a few chores, but not have to spend the majority of their time running the house. Kids should be kids and have the majority of their time free for play.

An older sibling could help a younger sibling with their homework, but should never have to take over all of the homeschooling, as that is a parent's job.

I think a child should never have changed more diapers than most adults by the time they are 12 (think that statistic was given for one of the Jslaves in an early episode), never have to get up in the night to feed a baby sibling, never have to regularly share a bed with a much younger sibling, never have to spend more than an hour a day doing chores, never have to collectively do more chores than their parents (what do Michelle and Jimbob do? It seems their kids have everything covered!), never have to spend more time caring for a child than their parents do, never have so much do to that the majority of their time is spend caring for children and doing chores.

[silverspoons]

I think there has to be a happy medium between slavery and chores. Most parents agree kids should help out with chores or have a way for kids to become self sufficient.

The leghumpers that think the Duggars are perfect and helping is normal really believe everything they see on tv and don't know the real story.

My MIL had over 20 kids. She loved kids and never asked her kids to help. She was an exhausted women who changed every diaper, cooked every meal, did all the laundry. She wouldn't let her kids help. Although she was a good women, my husband said he remembers a few times she snapped under the stress. One time he asked where his baseball uniform was. She had 2 sick kids and hadn't done that load of laundry. She threw the laundry around crying. My husband offer to help but she said no, kids need to study and be kids. If she had given each kid a small chore or had older kids do their own laundry or make their own beds, her life would have been easier. I think the Duggars are the opposite extreme of too much responbility and do to the fact they homeschool, there is no break from family life. So where is a good middle?

My big pet peeve is the Duggar do not teach personal responsibility. They are not teaching those boys to be self sufficient or even the girls good personal skills for being in a smaller household. If they used the buddy system for an older kid to mentor a kid for a short time on specific tasks, like teaching a 5 year old a morning routine that would be fine. Normally most parents teach a 5 year old some sort of skills or rountine to get ready for school. I remember getting ready for kindergarten , my clothes were laid out the night before, I could dress myself, brush my teeth and hair and came down for breakfast. Then as kids get older the Duggars really should be teaching them to do their own laundry, fix their own snacks or lunch. I can see a buffet style or sit down dinner but Michelle should be able to get ready a simple breakfast and most of the kids should be able to make their own sandwich for lunch.

I don't think the Duggars will change. Not even a death of a spouse, nothing will get Michelle back to being a mom or a future son to be a husband that cooks and changes diapers. As much as I disagree with a lot of the LDS church, my husband and several brothers went on missions and my husband's mission taught him to cook, clean, do his laundry, and budget money. His brothers that did not go on missions still look for women like their mom to take care of them, and is hasn't turned out well.

[socalrules]

There is nothing wrong with helping out. I think the problem starts when it becomes a child's job to do practically everything a parent should be doing. All the time. Further, I have a problem with the fact that it has always seemed that the only thing some like the Duggar girls do is take care of their siblings and the household. Prior to Jill starting the whole midwife thing, we never heard anything about what the girls did for themselves. There is no going out with friends, going to the mall or doing anything that does not involve taking care of their family. A lot of kids help their parents with their siblings when needed. The difference is that these kids also go to school, play sports, join clubs or otherwise have their own life outside of raising their siblings.

[roddma]

In QUiverfull/Patriarchy, the purpose of the 'buddy system' is to train the females in childcare. But what about the younger kids? Jordyn, Jennifer,and Josie have no where near the responsibility of the older ones unless there is a bunch of grandkids from the older ones.But then they will likely have their own sister moms.

[VixenToast]

Here's to hoping Anna doesn't use her daughters as M'slaves.

[Mama Mia]

In QUiverfull/Patriarchy, the purpose of the 'buddy system' is to train the females in childcare. But what about the younger kids? Jordyn, Jennifer,and Josie have no where near the responsibility of the older ones unless there is a bunch of grandkids from the older ones.But then they will likely have their own sister moms.

I would assume the younger girls will get plenty of childcare training with Jill, Jessa, etc.. Children. Even if they start having babies right away they still need to wait for the oldest to be at least school age before they can actually dress, feed, change and care for littler ones. A super responsible 4 or 5 year old can dress themselves, use the bathroom on their own, kinda brush their own hair and keep a baby from sticking stuff in their mouths, and get a snack for themselves and others, but hopefully, even the most neglectful fundie parent isn't having a pre-schooler using the stove to make a meal, or giving the 2 year old a bath. So Johannah, especially, will probably be called upon to help out sometimes, and within the next few years the younger ones too. Also, even when the oldest kid is seven or eight, the younger kids closest in age probably won't listen to them,IME you need a bit of a gap between siblings to have any kind of authority.

The kids personalities also make a gigantic difference too in how ready they are to care for themselves or siblings. We had a blended family, with oldest girls in both sets, followed by a bunch of younger siblings. One of the oldest girls was just a naturally caretaker, responsible type and very much liked helping out ( although I certainly didn't have her be a sister mom, and paid her for any babysitting that lasted longer than a trip to the store). The other one absolutely hated it and had a very, very hard time, partly, I think, because she was expected to watch them all the time.

[Full enough quiver]

We have a blended family. Hubby and I, my daughter, his daughter, and my nephews that we are legal guardians to. Kids are girl, 16, girl, 13, boy, 11, boy, 9. We have always delegated chores. When we first got married, I worked part time, and homeschooled the girls, 10 and 7 at the time. The girls and I worked together at cooking and cleaning, with no set chores.

When the boys moved in, things got a lot harder. We went from two perfectly behaved angels, to 2 angels and two very hurt little boys with learning and behavioral issues. It was very important to me that the girls not see their workload increase too much. I didn't want them to resent the boys. That year, older girl started public high school, and was assigned 2 small jobs in the morning before school, and began doing her own laundry. I quit my job to focus on integrating our new children.

Younger girl and boys each have 1 small job in the morning, and one in the afternoon when school is done for the day. We also have bigger jobs that can be done for pay, such as laundry, floor scrubbing, etc. Younger girl is very smart and enjoys school. She will often finish her work, and then help one of the boys with theirs. She isn't in charge of homeschooling, but is a tremendous help.

The girls are wonderful helpers, and have each gravitated toward a boy in a kind of "buddy" system. Outgoing older boy worships older girl, so she helps him a lot. Younger boy and younger girl are quieter and naturally gravitate toward one another, and she often reads to him, or helps him with his math.

Nobody has to do anything, beyond their regular assigned jobs. The girls choose to go above and beyond, and they are having a wonderful influence on the boys. They are amazing role models. Hubby and I are amazingly blessed with these girls.

The differences between our "buddies" and Duggar buddies are

1. Our children have friends besides each other. 2. Beyond their regular chores, additional help is voluntary. 3. Chores are distributed based on age and ability, not gender. The girls are older, so they are more responsible, but we try to be fair. 4. Our children are free to express their opinions on who does what, and chose their assigned tasks.

[artdecades]

When the little kids run to their sister moms instead of their parents for support and guidance (ie scared jennifer crying for jill instead of mom or dad), that is when you know the line has been crossed.

I think the reason so many people are ok with the Duggar system is because they whitewash it on the show. They make it seem like Michelle is a parent who cooks and cleans and raises the kids (Jim Bob less so).

[SoybeanQueen]

My kids each have a zone they're supposed to be in charge of for a week. Then they rotate to a different zone the next week. If it's their week to be in charge of the kitchen clean up, they do more work than the person who is in charge of picking up the living room, but since it rotates (among all of them, not just girl kids), no one has to do the harder stuff all of the time. I think it helps teach them to pick up a little at a time and watch to make sure a much larger mess doesn't pile up. That's an essential life skill, IMO.

They also need to pick up the floor of their room daily.

I do the majority of cooking, unless one of them volunteers. I take care of the toddler most of the time. I homeschool the boys. If they need a parent for something, they come to me or my husband. So, I definitely think it's possible to have the kids share in the household work without making them into parent surrogates!

[Sundaymorning]

There is a huge difference between giving your children some manageable chores, and exploiting them as free surrogate mothers and housemaids the way the Duggars do. The Duggars make the girls do the work they should be doing themselves.

Household chores for children are important. They should be assigned by age and maybe preference. However, forcing young teenagers to take over the responsibility and workload of an adult is simply child abuse.

Helping with younger siblings, well, I think it's ok to have older siblings occasionally help out a bit. But they should never have to parent their siblings, and they should be free to persue their own interests and meet their own friends without having a younger sibling tagging along all the time. Child raising is the job of the parents, who decided to have them in first place, not the responsibility of the siblings.

Also, children and teenagers already have a very important job that should keep them busy: learning and educating themselves.

The Duggar girls had and have so many chores and distractions that I don't believe for a second that they had enough time and energy to truly concentrate on their studies.

[Jessica]

They explain what buddies do in 14 Children & Pregnant again. They help get them up and ready for the day (dressed, teeth brushed, hair groomed), help them get their own breakfast, help with homeschool lessons, and something like "And they're there to pick you up when you fall!" So what does that leave for Michelle to do? Then it cuts to a shot of Michelle and the narrator says she's an expert at delegating. Gee, I never would've guessed! Other than conceiving, birthing, and breastfeeding, she has nothing to do with her kids!

[Full enough quiver]

The occasional "hey, can you go see what your brother wants, I'm fixing dinner", or "please help you little brother find his shoes" is totally fine. That sort of thing happens, especially in a big family. Older siblings should help younger siblings. It teaches responsibility and empathy. Younger siblings should look up to older siblings.

Helping with housework is fine too. Everyone in the house needs to contribute. When it takes over a child's whole life, to the detriment of education, friendships, and personal growth and development then it is a problem.

[ljohnson2006]

The Lost Girls go to their sister-mom rather than their own mom. That shows that they're closer with their sisters than their own mother. That's sad, and should be a serious wake up call for J'Chelle. Sadly, I don't think she'll ever take over parenting her own children. She and Boob decided to have 19 kids, the older girls did not.

[Feberin]

I think the line is crossed when the sibling is doing the majority of the caretaking. I don't have an issue with older siblings helping out. Even if say an older sibling had to watch younger siblings for an hour or so after school or help change a few diapers. But when every single day the older buddy is responsible for helping get their younger buddy dressed, fed and educated that's crossing the line. I think in one episode Jill mentions that she changed Joy's diapers. Jill is seven years older then Joy. I also doubt that it was a few diapers that Jill was changing at seven years old.

This quote talks about Michelle starting the buddy system.

We came up with the idea years ago when we had a number of little ones, I don’t exactly remember what age the oldest one was -- maybe eight years old. We were trying to gather up all the shoes as we were walking out the door, getting them on the little feet and tying them, and buckling up all the car seats. And we realized it works much better if we’re trying to hurry to have one of the older ones help the little guys buckle their seatbelts.

Here are some quotes from a CMOMB's annual chats with Michelle. They're quite old so keep that in mind but it gives you a hint at how young the buddies were starting to care for children.

Joshua, our 16 yo son, his buddy was Joseph... But now Joseph no longer needs a buddy Jana, my oldest daughter (14) has two buddies...she begged for the second buddy 4 yo Jason and then the new baby, Jackson awww Jill, my 13 yo daughter, has two buddies...Joy-Anna (almost 7) and James (3). Joy thinks that James is her buddy and Jill is just her assistant to help with James!:) And then Jessa, 12, has two buddies (Jeremiah, one of the twins, who's five and Justin, the one and a half year old). And of course Jeremiah thinks Jessa is just his assistant to help him take care of Justin. LOL! And then Jinger, our 10 yo, has one buddy: Jedidiah, the other twin (5) I really like that buddy idea And then John-David (14), twin to Jana, his buddy is Josiah, who is 8...but Josiah's old enough that he doesn't really need a buddy any longer. I think that covered everyone!

So at twelve years old Jessa was responsible for getting a five-year-old and a toddler up and ready every day. My guess is that the buddy system was settled when Jason was little. If you assume it started soon after Jason was born these are the ages and buddy arrangements when it first began.

Josh (12)-Joseph (5)

Jana (10)-Jason (baby)

John David (10)-Josiah (3)

Jill (9) -Joy(2)

Jessa (7) -Jeremiah (1)

Jinger (6) -Jeddiah (1)

I think it's telling that Josh one of the eldest children had the oldest child to need a buddy. They may have had other arrangements though this is pure speculation on my part. But by the time Jackson was born I do have proof of the buddy arrangements.

Another little gem from that chat is this quote:

I think my older ones being trained to have a servant's heart has been the key.

[alba]

I think the line is crossed when the sibling is doing the majority of the caretaking. I don't have an issue with older siblings helping out. Even if say an older sibling had to watch younger siblings for an hour or so after school or help change a few diapers. But when every single day the older buddy is responsible for helping get their younger buddy dressed, fed and educated that's crossing the line. I think in one episode Jill mentions that she changed Joy's diapers. Jill is seven years older then Joy. I also doubt that it was a few diapers that Jill was changing at seven years old.

:pink-shock:

I was seven when my youngest sister was born. I don't remember ever being allowed to even *hold* her outside of seated, posed photo-ops, with my mum right there behind the camera. There's no way I'd have been (presumably) carrying her to the changing table and changing her diaper alone.

With both my younger sisters I remember being there with my mum when she changed diapers, so it's not a stretch to imagine that I might have helped by handing her a clean diaper or the wipes or something, but I certainly wouldn't have done it all myself.

[mebeforee]

It irritates me that almost all of the girls (except Jinger) have two buddies, while Josh and John-David no longer have buddies, because their buddies are apparently old enough not to need them anymore. While the girls get more and more children to be primary caretaker to, the older boys just outgrow their responsibilities? If those ones no longer need buddies, shouldn't it make sense that they'd each take on a younger buddy and Josh and JD would take a new buddy? That way everyone has one buddy instead of the girls having to double up?

[paganhomeschooler]

We've got 4 kids. They pair up, but it's by choice, usually. Occasionally, I will ask one of my older kids (who happen to be girls, but if they were boys, I'd ask, too), to each hold a younger one's hand if I've got my hands full. My boys don't necessarily need their hands held often anymore, but if I'm distracted and we're in a busy place, it makes it easier because the 10 yo is very distractible, and TBH, he's "wandered" on me several times, so I try to nip that when I can! lol The littler guy is just 6, so he could still use a hand in a busy parking lot.

Anyway, my oldest daughter and son and younger daughter and son pair off together. They are the most like each other (oldest of each gender favor my personality, younger favor my husband.) They also pair off boys v. girls at home when they're playing. They've all got chores. Youngest doesn't have near as many responsibilities as the older ones because he's the baby and my husband spoils him. :evil: I think I'm the only person who tells him no. I try, and the big kids just shower him with affection and do his work for him. He'll even run to his sister from time to time, for the mere fact he knows I am less likely to baby him, but she will. (Not that I think this is the case with the Duggars. The howlers and lost girls definitely seem to prefer their sister moms instead of J'Chelle in general.)

My girls do usually cook dinner for me, at least on nights I work (W-F). I did the same for my mom as an only child growing up. My girls love to cook. One of them wants to be a chef when she grows up, so it's good practice, and I work from home, so I'm here. My older son (who has still been homeschooled, but is FINALLY going back to public school this fall!!) will usually make us lunch on my work days when it's just the 2 of us. The littlest isn't allowed to use the stove yet. They're also responsible for putting away their own laundry. They help me with hanging out laundry. The girls know how to wash laundry, as well. My 10 yo is just getting to the age and will learn soon. They've been doing hard core cleaning with me this week since we've got company coming this weekend, but they're the ones who trash the house, so I really think it's their responsibility to help. That's included washing walls and scrubbing floors while I've been sorting, purging, reorganizing, etc.

I think it's good life skills for them to have. My mom did all the cleaning when I was a kid, and becoming caretaker to my own home was very overwhelming. I'm trying to instill in my kids the sense of responsibility for their things and environment now, so they're more prepared for that in the future. My husband isn't much help because he's usually gone for work before the kids get up and rarely gets home before they're in bed. Sometimes he's not home before I'm done with work, and I work til midnight. :-/ He does that at least 6 days a week and is doing vehicle repairs/home repairs on his day off, so it's just me and the kids to do the housework.

While they may do chores for longer than 1 hour a day at times (as a previous poster said would be unreasonable), if they didn't make the mess, they wouldn't have to do it! lol I will usually let them take a break if they are cleaning for a long time. They all have the chance to play and be kids, though. Today, it was bike riding with the neighbors. Oldest has had band practice all week and will be going to a bday party Saturday and leaving for band camp Sunday, even though it's my birthday. The younger ones have been playing in the sandbox and swinging and digging in the garden, playing with toads in my koi pond in progress, etc. Being responsible/helpful yet still maintaining a childhood is definitely doable. They've got softball and taekwondo and basketball camp, etc.