HBO Documentary "Questioning Darwin"

[artdecades]

I don't think this has been discussed here yet. It is a really interesting companion to the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate. Ham and others discuss all their beliefs which is contrasted against a history of Darwin as a scientist and of evolution and society.

One of the more interesting things is the focus on death, destruction, torture, and other terrible things. They discuss Darwin witnessing slavery and death and not being able to reconcile that with a good god, and then they have this family with a daughter paralyzed in a car crash who is still believing no matter what. Several of the people interviewed will say that nothing will ever change their minds about creation. They believe the bible to be fact, and no amount of evidence will sway them.

A quote from the film also in the article below

If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that says two plus two equals five, I wouldn’t question what I’m reading in the Bible. I would believe it—accept it as true and then do my best to work it out and to understand it.

Slate has a good article on it (not breaking link because slate)

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... alism.html

you can also watch it on HBOGO if you have it.

[Janes Heir]

I was raised with the "if the Word of God says it, it is true no matter what the evidence of my senses may

seem to indicate to the contrary" and I still feel the pull of that kind of faith. However the " 2 plus 2 equals 5" is just so Orwellian! Do these people realize that, and actually think quoting Big Brother is going to help their cause? It's also ironic considering how many fundies believe the police state is trying to brain-wash everyone... to believe 2 + 2 is 4, I guess. Ow, my brain is in knots.

Edited for riffles; I am on mobile.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I just recorded this after hearing Bill Maher mention it the other night (Bill Nye was on his show if anyone is interested in seeing it). Haven't watched it yet.

[Swamptribe]

Wow, the Slate article is wonderful. A very good read. It sums up the frightening anti-intellectualism that is so prevalent in segments of modern society.

[artdecades]

I just recorded this after hearing Bill Maher mention it the other night (Bill Nye was on his show if anyone is interested in seeing it). Haven't watched it yet.

I cannot stand Bill Maher, but I just watched the segment with Bill Nye. I think Maher brings up a great point, which is reflected in the documentary and in Nye's debate, that no matter how many scientific facts that you bring up, such as the tree rings, they don't get it because they were never taught to understand. I grew up learning about science and evolution as a non-disputable fact, and those concepts make sense to me. A tree grows a new layer of bark every year and internal, dead ones mark the passing of that time. But these concepts are so foreign to those who were taught creationism. The idea of tree rings, which is the kind of science that most kids learn in elementary school and not complex, is beyond because creationists are taught by creationists.

It does make me wonder if it is worth it then, to put in the effort to debate. None of them are going to change their tune about it and I am losing hope that this will inspire any children to think against what their parents tell them. Its easier to believe in some book without doubt than the understand complexities of our natural world.

[julie paradox]

They don't agree with tree ring dating? Good grief... I don't even consider that science, it's just "an interesting fact about trees my mum told me when I was four."

(Probably at the same time as "five hundred oak trees here lost their heads in 1554". Quite possibly on Boxing Day, the park being a traditional Bank Holiday destination.)

[debrand]

I do think that debates-along with a little mockery- does help change people's minds. The problem is that such change takes a long time and isn't settled with one encounter, no matter how logical. When I was a teenager, no one in their right mind thought that any states would allow same sex marriage. The fight took a long time and a lot of effort but people's minds are changing on same sex marriage. There is no reason that people's minds can't change about evolution.

There needs to be more Christian scientists who start to speak out on the issue. More people would accept evolution if they didn't believe that it somehow would destroy their faith.

Defeating fundamentalism in the United States will go a long way toward ending the creationism/evolution debate.

[JenniferJuniper]

I do think that debates-along with a little mockery- does help change people's minds. The problem is that such change takes a long time and isn't settled with one encounter, no matter how logical. When I was a teenager, no one in their right mind thought that any states would allow same sex marriage. The fight took a long time and a lot of effort but people's minds are changing on same sex marriage. There is no reason that people's minds can't change about evolution.

There needs to be more Christian scientists who start to speak out on the issue. More people would accept evolution if they didn't believe that it somehow would destroy their faith.

Defeating fundamentalism in the United States will go a long way toward ending the creationism/evolution debate.

This is the "fundamental" problem, and the reason I found this a difficult film to watch.

If your entire belief system is based on the Bible being 100% literal and the actual words of a God of all creation, then you cannot accept that the theory of evolution is true in any way. To do so would be faith-destroying to these people, which is why no light will ever get in. The are absolute black and white thinkers.

Beyond fundies though, the fact that 45% of Americans believe in Creationism is downright terrifying and a sad commentary on the state of our public school systems.

[debrand]

This is the "fundamental" problem, and the reason I found this a difficult film to watch.

If your entire belief system is based on the Bible being 100% literal and the actual words of a God of all creation, then you cannot accept that the theory of evolution is true in any way. To do so would be faith-destroying to these people, which is why no light will ever get in. The are absolute black and white thinkers.

Beyond fundies though, the fact that 45% of Americans believe in Creationism is downright terrifying and a sad commentary on the state of our public school systems.

And don't forget those people vote and we have a very powerful military. :(

This might seem like only an American problem but when you include how powerful the United States is, the entire world should be concerned that so many Americans are black and white thinkers.

People do leave fundamentalism so change can happen but it takes work on the individual's part and most of us are lazy.

[Nobodysdoormat]

I wish they had more "intellectual" types on the religious side. Come on, the ex-crack-addicted prostitute that seemed to think Darwin was alive today and just needed to hear the good news about Jesus?!? There are articulate and educated creationists that they could have had on but no they went for the emotional and semi-illiterate. Science can destroy creationism... Let them destroy the best of them not be content with exposing the least intelligent of the flock .to ridicule.

[doggie]

The biggest debunk to the "if the bible says it thats what it is" is that People can't not agree on what the bible says what it means what version is right or much of anything else about the bible. So of course they have to resort to the My version of the interpretation of the bible. But till Christians come to an agreement on the bible accepting one persons version of what is true is a bit silly. They all claim god makes it clear to them but god must be speaking in tongues as it seems everyone gets a different answer.

plus this leads to a leader coming up with why 2+2=5 and suckering on those fools into doing what he wants them to do while they think they are following god. the more a believer believes the easier they are to control them ore gullible they are.

[acheronbeach]

(Probably at the same time as "five hundred oak trees here lost their heads in 1554".

???

[debrand]

I wish they had more "intellectual" types on the religious side. Come on, the ex-crack-addicted prostitute that seemed to think Darwin was alive today and just needed to hear the good news about Jesus?!? There are articulate and educated creationists that they could have had on but no they went for the emotional and semi-illiterate. Science can destroy creationism... Let them destroy the best of them not be content with exposing the least intelligent of the flock .to ridicule.

I can't watch the documentary because I don't get HBO. :cry: Perhaps the reason that there are more intellectual types on the side of evolution is because you have to be in denial to accept literal creationism as true. If there was a documentary about flat earthers and people who aren't flat earthers, no one would be surprised that there are more intelligent people who disagree with the idea that our earth is not a sphere.

When ever I have read the online debates between creationists and people who accept evolution, the creationists just go in circles and don't even respond to evidence against their views.

I am not saying that all creationists are stupid but I think that it is less likely that an intelligent person who has researched all the evidence will remain a creationist just as I think that it is less likely that an intelligent person who has looked at all the evidence will remain a flat earther.

[debrand]

We need more Christian scientists to come forward and debate. The right has described the conflict as between Christians and the secular world but it isn't. Christians can accept evolution and still have deep faith. The debate is actually between those in denial and those who accept reality.

[Cannelle]

Several of the people interviewed will say that nothing will ever change their minds about creation. They believe the bible to be fact, and no amount of evidence will sway them.

When people say things like that, all I can hear is, "For the love of God, don't ever put me on a jury."

I wonder how people that spout this crap would react if I told them, "I believe you are a child rapist, and no amount of evidence will sway me from that belief. Tata, off to warn everyone I know about you!"

[artdecades]

I wish they had more "intellectual" types on the religious side. Come on, the ex-crack-addicted prostitute that seemed to think Darwin was alive today and just needed to hear the good news about Jesus?!? There are articulate and educated creationists that they could have had on but no they went for the emotional and semi-illiterate. Science can destroy creationism... Let them destroy the best of them not be content with exposing the least intelligent of the flock .to ridicule.

I do think that people on the side of science and rational thought get a little caught up in mockery of those who believe in creationism. However, I think its important to show those on the other side's blind faith and lack of critical thinking when it comes to these issues. Yes, there are relatively intelligent people who believe in creation, but they are as blind and irrational as anyone when it comes to these topics.

I also think its a good contrast to Ray Comforts ambush man on the streets interviews. He goes up to people and starts rapidly peppering them with questions and when they can't answer immediately he uses this as proof that they are wrong or indoctrinated (example of this in Evolution vs God).

[susykt4]

I was brought up fundie, but in an educated, upper-middle class family. I started questioning my religion in 3rd grade and was never able to believe in a strict interpretation of the bible, even though it was crammed down my throat from birth. My entire extended family has always been Creationists, but recently they are starting to go along with Young Earth Creationism. This just completely and utterly blows my mind. These are not stupid people. My cousin just included me in an email exchange with his parents and two siblings. My uncle is a well-respected surgeon and both of the YEC-believing cousins have master's degrees from good public universities. They have decided that if they are going to take a fundamentalist view of the bible, they need to believe the creation story literally and YEC fits the bill. My atheist cousin tried arguing ice layers and tree rings and fossil layers. It made no difference. They just felt sorry for him and his lack of belief.

I watched the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate and the HBO documentary. I don't think the debate made a bit of difference to anyone on either side and I agree with others that I wish the documentary had included more credible people and fewer "ignorant victims". I wish I could understand why I couldn't believe what my friends and family had no trouble accepting. It was so confusing as a teen to realize that my other "rebel friends" were only rebelling against some of the silly things about our church (head coverings, clothes, strange traditions) but still completely believed the stuff we were taught. My best childhood church friend just posted fb pics of her family trip to the Creation Museum. She didn't join the church, but she switched to a fundie-lite alternative...

[doggie]

this total denial of reality really is the devils work. it lets people be easily controlled and manipulated. these doing so are seldom doing it for the good of the people they are doing it too and are seldom great people. The devil loves nothing more then fooling Christians and the blind faith is the best tool of all the irony really makes the devil chuckle.

[debrand]

I think that it might be more helpful to ask why people want to disbelieve in evolution and to really listen to the answers. It has nothing to do with truth but has to do instead with fears that individuals have with what they think evolution means.

For example, whenever a person angrily states that they don't come from monkeys there is always a tone of offense as though the very idea is repulsive. Of course, scientists don't believe that we come from monkeys but that we share a common ancestor with primates. That isn't really what upsets the creationist. They want to believe that human beings are special and different. Their real problem is that humans might not be more important than any other animal

Another question that gets asked a lot is, Where does good come from or why be good without god? I think that this question gets misconstrued as the religious person saying that they need the threat of hell to be good. That isn't what they are asking. What they want to know is where morals come from and why they should follow one set of morals over the other. Answering these questions would go a long way in helping some religious people accept evolution

Although there is no way to be a hundred percent certain that there isn't a higher power, I think the existence of a god is as likely as the existence of invisible unicorns. However, I've come to the realization that some people honestly need the comfort they receive from the idea a loving deity. Instead of trying to drive their faith away, I just want to nudge them to the left just a tiny bit.

[julie paradox]

???

Sorry. Not sure why I was rambling so much then (pretty certain I wasn't tipsy).

The park in question was Lady Jane Grey's home. I don't actually know whether the story is true...

[doggie]

Although there is no way to be a hundred percent certain that there isn't a higher power, I think the existence of a god is as likely as the existence of invisible unicorns. However, I've come to the realization that some people honestly need the comfort they receive from the idea a loving deity. Instead of trying to drive their faith away, I just want to nudge them to the left just a tiny bit.

I don't like to say there is no god I like to say there very well may be a god but why would he/she/it ever conform to a man made religion? I am sure it is smarter then anything written that man has messed up.