Are You A Pro-'Gay' Bigot?

[ADoyle90815]

I guess I'm a bigot in that I think homosexuals should be able to marry the person they love, and to have equal rights as human beings.

I love one quote someone on Facebook posted from an Episcopal priest saying that "religious persecution means you're not able to practice your religion, but it's not persecution when people object to having your beliefs forced on them."

[GolightlyGrrl]

If all those things make me a bigot, then I guess that's what I am. Room for another on board the Bigot Boat...?

I'm on boat!

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[dairyfreelife]

My responses to FROM in bold...

1. Do you believe in free speech about homosexuality for everyone except conservatives or Christians?

Yes. Just because I think someone's speech is awful and cruel does not mean they cannot voice their opinion. As long as threats to someone's life aren't involved in the speech. However, free speech goes both ways. You have the right to say what you want and I have the right to tell you are wrong and why.

2. Do you participate in name-calling of those who object to homosexuality -- names like bigot, hate-monger, etc.?

And what about all those names people call homosexuals? Faggot, fairy, fruit loop, using the word gay as an insult "that's so gay", need I go on? Look up what the word bigot. It's not name-calling to say someone is being a bigot.

3. Do you believe ‘gays’ have been deprived of the right to marry? Doesn’t pretty much everyone have the right to marry now -- to a person of the opposite sex?

Yes, I do. And no, they do not entirely. An adult does not have the right to marry a minor or a non-human and by current law polygamy and polyandry are not legal in the US law.

4. Do you believe those who object to homosexuality are motivated by fear or ignorance? Do you believe they could never be motivated by compassion for the people involved, and if they say so, they must be lying?,

Yes, either/or. Why do they need compassion? Some religious people probably think it's a sin and therefore have a genuine fear of said person going to hell, but I think that religious person needs more compassion than the gay person in such a case.

5. Do you believe some people will just inevitably be homosexual, and that there’s a set percentage of the population that will always be ‘gay’, and that this won’t increase, even if a culture embraces ‘gay’ sex? Do you think homosexual experimentation could never become ‘chic’ and popular? Is there no risk for the people involved or our culture if this happens?

Yes, some people appear to be born homosexual. No, there's not a set percentage that will always be gay and that will never increase. Set percentages of genetics do not exist, but that's biology and evolution, which FROM likely does not think exists. A culture's embrace of homosexuality has nothing to do with it, though such embrace will likely mean people will more likely to admit that they have had such feelings and not be afraid anymore. No, I don't think homosexuality will ever be "chic" because I've never heard of "chic" sex. There are ups and downs in many cultures and yes, experimentation may happen. I don't see the issue, so no, I don't think there's much risk involved to our culture is some consenting adult men or women are experimenting in the bedroom so long as they use protection to prevent possible std spread.

6. Do you automatically dismiss any conservative comments about homosexuality without listening? Do you believe you are well-informed, while refusing to learn about what homosexuals actually do and the risks involved?

I listen, but all comments I've heard are dismissed as they do have any factual basis whatsoever in my experience. Latter comment: Now that's what I call irony.

7. Do you believe that the tragedy of any suicide by someone involved in homosexuality is the fault of conservatives? Is the best solution to these tragedies to demand that everyone in America accept homosexuality?

No, it's the fault of a number of things, but society's attitude certainly plays a part in many cases. Well, telling them if they don't stop having feelings for the same gender, though they are consensual relationships, they are going to end up in hell and their friends and family all abandon and shame them leaving them to fend for themselves in many ways until they change...that might play a part.

8. Do you automatically dismiss the idea that anyone could be a former homosexual, despite the hundreds of groups started by ex-‘gays’ and the thousands who live in America?

Yes. Yes, I do. Why? Because there's been too many claims to the damage such programs cause instead of helping people.

9. Do you believe that homosexuals are born that way? Do you refuse to consider the evidence against this claim? Have you ever looked at the connection between child sexual abuse and later homosexual attraction?

Yes, I do. Show me the evidence because I've not seen any peer-reviewed science yet. Yes, but it's not there. There are homosexuals who have been sexually abused as children, but there are just as many, probably more who were not abused at all as children.

10. Do you believe that only churches that accept homosexuality have interpreted the Bible in the ‘correct’ way? Do you feel it isn’t necessary to read the relevant Bible passages yourself, all of which are straightforward in condemning homosexual acts? Do you believe it’s impossible to be “kind†and oppose homosexuality

No, I don't. I have read the entire Bible already. I believe you can be kind to people, but not like what they do. However, this applies to friends and family more than random unknown people. From what I've seen, kindness to homosexuals does not seem to exist in those who oppose homosexuality.

11. Are you quick to say “Judge not, lest you be judged†( Matthew 7:1) and similar passages, without understanding the Christian theology behind it, and all the while being very judgmental yourself?

Oh, irony, how I love thee...

12. Do you sincerely believe Jesus would have accepted homosexual sex acts? Do you believe Jesus is cool with whatever anyone wants to do? Do you believe there’s such a thing as ‘sin’ and if so, how is it defined? Are you the one who defines sin for yourself? Do you have no need of a savior and if not, wasn’t Christ’s death and resurrection pretty pointless? Despite all these contradictory and self-constructed beliefs, do you consider yourself a “Christian�

I don't know. It was probably shamed in his day, but I think he would told someone caught in such an act to not be stoned and for him/her to follow him. Going off what I read about him anyway. Yes, I believe "sin" exists, or wrong as I call it. I, and most others, define it as doing an act that harms someone else or yourself. Knowingly harming others is wrong. Yes and no as morality tends to agree with me in general across the board. No, I have "no" need for a savior (any need is correct grammar, btw). Well, I don't believe he resurrected and the way he died, assuming he ever existed in the first place, sounds bad, but death happens to us all. Such is life. What's contradictory about my beliefs? No, I do not.

13. Do you believe sweeping stereotypes, like that all ‘gay’ people are innocent victims or that all conservatives must be mean and stupid?

Um, no, who believes such things? C'mon now, FROM, you are getting ridiculous here.

14. Do you close your ears and figure it’s a conservative plot if you hear that at least 2/3 of all the HIV transmission in the United States still involves males having anal sex with each other?

In the US, sort of yes, but globally no. However, anal sex in and of itself doesn't cause HIV. If it did, many hetero couples would have such rates. There's a lot of history involved here and I want to brief, but do some real research before blowing statistics out your ass, FROM.

15. Do you believe anyone who objects to homosexuality is automatically “hateful,†while you seethe with hate yourself?

No, I think they are likely afraid or ignorant though. Some are just hateful. Hateful people exist.

16. Do you believe it’s okay for thirteen- year- olds to learn at school that they have the right to have homosexual sex with each other? Do you close your ears when concerned parents are outraged? Would you call such parents “ignorant†and accuse them of “censorship�

13yos don't learn having sex at their age is okay, period. They shouldn't be having any sex whatsoever. But to learn that homosexuality is not evil at 13, so what? So, yes, I do think it's okay for them to learn to not be bigots. No, I roll my eyes instead. They usually are ignorant and afraid of unknowns, but don't accuse them censorship...I accuse them of being naive.

17. Do you believe that, after several thousand years where most cultures have prohibited homosexuality, only now the ‘real’ truth is emerging? Do you believe this is not an arrogant, narrow or immature position?

Do you believe that, after several thousand years where most cultures have enslaved people and saw women as commodities, only now the "real" truth is emerging? Do you believe this is not an arrogant, narrow, or immature position?

18. Do you believe that ‘gays’ are the target of widespread violence that goes unpunished in the United States? Do you understand that hate crimes stats don’t support this claim and that laws already exist to punish all crimes, no matter why they are committed? Would you be unconcerned about overall civil liberties if trumped -up charges of so-called “hate speech†were used to silence people?

Yes, I do. Hate statistics actually do support this claim. Just because laws exist does not mean all criminal acts are punished. FROM, you really can't be that stupid to believe that all crimes are probably punished according to the law? That no guilty person has ever walked away free? Two words: Emmett Till. No, I would not, but there's a difference between hate speech and disagreement.

19. Do you believe that conservatives are making a big deal out of a behavior that has no harmful effects on individuals, families, communities, or societies? Do you scoff at any claims that serious public health issues are involved, like sexually transmitted diseases or risks to children?

Yes, I do. You said it yourself, it does not have any harmful effects to others. What public health issues? STDs are a risk to everyone who isn't careful. What risk to children?

20 And--very big question: Is your need for other people’s approval greater than your appreciation of truth? Do you refuse to consider an unpopular viewpoint because it might make you appear unenlightened to some people? If your mind and heart changed about this issue, would you have the courage to be a rebel for a worthy cause, to speak up and inform family, friends--and fellow humans who are involved in homosexuality?

No, I appreciate truth more. lol, unpopular viewpoint...I'm the only atheist in a family of Christians while living in the Bible belt of the US...spare me. My heart and mind already have changed...to where it is now on this issue. Nope, no I don't because I'm fighting for the over side.

From

[moonbeam59]

Is this Bizarro World? Are we supposed to be "tolerant" of sexism and racism, too? This is really a new one for me :think:

If someone believes the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, I can tolerate that personal belief. What I cannot accept is someone taking that belief as a mandate to hate or discriminate against another human being. The Bible says many ridiculous things are sin, and also tells us "let him who is without sin, cast the first stone." And all that aside, do not attempt to legislate your personal religious beliefs. It is not "intolerance" to condemn hatred and discrimination or to insist on the separation between church and state.

This persecution complex that many Christians seem to have is just mind-boggling.

[RosyDaisy]

Many Christians have no clue what persecution really is. Just the other day a fundie cousin told me that she thought it was only a matter of time before Bibles disappeared from bookshelves. My reply: "Probably because there's an app for that". I pulled out my Nexus 7 and showed her the Bible app I use and all of the free Bible apps and books available from the Google Play Store. I then told her "I'm pretty sure those same apps are available for your iPad as well. Maybe you should give it a try and stop whining. She shut up after that.

[docmom]

John Boswell's Christianity, Social Tolerance, & Homosexuality is a great text on how homosexuality has been viewed. One of the early texts in queer studies.

The Ancient Greeks viewed homosexuality in the millitary as a good thing with some units actually organized around partners. Early Christians were influenced quite heavily by the Greeks...

Eva Cantarella, Bisexuality in the Ancient World (Yale University Press, 1992/2002)

[FeministShrew]

That would be James Buchanan who was President 1857-1861...just before Lincoln. Also, wasn't King James I of England an open homosexual? You would think that fundies wouldn't be so adamant about the KJV being the only correct version of the Bible because of that.

The KJV-only fundies I know insist that he wasn't really gay, that's just slander by Satan to discredit The One True Bible .

[slickcat79]

When is disagreement with popular opinion bigoted or hate? I think it's the actions that cause the problem like calling for the death of gays org refusing them service etc Simply disagreeing is a far cry ffrom that. Calling others bigots and homophobes is counterproductive in debates and manupalitive. It says your opinion is above the other. When Perez Hilton posts a pic of Miley Cyrus with penises around isn't that a form of hate and disrespect? It is it OK for him to demean women? Is it OK for him to mark down a beauty contestant because he disagreed with their opinion? To me it's the pot calling the kettle black. I don't agree with all the points of the article but yes bigotry can be two way street.

That doesn't make any sense. Of course it's not ok to demean women, but it's not a two-way street because they're not the same street. Perez Hilton is a gay man. He also has some douchebag tendencies. Those two things are not related. He is not a douchebag because he is gay, and other gay people do not (necessarily) discriminate against women or racial minorites or other groups. Perez and other gay/lesbian people do not deserve to have their rights restricted on the basis of their homosexuality simply because they are jerks. They just deserve to be called out on their shitty behavior.

And maybe you can elaborate on "simply disagreeing" with popular opinion re: homosexuality? Do you disagree that homosexuals exist? Disagree that they are "born that way" or otherwise hardwired to same-sex attraction? Disagree that they deserve the same rights as straight people, regardless of why they are gay? Because really, claiming that a certain group doesn't deserve to exist or shouldn't have equal rights is pretty bigoted. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to hold that opinion, but if you share it you might find that people will call it like they see it :?

[thoughtful]

I think my answers to all of the questions are pretty predictable here -- put me in the boat.

However, I would like to answer this one:

20 And--very big question: Is your need for other people’s approval greater than your appreciation of truth? Do you refuse to consider an unpopular viewpoint because it might make you appear unenlightened to some people? If your mind and heart changed about this issue, would you have the courage to be a rebel for a worthy cause, to speak up and inform family, friends--and fellow humans who are involved in homosexuality?

No, my need for approval and going along with the crowd does not outweigh my appreciation of truth.

That is why, when my high school boyfriend came out of the closet to me in the early 1970s, my final take-away opinion (I won't bore you all with the whole story) was that people should be left the hell alone to date, love, and marry who they want. Had he taken some nice fellow to the prom, and had I been with someone else (or even alone), everyone would have been happier.

Bigotry against gay people, like all kinds of bigotry, set off my "this is completely illogical" alarm -- I just hadn't really thought about it until it entered my young life.

At the time, where I lived, thinking gay people should be able to life their lives in the open instead of in the closet was, in fact, an unpopular opinion, and going against the crowd.

I'm just happy the crowd is finally catching up.

[lawlifelgbt]

I was thinking about this antigay "bigotry" and persecution complex some Christians seem to have, because Partner is going to move in with me in a few weeks. So she's here visiting me. Imagine, if those Christians had their way, I wouldn't be able to introduce her to my classmates, or get her on my lease and get her her own keys and parking spot. Because people would "morally object" to us "living in sin," or even living openly. They would legally be able to discriminate, instead of state law providing sexual orientation as a protected class. I would be afraid and ashamed.

That's not the kind of world I want, so I have no problem putting up with some people calling me a "pro-gay" bigot.

[Fanraeth]

The Ancient Greeks viewed homosexuality in the millitary as a good thing with some units actually organized around partners. Early Christians were influenced quite heavily by the Greeks...

Eva Cantarella, Bisexuality in the Ancient World (Yale University Press, 1992/2002)

There was the Sacred Band of Thebes, comprised solely of gay couples. The theory went that a man would fight even more valiantly if his lover was by his side.

[Full enough quiver]

I was thinking about this antigay "bigotry" and persecution complex some Christians seem to have, because Partner is going to move in with me in a few weeks. So she's here visiting me. Imagine, if those Christians had their way, I wouldn't be able to introduce her to my classmates, or get her on my lease and get her her own keys and parking spot. Because people would "morally object" to us "living in sin," or even living openly. They would legally be able to discriminate, instead of state law providing sexual orientation as a protected class. I would be afraid and ashamed.

That's not the kind of world I want, so I have no problem putting up with some people calling me a "pro-gay" bigot.

Good luck with the move. I hope it all goes smoothly, and that you two are very happy together. More love in the world can only be a good thing :)

[FreeJosie]

3. Do you believe ‘gays’ have been deprived of the right to marry? Doesn’t pretty much everyone have the right to marry now -- to a person of the opposite sex?

This is the most ludicrous anti-gay marriage argument, and I've seen it a lot. Yeah, it's great that gay people have the right to marry someone whom they're not attracted to! Whenever someone tries this "we already have equal marriage rights!" argument, I counter with, "Yes, and when gay marriage is legal, we still will! You can marry someone of the same sex too!"

9. Do you believe that homosexuals are born that way? Do you refuse to consider the evidence against this claim? Have you ever looked at the connection between child sexual abuse and later homosexual attraction?

Funny how two of my four siblings are gay, and neither experienced childhood sexual abuse. Yeah, no genetic component there.

[August]

I'm a pro-gay bigot, I'm also an anti-nazi bigot and an anti mass-murderer bigot. Poor ol' close-minded me, I'll never learn the joys of killing people for fun and profit. Oh well. A bigot has to do what a bigot has to do.

[Full enough quiver]

Raise your hand if you experienced childhood sexual abuse and you're heterosexual. The only way I could see that happening was if the person was bisexual, and because of the trauma of abuse, they chose to be with same sex partners. The abuse still didn't "make them gay".

[lawlifelgbt]

@Full enough quiver: Sex abuse doesn't make a person bi either. Partner was abused, and maintains her bisexuality was not caused or added to by that. It's more her ideas about her gender expression than anything, so I think it must be most closely tied to that. There's this idea that bi people don't have a gender in their heads, and I can see that, as how she acts and dresses is all over the map, gender-wise.

Just my two cents.

[Rachel333]

More anecdotal evidence: I'm gay and, while hardly a shining example of mental health (I feel really guilty about that, actually) was not abused as a child at all. It really irritates me when people assume that. When I told my doctor about an experience that was not consensual and quite upsetting and kind of helped trigger a bad spiral last year, he asked me if that was what turned me into a lesbian. Nope, not at all.

[Full enough quiver]

That's what I meant. I don't think being abused can make you gay. I do think that if you already have same sex attraction, possibly having bad experiences with the opposite gender could make you more inclined to explore that. Like Hellena, who said she used to be a lesbian because men had abused her, and when she "got over it", she liked men again. She was probably bi to begin with, then her bad experiences with men drove her to women. She wouldn't have gone with women if that attraction wasn't there to begin with.

[Fanraeth]

Growing up fundie and gay, the sexual abuse thing really bothered me. I had no memory of any sort of abuse and because of my family's severe isolation, my father and one of my uncles who lived with us briefly were the only men in a position to abuse me. So for awhile I was completely convinced my dad or my uncle had molested me and I had repressed the memories. It wasn't until I started to research and read things from a non-fundie perspective that I was able to accept that nothing had happened to me. That was a huge burden taken off my teenaged shoulders.

[Full enough quiver]

Growing up fundie and gay, the sexual abuse thing really bothered me. I had no memory of any sort of abuse and because of my family's severe isolation, my father and one of my uncles who lived with us briefly were the only men in a position to abuse me. So for awhile I was completely convinced my dad or my uncle had molested me and I had repressed the memories. It wasn't until I started to research and read things from a non-fundie perspective that I was able to accept that nothing had happened to me. That was a huge burden taken off my teenaged shoulders.

That must have been really hard for you. I'm sorry you had to go through such unnecessary pain. I look forward to a day when we stop pathologizing homosexuality, and it becomes just another trait, like red hair or left handedness.