Pant Wearing Munck's

[silverspoons]

About a year ago I remember Mama Munck hinting that the girls did still own pants. It seemed to suggest the girls wore pants at work everyday and perferred skirts when not at work(Mama Muck was angry when someone posted about the girls only wearing skirts & she was mad that people jumped to the conclusion). Her recent post shows the girls wearing pants.

I wonder if Steve ever got to go to the Doggie daycare and see the girls working in pants & interacting with customers (possible single men/women) ? Between the pants, Elizabeth watching full house, and reading classics how did she ever slip through the Maxwell screening process?

So do all the Munck kids want to be in the doggie daycare business for life? It seems the 4 oldest have earned certificates in grooming after finishing homeschool. I believe Amanda and her husband both had the grooming certificate. It also seems like Mama Munck has the real degree in as a vet tech and trained her husband! As much as it looks like the do love each other and have fun working together, can all 12 kids really love pet care? Maybe?

[Mela99]

I think they saw her as "good enough" and would be happy to "groom her" to be a Maxwell. That's my guess on why she ran like hell a week before the wedding.

[Justme]

They haven't been "down the rabbit hole" for to long. There were blog pics of Liz getting her drivers license wearing jeans and a hoodie. She's about 21, so that would be 5 years ago. There were other pics of them wearing shorts and modest, but normal, swimwear. They do show hope of maybe turning fundie light.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

They haven't been "down the rabbit hole" for to long. There were blog pics of Liz getting her drivers license wearing jeans and a hoodie. She's about 21, so that would be 5 years ago. There were other pics of them wearing shorts and modest, but normal, swimwear. They do show hope of maybe turning fundie light.

Yep. I can't remind people of this enough - the Muncks only went to their very first ever Maxwell conference in 2008, when Elizabeth was already 16 years old, with a picture of her on the internet standing in front of her own car in jeans and a hoodie, looking like a normal teenager.

I'm sure the family was already fundie then, but not to Maxwell levels. They were wowed by the whole thing, loved it, and immediately went for a bunch more conferences. That means they encountered the same "Hearts" content that horrifies me, and thought it was great inspirational role model stuff. So...

(1) the mind utterly boggles, and

(2) again, Liz was 16. That's only 2 years before normal kids move away (at least temporarily). She has FAR more formative experiences and a complete personality before the Maxwellia came in. I'm not too surprised that she decided this wasn't for her, despite what her parents maybe chose to do.

[nelliebelle1197]

They haven't been "down the rabbit hole" for to long. There were blog pics of Liz getting her drivers license wearing jeans and a hoodie. She's about 21, so that would be 5 years ago. There were other pics of them wearing shorts and modest, but normal, swimwear. They do show hope of maybe turning fundie light.

I think it is more like they WERE light but have turned more fundie. Old photos showing them less strict means they USED to be less strict. So did the Maxwells.

[MissBitters]

I thought this part of today's post was interesting:

One of the biggest things they are learning to do is work with the public. We have clients from all walks of life and backgrounds, our children get to interact with people all day long....they are getting to see a glimpse of the real world. This interaction is helping shape them into who the Lord wants them to be....

I don't tend think everything Mama Munck writes is a slap to Steve Maxwell's face but this seems a bit pointed. It is very much the opposite of how the Maxwell children were raised. I still disagree with what they believe but am at least happy the family has backpedaled away from Steve's cult. It sounds like they (especially Elizabeth) were burned badly by their time with the Maxwell family and learned a lesson. I really, really want to know exactly what made Elizabeth call off the wedding and what happened when Steve found out!

[bookiewookie]

I thought this part of today's post was interesting:

I don't tend think everything Mama Munck writes is a slap to Steve Maxwell's face but this seems a bit pointed. It is very much the opposite of how the Maxwell children were raised. I still disagree with what they believe but am at least happy the family has backpedaled away from Steve's cult. It sounds like they (especially Elizabeth) were burned badly by their time with the Maxwell family and learned a lesson. I really, really want to know exactly what made Elizabeth call off the wedding and what happened when Steve found out!

Can you imagine the look on Steve's face when he realized that there was actually someone he couldn't control/bend to his will? I'd imagine that it was simultaneously terrifying and hilarious to behold.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im guessing "Wow, this family is a freak show. Joseph is nice enough, even if hes a bit weird and sheltered, but if I marry him I will also marry his creepy weirdo father. He is really controlling and sucks the fun out of life. Its soooo boring to be a Maxwell, they do nothing but pray and clean. If I marry into this mess I wont be allowed to enjoy all the things I love about life, like the amazing birthday parties my family throws. Hes a nice enough guy, if he would leave his family's creepy cult, but he wont, hes too brainwashed, and I cant let myself be tied down to someone like that and live a completely dull existence and have children who will never know the joy I had in my childhood."

I dont know how Steve would have reacted to finding out. He seems to be the kind of person to be completely cold about things, I cant imagine him with emotion.

[MamaJunebug]

...

I dont know how Steve would have reacted to finding out. He seems to be the kind of person to be completely cold about things, I cant imagine him with emotion.

Oh, by all accounts, he can dredge up plenty of emotion when the situation behooves him to do so.

There are the tears a-plenty on New Year's Eve, when the family celebrate on their knees in the family room, praying for lost souls.

There are tears during the shows they put on. Remember how it was described that Steve begins to weep while reading an e-mail from a confused mother/subscriber? And Terifying looks on compassionately, wiping away a tear.

The engagement-announcement photos of Joe and Liz showed it perfectly. She was standing at an angle to him, her head inclined in his direction. Her smile looked genuine. Every unconscious and conscious cue showed that she felt fond of him, was happy to be engaged.

He, on the other hand: Barely turned toward her, looking straight into the camera with head erect, chin high, kind of a smirking smile. He looked smug to be engaged.

The real test would've been if you'd cut the photo down the middle (there was at least a foot of space between them). Anybody looking at LIz's image would say, "This is half of a photo, there was somebody to her side."

Anybody looking at Joe's image would say, "He's posing for a photo of himself."

She was into the idea of marriage to him.

He was into the idea of marriage.

I imagine Steve's reaction to Papa Munck's phone call was one of cold reproach. "You know you a in danger of going to hell, and all your frivolous, fun-loving family with you. We. Will. Pray. For. You."

Before, IIRC it had been Christopher who called off the engagement to that lively Gothardite woman. This was a first, for a Maxwell to be the rejectee. Had to have been a baaaaad day on Santa Fe in Leavenworth, Kay-Ess!!!!

[lilwriter85]

Oh, by all accounts, he can dredge up plenty of emotion when the situation behooves him to do so.

There are the tears a-plenty on New Year's Eve, when the family celebrate on their knees in the family room, praying for lost souls.

There are tears during the shows they put on. Remember how it was described that Steve begins to weep while reading an e-mail from a confused mother/subscriber? And Terifying looks on compassionately, wiping away a tear.

The engagement-announcement photos of Joe and Liz showed it perfectly. She was standing at an angle to him, her head inclined in his direction. Her smile looked genuine. Every unconscious and conscious cue showed that she felt fond of him, was happy to be engaged.

He, on the other hand: Barely turned toward her, looking straight into the camera with head erect, chin high, kind of a smirking smile. He looked smug to be engaged.

The real test would've been if you'd cut the photo down the middle (there was at least a foot of space between them). Anybody looking at LIz's image would say, "This is half of a photo, there was somebody to her side."

Anybody looking at Joe's image would say, "He's posing for a photo of himself."

She was into the idea of marriage to him.

He was into the idea of marriage.

I imagine Steve's reaction to Papa Munck's phone call was one of cold reproach. "You know you a in danger of going to hell, and all your frivolous, fun-loving family with you. We. Will. Pray. For. You."

Before, IIRC it had been Christopher who called off the engagement to that lively Gothardite woman. This was a first, for a Maxwell to be the rejectee. Had to have been a baaaaad day on Santa Fe in Leavenworth, Kay-Ess!!!!

Yep it was Chris. An FJer found his ex-fiancee's blog last year. I remember her name was Sarah and she was doing some kind of missionary work in another country.

[Nickery]

I still hold out hope for the Muncks. I think daddy's cancer made them do some sort of 'deal' with God. Unfortunately it led them to the Maxwells.

[Melissa1977]

Muncks are very nice, but fundie or not, having so many children means not giving them individual attention. It must be difficult to br raised with so many siblings, mom always looking after the little ones.

Also I think mama Munck prefers girls and spends her time with daugthers, not sons. So I'm glad the new baby is a girl, she would be more cared, I think.

[Closed Womb]

I think they saw her as "good enough" and would be happy to "groom her" to be a Maxwell. That's my guess on why she ran like hell a week before the wedding.

My theory is very similar. I think, at first, she wanted to join the clan. People often have fantasies about being the "best" in their subculture (and about the accolades that gains them, small as they may be.) I don't know that I can name a devoutly Catholic woman over 40 who didn't, for at least a short time, seriously consider becoming a nun. When I was active in the church, I thought I was willing to become submissive and have (or at least adopt) many children. In the moment, it feels like you are drawing closer to a higher power, doing the right thing.

For those who have a hard time understanding, it happens outside of religions. Many a hippie harbors fantasies about living the way that they do at festivals all year round. People who are extremely ecological often dream about living entirely off the grid.

So, why don't people become nuns, submit to manly authority, or live off the land? Because it's hard, that's why (and in the case of submitting to manly authority, it's stupid [and, as it turns out, not even a desired construct by my husband].) People don't really want to give up sex, or autonomy, or comforts. But, yet, people still fantasize about "what if."

I think that is the case with Elizabeth. She got caught up in how perfectly righteous it would be to marry such a pious man, have many children, keep house, submit to authority, never wear pants, and basically be the best, most extreme Christian there is. But, when you take a step back, all those things sucketh, sucketh largely.

[Rosie]

I thought this part of today's post was interesting:

I don't tend think everything Mama Munck writes is a slap to Steve Maxwell's face but this seems a bit pointed. It is very much the opposite of how the Maxwell children were raised. I still disagree with what they believe but am at least happy the family has backpedaled away from Steve's cult. It sounds like they (especially Elizabeth) were burned badly by their time with the Maxwell family and learned a lesson. I really, really want to know exactly what made Elizabeth call off the wedding and what happened when Steve found out!

I had exactly the same reaction to that post.

[nokidsmom]

Im guessing "Wow, this family is a freak show. Joseph is nice enough, even if hes a bit weird and sheltered, but if I marry him I will also marry his creepy weirdo father. He is really controlling and sucks the fun out of life. Its soooo boring to be a Maxwell, they do nothing but pray and clean. If I marry into this mess I wont be allowed to enjoy all the things I love about life, like the amazing birthday parties my family throws. Hes a nice enough guy, if he would leave his family's creepy cult, but he wont, hes too brainwashed, and I cant let myself be tied down to someone like that and live a completely dull existence and have children who will never know the joy I had in my childhood."

I dont know how Steve would have reacted to finding out. He seems to be the kind of person to be completely cold about things, I cant imagine him with emotion.

Count me in as one of those that would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in both households: when Liz called it off and when Steve found out. I can envision Liz being pretty emotional about her decision but Steve would have taken it very coldly but would have been furious under it all.

I think the Muncks were enamored of the Maxwells while in their "going fundie" phase. Probably heard great things about them and their conferences, jumped on the Maxwell fan bandwagon and got to know them more personally. All was well until Liz and Joe got engaged. At first, becoming a Maxwell and being part of such a godly family appealed to Liz (as per Closed Womb's post above) but during the engagement, both she and her family found themselves with a front row seat to the weirdness and overall bleakness of the Maxwells lives. I suspect a lot of demands were made by Steve about the wedding and Joe probably told Liz how she was expected to live post marriage with stuff like "my Dad wants this" and my "Dad expects that". All of a sudden it wasn't so appealing. I can see Liz protesting some of it only to be completely shut down. It looks as if Liz really liked Joe and he probably liked her too, but he was too brainwashed to see anything wrong. Probably to this day, he doesn't realized what his cultlike family, driven by his Dad's crazy beliefs, cost him.

[Black Aliss]

I think Elizabeth was in love with the idea of getting married, period, and after Steve and Mr. Munck struck the deal and Liz was told she was getting married, she was pretty excited. Until she figured out that she couldn't even choose the colors of the walls in her new house, there would be no celebration tree, and most likely that there would be no family dog. I can totally see Joseph starting to boss her around and tell her what she needed to change after they were married. At that point perhaps she was no longer quite so excited about getting married.

[LucySnowe]

While I don't believe that everything Mama Munck writes is a direct 'up yours' to the Maxwells, I can imagine that when the engagement was called off (and I really hope the parents made that phone call, because that's a tough thing for a young woman to do - heck, for any woman - and based on her blog entry, she was an emotional mess), they learned what really lies behind the Maxwell smile. I suspect some extremely cutting things were said, ranging from criticisms of how the Muncks raise their children to direct attacks on Liz's ability to be a good helpmeet. And I wouldn't be surprised if that does lie behind some of the things said in the blog.

I hope that Liz reaches the point in her life where she can wholeheartedly say, without a single regret, "thank the Lord I didn't go through with it."

ETA: Or, perhaps, 'thank the rainbow goddess/Flying Spaghetti Monster I didn't go through with it.' Whatever works for her. :)

[Marian the Librarian]

Elizabeth dodged one big, nasty bullet when she backed out of that engagement. Smart girl.

[Kira]

Oh, by all accounts, he can dredge up plenty of emotion when the situation behooves him to do so.

There are the tears a-plenty on New Year's Eve, when the family celebrate on their knees in the family room, praying for lost souls.

There are tears during the shows they put on. Remember how it was described that Steve begins to weep while reading an e-mail from a confused mother/subscriber? And Terifying looks on compassionately, wiping away a tear.

The engagement-announcement photos of Joe and Liz showed it perfectly. She was standing at an angle to him, her head inclined in his direction. Her smile looked genuine. Every unconscious and conscious cue showed that she felt fond of him, was happy to be engaged.

He, on the other hand: Barely turned toward her, looking straight into the camera with head erect, chin high, kind of a smirking smile. He looked smug to be engaged.

The real test would've been if you'd cut the photo down the middle (there was at least a foot of space between them). Anybody looking at LIz's image would say, "This is half of a photo, there was somebody to her side."

Anybody looking at Joe's image would say, "He's posing for a photo of himself."

She was into the idea of marriage to him.

He was into the idea of marriage.

I imagine Steve's reaction to Papa Munck's phone call was one of cold reproach. "You know you a in danger of going to hell, and all your frivolous, fun-loving family with you. We. Will. Pray. For. You."

Before, IIRC it had been Christopher who called off the engagement to that lively Gothardite woman. This was a first, for a Maxwell to be the rejectee. Had to have been a baaaaad day on Santa Fe in Leavenworth, Kay-Ess!!!!

Wasn't it Christopher who called of the engagement. If I remember correctly, his fiancee was a little clingy(I can't think of a better word). She has two failed courtships. I think the Maxwell's were probably relieved when it was called off. Chris married Anna Marie a year or two later.

[dawbs]

Can you imagine the look on Steve's face when he realized that there was actually someone he couldn't control/bend to his will? I'd imagine that it was simultaneously terrifying and hilarious to behold.

I don't know if it's 'better' or 'worse' that I actually think Steve seeks out malleable people he can break--and on some level was disappointed in the end of the courtship because he knew, given enough time and freedom to overbear, he could break her (that's not a slam on her--I think, in the right [er, wrong] circumstances, everyone breaks).

(I'm writing this awkwardly, but, he strikes me as someone who is very aware about there being lots of people he can't control--he just knows that all he has to do is get his hooks properly in and he'll be able to change THAT about them.

It's like the Skinner arrogance of saying you can turn any child into anything, just give them enough conditioning)

[WonderingInWA]

Wasn't it Christopher who called of the engagement. If I remember correctly, his fiancee was a little clingy(I can't think of a better word). She has two failed courtships. I think the Maxwell's were probably relieved when it was called off. Chris married Anna Marie a year or two later.

I think it was Steve who called off the Christopher/Sara Smith engagement, but of course, he'll never admit that. I don't think she was clingy, I think she was too worldly and wasn't ready for Frumperville. She does have a blog. She has worked for Gothard for a few years in Chicago and done quite a bit of traveling, both domestic and abroad. She's pretty, stylish, but right -- she's got a couple of failed courtships under her belt, so in her world, she's probably considered tainted. The last time I read her blog, she said she'd quit her job, and I presumed that was the job with Gothard's organization (ATI) although she didn't say why. I don't know what she's doing now.