What if your child turns fundie...

[rene76]

It seems like most of us are leaning the same way. I realize there's only so much I can do if my sons turn fundie. I would try hard to respect their way of life. However, after reading Homeschooler's Anonymous, I would also research child abuse and keep my eyes open if I saw the family becoming more and more isolated. I can't imagine my sons abusing or condoning abuse, but it does happen.

[Mama Mia]

Seriously. My daughter is just going on 8, but she's already such a little feminist. She sees the examples of the strong women in her life, and she gets really riled up when we're talking about history, e.g. when I explained the fight for women's suffrage when I was telling why it's so important to be informed and to exercise your right to vote last November.

I just can't even fathom her turning fundie, but then I guess there are plenty of parents who thought it would never happen with their own children until it did. Like most here, there'd be no SAHD bullshit of any kind, but I'd bite my lip as much as need be to maintain a relationship.

The interesting thing that I've noticed is that it is the kids who have strong philosophical and intellectual opinions at a really, really young age ( like 8) are often the most likely to do a 180 on whatever their beliefs are. But they are also ( in my experience ) the ones who will then swing back again. I think it is because they are deep thinkers, so are always looking for something that makes sense in their lives - instead of just going with the flow.

On the SAHD topic , I think it is fascinating. There is such a HUGE number of young people who are neither in school or working , but these are the only ones who make it a purposeful lifestyle. The current numbers are 6.5 million United States youth 16-24 are neither working or in school.

Link to the article, not breaking because it's Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/0 ... 33450.html

[Jenny]

I don't have children but should I ever: college is non-negotiable. They will be going to an accredited 4 year school, live in the dorms and eat bad cafeteria food. It's a rite of passage.

I suppose it would help too to indoctrinate them from perhaps the teen years on. Something like..."look at the Duggers and the Maxwells, etc... do you want a life like that...stay home and do chores all day...no friends...no hobbies except a musical instrument that you may not have chosen?...no alone time...etc.

I have no problems with daughters getting married and staying home having kids. But any kid of mine is going to be strongly encouraged to get an education and a backup plan first.

[mebeforee]

This actually happened to my eldest brother. My family is very liberal, and in fact the brother in question is gay. He was always more religious than the rest of us, reading the Bible and attending youth Christian stuff independently of what our family did. His best friend in high school was a conservative Christian, where our family is very liberal in our belief system (and my mother also believes in reincarnation and ghosts, somehow).

Anyway, when he started college, he and his friend joined an evangelical church on campus. My parents didn't really understand it, but they tried to be supportive. Unfortunately, the day before my brother's birthday his friend was in a fatal motorcycle accident (as I understand it he was on the way to get something put on the bike so my brother could ride it with him). I was only about 13 at the time so I found most of this out secondhand, but I do remember a lot of the strange things that happened in the following years. My mother seems to think this was the big catalyst that plunged my brother into the church headfirst, he became extremely conservative and highly involved in the church stuff (even leading a homechurch). He also took on the belief that homosexuality was a sin, and although he didn't choose to be gay, he was going to be celibate for life.

We really didn't hear much from him for several years while he was involved in the church. I know my parents didn't outright denounce his beliefs, but of course he knew that they believed very differently and also that they didn't understand his choice at all. I'm sure he also knew they didn't approve of it, and thought he was being self-damaging (which I also felt). They would never have intentionally made him feel bad and I know they tried their best to be supportive and welcoming to him, but if it were me I know I'd be aware of their real feelings about such a choice, so I'm sure he was too. The church also seemed to encourage him to isolate himself from the un-saved members of his family (aka all of us).

Years later he had a 'crisis of faith', trying to reconcile his scientific knowledge with spiritual belief. Honestly I feel he might have just been ready to leave the church at that point, judging from the stories he later told me about the attitudes they had and the behavior of people in his homechurch, which was appalling. I don't think it was the first time he was faced with the issues he had with the difference between fundamentalist belief and the knowledge of science and history that he couldn't deny. He's still involved with the evangelical movement, though he frequently changes his mind about whether he believes or not, but he's doing his phd in religious studies and has been asked to speak about demonology at some historical society convention next year. So he's doing pretty well.

I guess in terms of my family, the best course probably WAS to just wait it out. Not to reject the belief outright, and maybe not to be too enthusiastic about supporting it either. Because even though we were kind of estranged for awhile, when he came out of that whole situation he knew that we were all there for him and loved him, and there was no real damage to the relationship.

[Mama Mia]

I don't have children but should I ever: college is non-negotiable. They will be going to an accredited 4 year school, live in the dorms and eat bad cafeteria food. It's a rite of passage.

I suppose it would help too to indoctrinate them from perhaps the teen years on. Something like..."look at the Duggers and the Maxwells, etc... do you want a life like that...stay home and do chores all day...no friends...no hobbies except a musical instrument that you may not have chosen?...no alone time...etc.

I have no problems with daughters getting married and staying home having kids. But any kid of mine is going to be strongly encouraged to get an education and a backup plan first.

No offense, but how is making a 4 year college degree non-negotiable any less controlling and micro-managing that what the Duggars and Maxwells do ?

Many, many people are not cut out for academics and do much better learning a trade or developing other skills.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

The interesting thing that I've noticed is that it is the kids who have strong philosophical and intellectual opinions at a really, really young age ( like 8) are often the most likely to do a 180 on whatever their beliefs are. But they are also ( in my experience ) the ones who will then swing back again. I think it is because they are deep thinkers, so are always looking for something that makes sense in their lives - instead of just going with the flow.

Gee, thanks. That's really reassuring. :lol:

[Feberin]

No offense, but how is making a 4 year college degree non-negotiable any less controlling and micro-managing that what the Duggars and Maxwells do ?

Many, many people are not cut out for academics and do much better learning a trade or developing other skills.

I agree that you can't force your children to attend college. I really hope my kids attend college and we have savings accounts for each of them for that purpose but at the same time it will ultimately be their choice. If college isn't for them I would rather they realize it and attend a trade school or get started working instead of failing out.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I sort of have a range within which I'd be happy with my kids' decisions...but ultimately they will make their own choices as adults.

I'd always want to keep the door open with my kids, ESPECIALLY if they are getting into a questionable marriage or doing something else that they are likely to regret. I don't want them to do something out of rebellion, and then find that they have no way out.

Love is unconditional, to me. It doesn't mean that they need to agree with my beliefs/decisions, or that I have to agree with theirs.

I'd like to think that I'm raising my kids to think critically, and to have a sense of snark and a sense of humor. I'd hope that even if they went on a different path, we could still debate and talk and joke around. A sense of humor, to a certain extent, separates fanatics from regular folks. It's also my style to shmooze and talk things out, instead of fighting or lecturing or dictating. Kids are on their own with their grandparents.

I wouldn't pretend to agree. I also wouldn't agree to do something that directly went against my own beliefs. For example, while I may attend the wedding, I wouldn't take an active role in planning a Josh-and-Anna style wedding for my daughter, esp. if she was very young. If she decided to do it on her own accord, fine, but her father would not be giving her away/transferring authority. In some cases, in lieu of paying for the wedding, I may let a child know that money has been set aside for them in a trust account.

I would not participate in any religious ceremony that went against my beliefs, although I would refrain from imposing my beliefs on grandchildren. I would respect religious restrictions.

If I ever see grandchildren being abused or neglected, my kids know that I will call the authorities. Hell, they see that I do that strangers. I consider abuse of the other parent to be abuse against the children (and so do the courts in my area).

[YPestis]

There's some good discussions here. I think I'd have to agree with everyone that this will depend on the level of fundie-ness of said child. I hope that my relationship with my child will be close enough that I could notice when they start going fundie.

While I disagree with many tenets of conservatism, I could accept it as another way to live to a large extent. If my child want to marry young, have a large family, homeschool and generally live traditional lives, I wouldn't object too much. Honestly, my only stipulation, and this is especially true for the girls, is that she must complete her education and BE PREPARED for a career to support herself and/or future family. This way, no matter what turns her life takes, she will always have something to "fall back" on. And again, this is especially important for the girls, as many fundie girls struggle to leave the lifestyle due to their lack of marketable skills.

However, if my child started taking the fringe fundie route, I'd start looking for underlying mental/external reasons for such a change. By fringe, I mean the type seen with the Maxwells and those crazy "pray the sickness away" fruitcases. When you go from mainstream to that type of lunacy, something gone horribly wrong in your life. As another posted noted, people may seek that type of fundie-ness as reaction to something frightening. That extreme paranoia probably didn't come from nowhere.

In general, my focus will be on maintaining good relations with the fundie child, while not enabling her by allowing her to be a SAHD. I would stress the importance of finishing up school and working while waiting for the Right Person. I can't control an adult child, and being stubborn about it will only alienate. However, I can keep that door open if he chooses to come back.

It's probably harder for me if I had a daughter turning fundie than a son. Men in fundie-land are expected to work and provide, hence they would more likely stay in school and have a career. For girls, they can get easily tied down with multiple children and little education. I would hope that whatever my child chooses, he/she will have the means to leave that lifestyle. And of course, I will be there to help them every step of the way.

[2xx1xy1JD]

No offense, but how is making a 4 year college degree non-negotiable any less controlling and micro-managing that what the Duggars and Maxwells do ?

Many, many people are not cut out for academics and do much better learning a trade or developing other skills.

We are talking to our kids about WHEN they go to university, not IF. Getting into a good program requires that they plan for it in high school and study hard.

At the same time, I never really understood the fixation on a 4 yr degree, as an end in itself. If my kids plan to be professionals, the 4 yr degree would simply be the first step in a longer academic career. I don't look at it as a "right of passage", but as training for a career. I hope that they have what it takes to be professionals. However, if that route was clearly not for them, we would look at a 4 yr university program that was oriented toward a career path (my sister did a degree with a co-op program that led to career, instead of just a 4 yr BA, which worked well with her learning disabilities). If that wasn't an option, we would look at community college or skilled trades, again looking toward a career path.

I live in a city with 3 good universities, so I wouldn't support going out of town unless it was for a specific program that wasn't available locally. I would, however, support a good "gap year" program, to gain independence and personal growth, and hopefully that would add a bit of maturity and focus when they start their studies.

[Jenny]

No offense, but how is making a 4 year college degree non-negotiable any less controlling and micro-managing that what the Duggars and Maxwells do ?

Unlike the Duggers and Maxwells who seem to control every aspect of their children's lives, I am seeking to give my children opportunities and experiences. I grew up in a rural, non-diverse area, college greatly expanded my worldview. I want my children to experience the same thing. If they truly hated it (or flunked out) after a semester or a year then we would reevaluate. College was the best four years of my life, how could I not want that to my children too? As a child it was expected of me that I would go to college, so is it unreasonable that I have the same expectations? At this point in my life (unmarried and childless) I am OK with the idea of being controlling in making my children go to college. Obviously, if I should ever have kids, reality may dictate that this position be rethought.

I live in a city with 3 good universities, so I wouldn't support going out of town unless it was for a specific program that wasn't available locally. I would, however, support a good "gap year" program, to gain independence and personal growth, and hopefully that would add a bit of maturity and focus when they start their studies.

I commuted once for a summer class and hated it. That is probably why I'm so big on the dorms. (or an apartment for later years).

[JenniferJuniper]

Unlike the Duggers and Maxwells who seem to control every aspect of their children's lives, I am seeking to give my children opportunities and experiences. I grew up in a rural, non-diverse area, college greatly expanded my worldview. I want my children to experience the same thing. If they truly hated it (or flunked out) after a semester or a year then we would reevaluate. College was the best four years of my life, how could I not want that to my children too? As a child it was expected of me that I would go to college, so is it unreasonable that I have the same expectations? At this point in my life (unmarried and childless) I am OK with the idea of being controlling in making my children go to college. Obviously, if I should ever have kids, reality may dictate that this position be rethought.

I commuted once for a summer class and hated it. That is probably why I'm so big on the dorms. (or an apartment for later years).

You should probably wait to meet your kids before making decisions about whether they should attend a four year university versus studying to be an electrician or a dental hygienist.

I was not expected to go to college. My mother wanted me to go to secretarial school so I would have something "to fall back on" if my future husband left me. So I put myself through university and law school, but I do thank my mother for my typing skills. They were most useful in school and I find them indispensable for posting.

I have three kids and I think two would do very well at university and would probably enjoy dorm life. (my son is only 11, so my mind could yet change with him). My oldest is another story. She's 18 and has been accepted at a four year school where she plans on living on campus. She wants to major in Communications so she can become a sports broadcaster. A sports broadcaster who focuses only on hockey. Mmmkay.

I really hope she does well in her studies and away from home, but knowing her as well as I do, I'm taking a wait and see attitude. It's mostly a maturity, emotional thing but academics are an issue as well. Her father and I are encouraging her, but we've both agreed that if she's not coping after the first semester, she's coming home to regroup and rethink her plans, and maybe attend a local community college for a year or two and plan for a more viable career. Personally, I'd prefer she did that this coming year but she wants to do what all of her friends are doing and we feel we should give her the opportunity.

University isn’t for everyone, neither are dorms. And just because we liked or disliked something doesn’t mean things will be the same for our kids. Children have the most annoying habit of turning out nothing at all like their parents!

[lorem ipsum]

Unlike the Duggers and Maxwells who seem to control every aspect of their children's lives, I am seeking to give my children opportunities and experiences.

*snip*

This.

Education is not about imposing limitations. It is about expanding choices. Education allows us to make informed decisions that will determine the path our lives will take instead of having our options automatically constrained. Education gives us power in our lives - ignorance does not.

This isn't to say that college is always the path for everyone (it isn't) or that even with higher education, there won't be times in life when you will be forced to make a choice you'd rather not (most of us probably will have to do this at some point). But education of any kind - whether it's college or a trade school - is never a bad thing.

[Rosa]

I have had friends go fundie, and I kind of treated them like people who are in domestic violence situations: be supportive of their selves (not their beliefs, but their selves - you have good judgement, you deserve good treatment, you are a smart person - abusers tear their victims down in exactly the way hell and brimstone fundie preachers & patriarchs do, so they don't feel able/deserving of leaving). And wait, and hope. And be prepared to help when they decide they want out.

[JesusFightClub]

Rosa put it much better than I could.

Not having kids, but if any of my (presently small) relatives turned fundie or did anything I disapproved of, I'd try to be like that - love their "selves", if possible gently talk them out of errors, if not help them when I could.

There's a couple of no-gos for me where I don't think I'd do as well as folk on this thread. Not to do with fundie-dom, although that would be very distressing, but:

A relative who scabbed (crossed a picket line). I don't mean someone who went into work because they were a member of another union (and weren't called out), not a union member (hey! can try to convince them) etc. I mean someone who is a union member, the union was called out and they went into work.

I don't have scabs for friends and I don't let them in my house or sit and talk with them like we're good pals. I did have two friends who were members of my union who crossed a picket line. Not any more.

I do not care to be friendly with these people, make excuses for why they crossed, or anything else. They can be bought and sold for the price of a day's pay, and I don't suppose any idea (loyalty to family or friends, respect for democratic decisions, respect for the union they belong to) has much of a hold on them when £ is in play. Therefore I don't trust them either.

Second is joining a fascist organisation. Enough said.

[BullyJBG]

I think I'd probably do what my parents did. If college or university wouldn't seem good for my young-adult-child, I would take them for some remedial courses; helping write a resume, and possibly some career counselling. So that they can use what God gave them. If they're turning "fundie" they need to respect their parents' decisions, right? Which would be, basically, to help them make their own decisions.

Good topic!

[dawbs]

I'd like to ensure this couldn't happen to my kid...

But I have to assume that the parents and/or grandparents of many of our fundies thought it couldn't happen to their kids.

I hope to teach critical thinking skills. I hope that her life is not so sheltered that she wants to flee from 'the world' when she gets out into it. I hope her mental health is such that she doesn't have issues.

All of that failing, I"m a firm believer in open doors. Not "of course you can, rent free, move back in with me while preparing your hope-chest" but in a "my life is always open to you, I love you no matter what-you are always welcome for dinner and in case of emergency". I'm also a big fan of controlling only what you can. "what's that? you want to live here under your daddy's headship? Huh. Well, as an adult, your rent will be $x per month and we will not be setting you up for courtship"

[Feberin]

Unlike the Duggers and Maxwells who seem to control every aspect of their children's lives, I am seeking to give my children opportunities and experiences. I grew up in a rural, non-diverse area, college greatly expanded my worldview. I want my children to experience the same thing. If they truly hated it (or flunked out) after a semester or a year then we would reevaluate. College was the best four years of my life, how could I not want that to my children too? As a child it was expected of me that I would go to college, so is it unreasonable that I have the same expectations? At this point in my life (unmarried and childless) I am OK with the idea of being controlling in making my children go to college. Obviously, if I should ever have kids, reality may dictate that this position be rethought.

It's great that you had such a wonderful experience at college. I also did and found that dorm living taught a lot of great lessons. I hope that my children will have similar experiences but since they will be adults at that point it will be their choice. It is limiting them if you require a degree. It's fine to encourage, plan for and support them attending a four year college but in the end it will have to be what they want because they will be in control of attending classes and doing their work. I also think failing out would really hurt a person's self esteem not to mention waste years that they could be working on their own career goals.

I commuted once for a summer class and hated it. That is probably why I'm so big on the dorms. (or an apartment for later years).

The reason for not sending your children away might be financial. While I agree dorms are a great experience they sure are an expensive one especially if you could live at home and pick from a number of great schools. I did both commuting and living on campus (my parents moved away my sophomore year) and while living on campus was more fun it sure costs a lot more then living at home!

[mypsychoticself]

I don't have kids, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think I'd follow my parents' example. Their rule is that if we aren't in school, we're expected to support ourselves monetarily. So if my daughter started becoming fundie, I'd recommend she either stay in school or get a job. No way am I putting up with the SAHD bullshit.

[beckerbuns]

I really don't see this happening with any of my kids because they've been raised to be critical thinkers and at this point two of the three say they're atheist and the other has Methodist grandparents on her dad's side and is only 6. I've always told my kids that they're free to make their own decisions regarding God and religion. I mean it. That's how I was raised. If my daughter grows up and becomes fundie, I'll deal. Given her already high level of critical thinking, I don't see it happening. She's so independent. So if she starts making those noises I'll probably try to talk her out of it but I'll respect her decision.

[Madge3]

In my senior year of high school I knew I didn't want to go to college. For me it was more of a "I have no idea what I want out of my life" thing more so than I didn't want an education. I knew I would have to pay for college entirely myself and thought it would be a horrible decision to go and either finish in a degree that I hated or drop out all together. I talked to my parents about it and they understood and were supportive but made it clear that I wasn't going to mooch off of them. I had no intentions of doing so. I stayed at home the summer after I graduated and worked and saved up money then that fall I moved out into my own apartment and continued to work. A few years later my then boyfriend (now husband) said he was moving 2 hours away to a larger city to go to a better college and wanted to know if I would move with him. I did and started the job I am at now and have worked my way up in the company. I hope to be able stay home soon with our 2 kids but that's because that's what *I* want and know that is not for everyone. I also know that if something happened to my husband I would have the skills to go back to work to support my family. I also know now that when my children are a little older I want to go to school to be a lactation consultant. I would have NEVER known I would have a passion for something like that at 18. So I am VERY glad my parents didn't force me to go right out of school. It really isn't for everyone. But no my kids won't be allowed to be freeloaders.

[GolightlyGrrl]

This would be my reaction if my (hypothetical) child turned fundie:

[Rosa]

JFC, I can't imagine if my child scabbed, he'd bother slinking back in the house. We're pretty open on God issues but labor issues - no way.

I mean, seriously, we went with a labor movement friend as his legal guardian, should something terrible befall us, over either of our siblings, largely on that kind of political issue - both our brothers are big-business wankers with no apparent morals and I wouldn't have him raised that way. Pagan, Catholic, atheist, whatever. But not anti-union, pro-sweatshop, or working in finance.

[kb2]

I don't have kids, but my parents are really good at backhanded comments when I do things they disapprove of as an adult. Like, when I was dating an older guy (when I was 18), they didn't say I shouldn't date him or that we should break up, but when I told them about him they said, "Oh, does he have to date someone younger because he is too immature for girls his own age?" And then I was like, "Maybe I'm mature for my age," and they said, "No, we think you have an average level of maturity." So I'm sure they wouldn't have straight-up told me my church was terrible, but would have gotten snarky about specific beliefs, especially if I were putting myself in a precarious financial situation. Sometimes people have to follow a path all the way to the bottom before they're ready to get themselves out of it though--older boyfriend turned out to be an enormous jerk, and was a jerk for a while before I broke up with him. I'm not sure there's an easy answer for what people could do or say to save someone from a cult other than being there for when they're ready to leave.

[dairyfreelife]

So, imagine you have an 18 year old daughter who heads off to college planning on doing Great Things. As she studies there, you notice a decidedly fundie turn in her thinking. You raised her with the idea that she can be whatever she wants to be. You think lawyer or engineer. Your daughter starts attending this conservative church off campus which tells her a woman's place is in the home. She comes home after her freshman year and tells you her new plan is to find a nice Christian husband and start having as many kids as "God will provide". In fact, she's contemplating quitting college altogether and wants your blessing. You realize she's turning fundie. What do you do?

I often wonder where the mainstream/liberal parents draw the line for their kids who decide to go conservative or fundie. Would you start objecting if your daughter announces her plans to drop out of college and start popping out kids? Or when your son says he wants a "full quiver"? Is it ok if your daughter says she doesn't really want to have a career? Or if your son says he would only consider a wife who can homeschool their children because public schools are too secular? At what point would you start worrying about your kids conservative tilt? What would you do if your kids adopts far more conservative/fundie values than you?

I think this is an interesting question to ponder because so many of the fundie families we follow started out as mainstream Christians and dived off the cliff in their young adulthood years. I wonder what their families thought as they watched their loved ones start wearing frumpers and pop out baby after baby. The Maxwells, Duggars, and Botkins all came from "normal" families. They attended public schools and colleges, and dated and watched movies. Now, look at them. If you had a child that was slowly turning towards fundie-dom. What would you do?

Not an option. Quitting school was not an option when I was growing up and it won't be an option for my children either. Unless you have an illness or disability that causes an inability to work or get a higher education (did one semester for me in college), you either worked or went to college as an adult. End of discussion. It is important to do their part in this world and contribute to society now that they are old enough and have completed their formal education. They cook meals when they are home. I worked and went to school and still managed to make food sometimes (just me so I did not always make meals since it was too much for one person. Frozen dinners are just better for a single person), do laundry and keep my home decent. There is not one reason for them to stay home and do laundry, make menus and meals, dust here and there, and do needlepoint when they can contribute to all the above while going to school and/or working.

Ftr, I don't care if their beliefs slightly differ or my daughters want to be SAHM one day. But it's vital my daughters know they are worth more than their body and their ability to clean a house and have children. They don't deserve to be treated as weaker and beneath their boyfriend/spouse. They are equal and beautiful and wonderful and don't deserve to be treated as anything less than ever. It's just as vital my sons know women are not here to serve them and are not only good for keeping house and popping out children. My sons should know that they are not weaklings who can't be around a woman without raping her and they are not weak if they don't do everything society or a religion says men should be or do. They don't have to do it. They don't have to take all the pressure on themselves for anything.

I would hate if any of my future children become fundie because I have been there and I know that it's a terrible and even dangerous path to take. I would hate it because I know I raised them better and to be logical and it would tell me that my children are searching for something and think those ideas will make their life, their marriage, their family, etc. better. But it won't and I know it.