What if your child turns fundie...

[YPestis]

So, imagine you have an 18 year old daughter who heads off to college planning on doing Great Things. As she studies there, you notice a decidedly fundie turn in her thinking. You raised her with the idea that she can be whatever she wants to be. You think lawyer or engineer. Your daughter starts attending this conservative church off campus which tells her a woman's place is in the home. She comes home after her freshman year and tells you her new plan is to find a nice Christian husband and start having as many kids as "God will provide". In fact, she's contemplating quitting college altogether and wants your blessing. You realize she's turning fundie. What do you do?

I often wonder where the mainstream/liberal parents draw the line for their kids who decide to go conservative or fundie. Would you start objecting if your daughter announces her plans to drop out of college and start popping out kids? Or when your son says he wants a "full quiver"? Is it ok if your daughter says she doesn't really want to have a career? Or if your son says he would only consider a wife who can homeschool their children because public schools are too secular? At what point would you start worrying about your kids conservative tilt? What would you do if your kids adopts far more conservative/fundie values than you?

I think this is an interesting question to ponder because so many of the fundie families we follow started out as mainstream Christians and dived off the cliff in their young adulthood years. I wonder what their families thought as they watched their loved ones start wearing frumpers and pop out baby after baby. The Maxwells, Duggars, and Botkins all came from "normal" families. They attended public schools and colleges, and dated and watched movies. Now, look at them. If you had a child that was slowly turning towards fundie-dom. What would you do?

[MajorMajor]

Ultimately I hope I am raising a critical thinker, and have a hard time picturing someone raised by a couple ultra liberal secular humanists/ atheists turning out fundie... But if it did happen, I guess ultimately I would have to bite my tongue unless I felt there were children in danger. My philosophy is that I want to raise my child to be free to choose his own path in life. I guess I would have to stand by that even if he chose a path that I am opposed to. It would be very very hard to keep my mouth shut but I would do my best.

[takers401]

I think that my response would depend on what type of fundie she was becoming. If she started turning more like an uber Catholic with NFP, head coverings, skirts mostly, SAHM, submissive wife I'd be okay with that although I'd definitely talk to her about the importance of a solid education as well as not sitting on a couch waiting for Mr. Right to come along. Because if you're not in college you're living on your own. If she started to turn more "pray for my sick baby instead of taking him/her to a doctor" then I'd probably do some serious interventions.

[salsa]

It would be hard, but I'd have to respect their decisions.

If I thought they were making the choice under duress, including mind-manipulation, I'd do my utmost to point out the flaws in the theory, but if their minds are made up, then there is nothing I can do.

[Effie]

Well, one of my first immediate reactions would be to call the emergency at the psychiatry, since I would fear she is going through a psychosis. I'm not saying that would be a good intervention. All I'm saying is that it seems so far away from normal/sane that my first reaction would be to question her sanity.

[TMS]

I don't have any daughters in college right now, but looking to the (near) future, there is no way I would allow my college-age daughter to drop out of college to live at home waiting around for Mr. Right. We would NOT support that - no freeloading in our family. Both my girls are intelligent, straight-A students right now who plan on having careers: one wants to be a doctor (OB/GYN) and the other wants to be an engineer. They work hard every day with their goals in mind, and have done so for years. I can't even imagine them giving all that up; I would be devastated. If they became fundie, my husband & I would still insist they finish college and find a job.

Now if they get married and decide to drop out, well then I guess there's not much we could do about it. But we would not support them to just sit around at home. No way. It would be very hard for me to zip my lip too.

[Arete]

What TMS said.

[GeoBQn]

I wonder if it would do any good to ask some probing questions to see if there was an underlying reason for the child's sudden interest in a completely different way of life. Finding that reason might lead to solutions that don't involve going fundie. While it didn't involve fundamentalism, I know people who have converted to different religions during a time where they had some underlying problem. Once that problem was resolved, the person went back to their original religion and it was like the conversion never happened.

[RachelB]

I don't have a child. But when my brother, for whom school was somewhat intermittent, announced that he and my now sister-in-law were engaged, my parents said, "We'll happily officiate at your wedding once you've finished college. Not before. You'll have better employment options with a degree in hand." (It worked. He finished, and he has a job that supports him and his family.)

If I had a child, I'd probably say something along those lines. As much as I'd want my hypothetical child to be happy, many people are still developing what they think and feel even after they've reached legal adulthood. And though it's not impossible to return to college if you realize you've made a mistake by dropping out, it's easier to finish without the responsibilities of marriage and parenthood.

That said, if she decided that my blessing was less important to her than her new-found principles, I wouldn't press the issue. But I wouldn't offer her rent-free housing until God dropped a spouse in her lap, nor would I go husband-hunting on her behalf. After all, if she transferred to an accredited Christian school or worked for a church-related institution, she would have a far better chance of meeting a like-minded potential spouse than she would living in my comparatively heathen household.

[Mama Mia]

I think I would try to be supportive, but would still give advice and offer suggestions.

If they were 18 ish probably the WORST thing I could do would be to try to push them to do what I wanted - that is young enough that their main reaction would be to push back, I think. And in my experience, young people that age tend to be very, very, very convinced that they are right about whatever their opinion is.

As a previous poster said, I wouldn't have a problem with them being a headcovering, skirts only, homeschooling, quiverfull mom - BUT - I would have a huge, huge problem if they were abusing my grandchildren !

Obviously you can't jump in and nitpick on all of your children's parenting decisions - but if they weren't seeking medical care, or were using pearl type physical abuse -- I don't know what I would do. It's so hard, because if you try to intervene it can make it worse or you can be shut out completely. I hope I would try to do something that respected their position as the parent and their beliefs while trying to protect my grandchild - like try to get my daughter to engage in the gentle Christian mother's sites, for example.

eta: With my grown kids now , I try not to jump in too much, but will put in my two cents more often than they would probably like - but I think I would be very, very careful if my child was in some sort of extremist lifestyle - as I would be very worried that they might cut off contact.

[lorem ipsum]

*snip*

After all, if she transferred to an accredited Christian school or worked for a church-related institution, she would have a far better chance of meeting a like-minded potential spouse than she would living in my comparatively heathen household.

This is probably the angle I'd try once I'd established they were 100% set on that path. I went to an accredited Christian university and there were LOTS of girls there aiming for their Mrs degrees, often with the ultimate goal of being SAHMs. (Many were studying teaching or nursing because they figured those would be the most handy when raising kids.)

So although I'd respect their decision to choose their own path in life (though there would be no chance of freeloading SAHDs!) I'd encourage an alternative for sure.

[JenniferJuniper]

It happened to a friend of mine. Her 18 year old son got involved with an extremely fundie church through some friends and ended up marrying a church member after a courtship, much to his parents' mainstream Catholic horror. But the real trouble started once they started having kids.

All of my friend's son's kids are girls, and they are usually dressed in frumpers, and never allowed to wear pants or shorts. The oldest two attend public school on a temporary basis because their mother is primary caretaker for her terminally ill mother and can't homeschool and take care of the little kids at the same time. Apparently there aren't any acceptable Christian schools close enough by. The girls are teased constantly at school for looking and acting so differently from the other kids. They are pulled out of anything involving music, dancing, Halloween, etc.

It's very hard for my friend. She lives out of state, but the older girls visit during school vacation. She has a swimming pool, and last summer her 9 year old granddaughter wanted to go swimming with her non-fundie cousins and some neighbors. She walked out in a modest wear swim dress that went past her knees and then burst into tears when she saw the others. She told her grandmother she felt "like a weirdo". My friend put her in a tank and some shorts so she could fit in with the others, but it's breaking the rules and she knows if she goes too far the kids will not be allowed to visit. All she can really do is show the girls by example that they will have choices when they grow up and hope they don't repeat too much when they get back home.

[Flossie]

One of my relatives has a similar situation going on right now. The girl she is helping her son to raise has had a fixation on a local bad boy since she was 14. They dated secretly off an on for years, with the girl sneaking off to spend time with him whenever they were in an 'on' phase. This 'bad boy' is about three years older and has a history of drug use, cheating on his girlfriends, voilent tendancies (although we're not sure if he's actually hit any women), and is very jealous and controlling. He was kicked out of several local schools for behavioral issues and now lives with relatives while trying to become a MMA star. He owns very little, depends on relatives to buy him what he wants and drive him around. He will occasionally get a part time job but has trouble keeping them for long.

Just after her 18th birthday he convinced the girl to leave her home and live with his family (he was in another state partying and joining MMA tournements). He made the girl hang around with either his sister or cousin at school and made her drop all her friends. She wouldn't talk to any of her relatives. Every morning she had to send him a picture of what she was going to wear and he'd tell her if it was acceptable or not. Soon she was practially dressing like a nun, kept her hair very plain and wore little makeup. He announced that when he next came to visit they were getting married and then she was going to drop out of school and start having his babies. He expected constant updates on what she was doing and who she was with, his family never left her alone and reported any infractions they saw or imagined.

When he came to town to claim her a few months later he said or did something that upset her so much she ran away and called a friend. She stayed with the friend for the weekend, but the friend's parents made it clear she couldn't live with them, and convinced her to go back home to her family. We're not sure what happened, but I think it has to do with the fact that the girl wasn't allowed to come collect her car. It wasn't in her name and the gas and insurance was being paid for by her own relatives, and they weren't about to hand it over to her. Since his Facebook page contained constant references to wanting a car, it's possible that he thought that his hot little girlfriend who had a lot of electronics and a car was going to be able to pick them up and he'd have a car. When he found out she couldn't take anything that wasn't actually given to her, one of the things he said that upset her was that he was going to kick her father's ass.

Unfortunately, he's back in town again and she's already been seen with him. She says it was a one-time thing, just 'closure', but it's worrisome. She's stopped dating and still claims that she's going to continue on to college when she graduates, but as long as he's around everyone is worried. She's got a job and is saving money, the worry is that after graduation she'll take her savings and run back to him. His plan has always been to take her out of state, both because of the better MMA opportunities out there and to keep her family away from her. He's said this and she seemed to think it was a sign of how much he loves her. She's even willing to overlook the fact that for a time he was living with one of his baby-mama's while still 'with' her. She still thinks he was just there to be with his child because baby mama insisted on working and not living on welfare.

Anyway, no religion, but all the other hallmarks of patriarchy, and I won't be surprised if this girl runs right back to it. She's spent the last four years believing that he's her one and only, and his behavior is because no one understands his tortured soul like she does. Once she convinces him of her love by being everything he wants her to be, he'll show the world his true wonderful self that until now only she has seen. He'll be a big MMA star, make tons of money, and she'll live in a nice house with tons of kids. When they're apart, she mimics the party line of college, career, any man but him, etc. But the second she gets the chance, she turns into the perfect submissive little lady ripe for abuse.

[Dinorah]

I'd be worried, obviously, but I'd try not to interfere unless I felt there was some actual danger involved (including hypothetical grandchildren getting a subpar education, I'd pressure them to do some decent homeschooling or do some myself more or less on the sly). I'd also try to give the sense that, even if I don't agree with the choices, I'd be always there for him/her. I think going all "you're not my child anymore" can wreak further havoc, causing the child to burrow even deeper and having the sense they can't change their mind.

One thing I'd insist on is on getting qualifications, especially for a girl. If I had a daughter who wanted to be a SAHD, I'd say "stay at home if you want, but study, and/or work. Don't feed me the "God will provide if something bad happens", haven't you heard of "God help those who help themselves?" And it's perfectly possible to perfect your housekeeping techniques while doing something else, if I want a maid I'll hire one." I wouldn't want my child at home doing little apart taking pictures of herself in skirts.

Anyway, I don't have any kids, might end up not having any, and I live in Europe, so this is highly of unlikely. If my child turned Catholic fundie I'd remind him/her of all the highly respectable Catholic schools and universities in the world and of all the Catholic intellectuals, so they couldn't really use that not to get an education.

[AVENues]

I have a theory and although I'm a bit scared to share it, I will. When people see the enormous amount of shit that happens in the world, the number of divorces, how some people are abused by their significant ones, their relatives, how people can't really trust anyone anymore, sometimes they get really desperate to find a little bit of security. This is how many people turn to religion. Fundiementalism projects the image of sheltered and pampered women, strong paterfamiliases, and a truckload of sweet, honest, lovable children in their parents' nests. Well, who in the world wouldn't want that?

My idea is, that maybe your child has seen too much shit that's going on in this world and she's looking for security. Fundiementalism cannot grant it, actually, nothing in the world won't grant you to have people around you that you can trust. If you are lucky, you'll find such people but not necessarily through religion, let alone extremism. You should carefully show the dark side of fundiementalism to her especially since she is a woman and as such, she would be subjected to ... all that shit. She cannot want to spend her life slaving away to a patriarchal dickwad and a litter of kids (did you mention the plumbing line thing to her?)

I can kind of imagine what your child is going through. Stay strong and wise and introducing her to the content of this forum would absolutely not hurt. Or some deep convo with a few fundiefugees here... I think Formargothardite would clear the air for her very quickly. :)

[Iokaste]

There is a classic philosophical dilemma that goes something like "Is your life good, when you think it is or when it is thought to be good by others?"

I think it's an interesting idea to have in the back of your mind, when discussing this kind of issues. Would I want to have a million babies? No. Does it actually seem like some of the women we "know" are happy and fulfilled in their way of lie? Yes (to me at least).

My biggest issue with fundie families is their über-controlling ways and micro-managing their kids lives way into adulthood in some cases.

While I think we all raise our children in the way we think is right (or, I hope we do, it would be odd to teach your kid something you didn't think was "right"), at some point we have to accept that they are their own person and that there will be other influences in their life besides their parents and their upbringing.

I'm not advocating an "anything-goes"-attitude, but a respectful disagreement is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Feberin]

I wouldn't let her drop out to be a SAHD in my house. However if she did get married and dropped out then I would try to stay on good terms so that I could be a part of my dozen or so grandkids' lives.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I dont do SAHD's. Any adult kid of mine staying in my home will have to either be furthering their education or working. If any of my future kids wanted to drop out of college and stay at home doing nothing, the answer eould be no.

I wouldnt choose a partner for my kid, they would have to do it themselves, although if they asked my opinion I would give it.

I wouldnt hesitate to call CPS on my own kid if they were abusing their child. I would encourage them to use other forms of discipline though first, only reporting them as a last resort.

I would be fine with my future kids having large families-Im from one, I love the idea of having a whole bunch of kids, so maybe at least one kid might want to as well.

I intend to teach my future kids critical thinking, and how to avoid abusive relationships, and they will likely have two moms, so I cant see someone like me raising a fundie.

[August]

For a start I'd have to get over my freak out over them becoming religious. But I think becoming fundy is no different than any other other bad life choice, like addiction or dropping out of life. I'd disapprove as much as I could without getting cut off. I'd write a will that provided for the support of their children but not letting the cult fritter the assets away.

I don't believe in a lifelong rat race, I'll always be here as a place to stay or assistance in big financial issues, or a lull between careers. I'd counsel any daughter planning on staying at home with her kids to think about her exit strategy, but if they end up with six or more kids they become unemployable anyway. Even just afterschool care would wipe out her wages.

I am already brainwashing my children that babies need to be fed when they're hungry and people who don't are mean. So hopefully they won't feel freaked out and out of control when they have their own kids.

[Terrasola]

DH and I have been living a variation of the scenario Flossie describes with our daughter for the past 11 years: patriarchy without religion. I could fill posts and posts and pages and pages with the things that have occurred but I'll boil it down to what we've learned:

* You cannot live someone else's life for them, even when you know that they are taking a dark and dangerous path. You have a right to respectfully express your opinion, state facts and non-judgementally provide advice. Others have the right not to listen.

* Young adults are stubborn and think they know it all. They often won't listen to anyone else. Remember how we were at that age (yikes!).

* Young adults think they are 10 feet tall and bullet-proof. They think that nothing bad will happen to them, and when it does they are often too embarrassed to ask for help (they fear the "I told you so's") and often don't know how dig themselves out of the situation they got themselves into. Pride is a powerful thing. The only antidote I've found is to keep the lines of communication open "just in case".

* Love truly is blind (and deaf and mute). You truly have to accept that your kid loves who (s)he loves, although it is acceptable to keep lines of communication open regarding domestic voilence. Obtaining professional advice about how to effectively do so is advisable. This may or may not work; you do not control the outcome.

* You have a right to live your principles, morals and values, especially in your own home and with your own pocketbook. You do not have a right to impose these principles, morals and values on another adult or to attempt to control another adult. However, you can lovingly let them go to live their own lives free of your interference or enabling (including financial enabling).

* You do not have to accept emotional blackmail (especially where grandchildren are involved). You do not have to be an enabler. You may choose to seek professional advice to learn about enabling behaviour.

* You do not control others. You can only control yourself. You cannot control outcomes / results. Sometimes there are no happy endings.

* There is a way to find peace in the chaos and unhappiness. It is a path unique to everyone.

My heart goes out to everyone in this situation.

[hoipolloi]

DH and I have been living a variation of the scenario Flossie describes with our daughter for the past 11 years: patriarchy without religion. I could fill posts and posts and pages and pages with the things that have occurred but I'll boil it down to what we've learned:

* You cannot live someone else's life for them, even when you know that they are taking a dark and dangerous path. You have a right to respectfully express your opinion, state facts and non-judgementally provide advice. Others have the right not to listen.

* Young adults are stubborn and think they know it all. They often won't listen to anyone else. Remember how we were at that age (yikes!).

* Young adults think they are 10 feet tall and bullet-proof. They think that nothing bad will happen to them, and when it does they are often too embarrassed to ask for help (they fear the "I told you so's") and often don't know how dig themselves out of the situation they got themselves into. Pride is a powerful thing. The only antidote I've found is to keep the lines of communication open "just in case".

* Love truly is blind (and deaf and mute). You truly have to accept that your kid loves who (s)he loves, although it is acceptable to keep lines of communication open regarding domestic voilence. Obtaining professional advice about how to effectively do so is advisable. This may or may not work; you do not control the outcome.

* You have a right to live your principles, morals and values, especially in your own home and with your own pocketbook. You do not have a right to impose these principles, morals and values on another adult or to attempt to control another adult. However, you can lovingly let them go to live their own lives free of your interference or enabling (including financial enabling).

* You do not have to accept emotional blackmail (especially where grandchildren are involved). You do not have to be an enabler. You may choose to seek professional advice to learn about enabling behaviour.

* You do not control others. You can only control yourself. You cannot control outcomes / results. Sometimes there are no happy endings.

* There is a way to find peace in the chaos and unhappiness. It is a path unique to everyone.

My heart goes out to everyone in this situation.

So well said, and I agree with all of it.

It would crush me to have our son & DIL suddenly reject all we stand for & turn fundie (which doesn't seem very likely) but an equally devastating blow now would come from our grandchild being put under such a regime.

You have to wonder if there were some triggering event that pushed the Maxwells et al. over the edge from conservative or even mainstream Christianity into fundie world. Then, there are the cases like Meredith's Stephen - raised UU, with two professional parents, normal high school (with girlfriend/s), matriculates at Princeton, then -- bammo! -- turns fundie.

[LeatherCouch]

The first thing I would do is encourage them to speak to a mental health professional. It would be so out of character that I would immediately worry there was an underlying medical issue.

[formergothardite]

I wouldn't let her drop out to be a SAHD in my house. However if she did get married and dropped out then I would try to stay on good terms so that I could be a part of my dozen or so grandkids' lives.

Exactly. No sitting at home being Miss Raquel in my house. But if she got married, started wearing frumpers, and became very religious I would explain why I didn't agree with that if she asked, but she is an adult and free to live her own life. Now if she was putting her kids in danger or became like Emily or Kelly or the Shraders, I would look into some sort of intervention.

[Jinger Jar]

I can only control myself and how I choose to react to her life choices. With this in mind I would explain that she can't live as a SAHD in our house. If she chooses to marry and create a megafamily, she and her husband must be diligent of their finances as well as their physical and emotional energy levels. I will not be providing her with credit cards (a la Abigail from Abigail's Alcove), not will I morph into an unpaid laundress, child minder, or housekeeper.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

The first thing I would do is encourage them to speak to a mental health professional. It would be so out of character that I would immediately worry there was an underlying medical issue.

Seriously. My daughter is just going on 8, but she's already such a little feminist. She sees the examples of the strong women in her life, and she gets really riled up when we're talking about history, e.g. when I explained the fight for women's suffrage when I was telling why it's so important to be informed and to exercise your right to vote last November.

I just can't even fathom her turning fundie, but then I guess there are plenty of parents who thought it would never happen with their own children until it did. Like most here, there'd be no SAHD bullshit of any kind, but I'd bite my lip as much as need be to maintain a relationship.