Couple's Baby Taken By Police

[ShesCrafty]

Okay, I finally read the article. I have worked with that particular ethnic group in that area. Some are great, but many still hang on to being corrupt as they learned in Russia and the Ukraine. They also exaggerate a lot, especially believing that all governments are corrupt. When a middle schooler was caught doing anything, it was always denied by them, and they exaggerated their treatment. On the other hand, if you locked your keys in your car there was always a student who could pop your door for you.

Good fucking Lord, I cannot believe a teacher just typed those words. With role models like you, I'm sure they'll grow up to be fine, upstanding citizens. And don't bother to accuse me of teacher bashing, I'm an educator myself and defend against teacher bashing when I see it on this forum, as my posts will show. You appear to be of the 1% that give the other 99% of teachers a bad name. The bigotry you show towards Russians and Ukrainians is awful. The opinion you hold of your students of that ethnicity in inexcusable.

[Wolfie]

Good fucking Lord, I cannot believe a teacher just typed those words. With role models like you, I'm sure they'll grow up to be fine, upstanding citizens. And don't bother to accuse me of teacher bashing, I'm an educator myself and defend against teacher bashing when I see it on this forum, as my posts will show. You appear to be of the 1% that give the other 99% of teachers a bad name. The bigotry you show towards Russians and Ukrainians is awful. The opinion you hold of your students of that ethnicity in inexcusable.

Seriously. Look stuff up. That particular community runs car theft rings. That particular community has killed people in parks because they were gay/not white. I never said that they all were like that but a large number were. It was one of the things we had to deal with. We also had to deal with the fundie ones in our schools telling the other students that they were evil for dancing in music class or celebrating Halloween. I have nothing against Russians in General, and I am part Russian myself, but there is a particular community who has some issues in that area and we were trying hard to teach the kids that crime and a fear of the government were not needed, but when it is what they see at home, we can only do so much.

Have you worked with that particular community in the Sacramento area? What are your impressions?

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I have zero tolerance for the whole "CPS is out to get me" movement. If you're worried about CPS, then perhaps you should take a step back and question why that is. I'd welcome an investigator into my home at any time. I know there is no abuse or neglect taking place, I'm not a dangerous hoarder, and there is always food, and while my house may not always be the cleanest, it's not filthy nor are we infested with vermin. That's about all you have to do to keep your kid.

People like our little trolly troll need to realize that people LIE. One of my closest friends has worked for DCFS for years, and that's one of her biggest hurdles with parents. They lie, lie, lie. And they can't face reality. They don't think what they are doing is wrong. You think people on the internet are going to admit that they were addicted to meth, had a sex offender shacking up with them, are a hoarder to the point where their house is unsafe, or so filthy that their home isn't fit for human habitation? You think they're going to admit they leave a 2 year-old at home alone all night while they're out hunting for a fix or turning tricks? Or talk about that time the social worker removed the leather straps that hang on the wall? No, no they are not. They're going to cry persecution, just like our dear fundies, and tell anyone and everyone that mean old CPS is out to get them, and you.

That's not to say that mistakes don't happen. But they are by far the exception, not the norm.

[DrWhat]

I am not saying citizens could ever win against the government in an all-out battle of weaponry power.

The American people were a-okay with the idea, "US government relocates Japanese-American families to protect American citizens."

I think they would have put the kibosh on "US government rounds up and nukes Japanese-Americans to protect citizens."

Government abuse of power begins more insidiously than that, which history has shown repeatedly, but I certainly do not see that happening today like many fundies say.

Oh for goodness sake I am never going to come out of making that comment without sounding like a right-wing nut job because it arouses many assumptions. I apologize for sowing that seed so carelessly. In conclusion, CPS is good. I hate guns and don't see any reason for civilians to have one or stockpile them out of fear of a Hitler regime. Finally, people in service professions and the government are trying their best to protect people. Mistakes made by these generally good services do not warrant revolution, but that doesn't mean that such circumstances that DO warrant revolution could never exist.

[ShesCrafty]

Seriously. Look stuff up. That particular community runs car theft rings. That particular community has killed people in parks because they were gay/not white. I never said that they all were like that but a large number were. It was one of the things we had to deal with. We also had to deal with the fundie ones in our schools telling the other students that they were evil for dancing in music class or celebrating Halloween. I have nothing against Russians in General, and I am part Russian myself, but there is a particular community who has some issues in that area and we were trying hard to teach the kids that crime and a fear of the government were not needed, but when it is what they see at home, we can only do so much.

Have you worked with that particular community in the Sacramento area? What are your impressions?

Yeah, I have worked with that community in the Sacramento area. As a social worker. For DDS. Which means I worked for the government. And the Russian and Ukranian foster parents I worked with were nothing but polite and respectful to me, even though I was a corrupt government employee. I don't deny that there are Russian gangs and criminals in Sac, there are. My problem with your previous post is that you made it sound that since some Russians and Ukrainians are criminals, anyone of that background (such as these parents) are suspect. And this particular community most certainly does not run car theft rings and kill gay people; members of that community may do those things but not the community as a whole does not.

But hey, good news, if you lock your keys in your car and are lucky enough to work in a middle school, just look on the roster and start pulling the kids with the Russian sounding names out of class. One of them will be able jimmy your lock open for you.

ETA to make my point clearer.

[Wolfie]

Yeah, I have worked with that community in the Sacramento area. As a social worker. For DDS. Which means I worked for the government. And the Russian and Ukranian foster parents I worked with were nothing but polite and respectful to me, even though I was a corrupt government employee. I don't deny that there are Russian gangs and criminals in Sac, there are. My problem with your previous post is that you made it sound that since some Russians and Ukrainians are criminals, anyone of that background (such as these parents) are suspect, even though you tried to qualify it with with the whole ''Some are great, but many still hang on to being corrupt as they learned in Russia and the Ukraine." This community on Sacramento is like all others. Most are good people with a few rotten apples in the bunch. And hey, if you lock your keys in your car and are lucky enough to work in a middle school, just look on the roster and start pulling the kids with the Russian sounding names out of class. One of them will be able jimmy your lock open for you.

I think that you wanted to be offended. Your post shows that. Big difference between somebody who is from a specific group of people and "kid with a Russian sounding name."

And I strongly suspect that the ones who became foster parents aren't the same as the ones I mentioned here. You have to have some trust of government to let it invade your life the way that it will as a foster parent. The article specifically mentioned that the parents had not been born in the US, and the way that the father describes it, it sounds very much like a person who does not trust the government and was fighting them.

I bet you would have known my dad, but I am not mentioning names because you've decided I'm a racist bitch.

What us your opinion about this child being taken?

[ShesCrafty]

I think that you wanted to be offended. Your post shows that. Big difference between somebody who is from a specific group of people and "kid with a Russian sounding name."

And I strongly suspect that the ones who became foster parents aren't the same as the ones I mentioned here. You have to have some trust of government to let it invade your life the way that it will as a foster parent. The article specifically mentioned that the parents had not been born in the US, and the way that the father describes it, it sounds very much like a person who does not trust the government and was fighting them.

I bet you would have known my dad, but I am not mentioning names because you've decided I'm a racist bitch.

What us your opinion about this child being taken?

I actually don't spend my day looking to be offended. I just happen to have that reaction when I see bigotry.

Perhaps you are talking about a particular gang when you say:

That particular community runs car theft rings. That particular community has killed people in parks because they were gay/not white. I never said that they all were like that but a large number were.

Or maybe you are talking about a particular family or families with a history of criminal activity when you write:

When a middle schooler was caught doing anything, it was always denied by them, and they exaggerated their treatment. On the other hand, if you locked your keys in your car there was always a student who could pop your door for you.

However, when you write "community", I take that to mean, you know, the community. Not a gang.

When you write "them" when referring to middle schoolers of this ethnicity, I take that to mean all of them, not the individual student that Wolfie happens to be thinking about in her head.

And no, I don't think you're a racist bitch. I think you're a bigot towards people who were born in Russia and the surrounding countries and now reside in the Sacramento area.

As for this particular case, as I stated previously, I don't know enough information to form an opinion. It's entirely possible that "the way that the father describes it, it sounds very much like a person who does not trust the government and was fighting them." If that's the case, it's because he was an idiot who was fighting them and does not trust the government. It's not because he was born in Russia.

[Wolfie]

If you were born in a country with a corrupt government that you could not trust, how easy would it be to trust the government in a new country?

I worked in an area where the vast majority of my students' families were involved in the Ukranian and Russian crime underground. The way these parents described how their child was taken totally reminded me of them.

And nope, not a bigot, I wanted better than a life in crime for these kids and what we saw could be heartbreaking.

[ShesCrafty]

If you were born in a country with a corrupt government that you could not trust, how easy would it be to trust the government in a new country?

I worked in an area where the vast majority of my students' families were involved in the Ukranian and Russian crime underground. The way these parents described how their child was taken totally reminded me of them.

And nope, not a bigot, I wanted better than a life in crime for these kids and what we saw could be heartbreaking.

I don't know personally, as I was born and raised in Cali. However, of all the people I have met who were immigrants born in a country with corrupt governments (and that's quite a few), I can't think of a single one who was overly distrustful of the government as you seem to be implying. And I could tell when you joked that they could jimmy your car lock for you that you were really just heartbroken and wanted more for these kids than a life of crime.

I certainly cannot argue against you when you say that "the vast majority of my students' families were involved in the Ukranian and Russian crime underground." I don't know your personal situation, perhaps they were. However, why you think that just because you were unfortunate enough to work in an area crawling with Russian gangs means that the word of a man you read about in a newspaper is suspect simply because he is of that ethnicity is...strange.

[gustava]

I did not realize that the Blaze was founded by Glenn Beck. If so I never would have posted the story. Anything published by a source affiliated with Glenn Beck cannot be taken seriously. I blame my lack of checking where my information is from on it being the last week of my graduate career before finals. My capstone project was due last week, I defend tomorrow, I'm studying for finals, doing graduate assistant work, and looking for jobs. So I didn't really think to take the time to check the source. My apologies. We've been discussing a story posted by a lunatic. Please don't judge me based on this story. I don't take Glenn Beck seriously and have never read Blaze before this.

It happens. Don't fret.

[Mama Mia]

Okay, I finally read the article. I have worked with that particular ethnic group in that area. Some are great, but many still hang on to being corrupt as they learned in Russia and the Ukraine. They also exaggerate a lot, especially believing that all governments are corrupt. When a middle schooler was caught doing anything, it was always denied by them, and they exaggerated their treatment. On the other hand, if you locked your keys in your car there was always a student who could pop your door for you.

Wow. This explains it. I looked at the original article briefly --- I was expecting a photo of a family that were either very young and/or obviously a minority. Because in my experience, that is who the medical establishment and CPS will target for investigation - everything else being equal.

I was very surprised that the parents appeared to be late twenties/thirties and white.

But I guess they are a specific ethnic minority in their area - so that explains it.

Good thing people like you are around to make sure that the proper people are investigated so thoroughly :roll:

eta: I know CPS and Doctors and other professionals also become involved with middle class white families, but I think anyone with any experience in these systems will acknowledge that minority groups and the poor and the young are disproportionately represented - and not always due to factors that can be blamed on poverty or immaturity itself.

[Katiebug]

They didn't just take the baby out of the hospital AMA. Like a pp said, they took him from ICU and walked without discharging after being told he needed heart surgery ASAP. Further, their "second opinion" was from an ER doctor who is wildly unqualified to diagnose a pediatric cardiology issue.

Clearly the parents don't understand the depth of the problem because they seem to think that the hospital wanted to operate because of a heart murmur, which is not even a diagnosis. A baby in congestive heart failure can go from looking fine to being dead in short order. The good news is the baby is at one of the best cardiac hospitals in the country and he will get whatever treatment is necessary.

I think a little more sensitivity and perhaps providing a translator may have helped avoid the entire situation. The parents' names are Russian and the quotes from the mother indicate that English is not her first language. It may not be a matter of willful misunderstanding on the parents' part; confusion and language/cultural differences could have contributed to them thinking their child's heart condition was minor rather than a major problem requiring surgery.

From the parents' perspective, I'd be ripped as hell if my baby was in the ICU and a nurse was pushing IV meds and couldn't or wouldn't explain why. I'd have the charge nurse, the pediatrician, and the hospital's patient advocate in there so fast the nurse's head would spin, and yes - I would question very vocally whether that hospital was the most appropriate place for my child.

As for DCF in general, while I'm sure there are plenty of good people working for those agencies, in our state they've fouled up often enough that I would be pretty frightened if our family had to tangle with them!

[Lulu]

It doesn't sit right with me. If the hospital/CPS thought there was a genuine need for the child to be removed why not do it in a kinder way. Why not escort the parents and child to the hospital so things could be sorted out. Allow the parents to have representation. English does not sound like their first language so that could account for some of the problem. As does questioning authority of drs, not many drs like you questioning them :naughty: and in my experience hospitals are quick to deny any wrong doings.

[theologygeek]

I actually do think that citizens should be armed to protect themselves from the government (within reason and with proper gun control laws, of course). This doesn't mean that we should shoot every government employee with whom we disagree. We just need to be able to defend ourselves if any sort of oppressive regime should become immediately threatening. I would draw the line as systematic destruction of the property of a certain group of people or forced relocation of any kind.

What oppressive regime are you going to find in the United States? Give a scenario where it is okay to shoot a government employee.

[Trynn]

Please tell me this thread only SEEMS super odd and confusing because I'm recovering from surgery on serious pain meds?

[bananacat]

I think the reason CPS acts the way they do now is there aren't enough babies in the foster care system. People who seek adoption aren't commonly looking for teenagers or pre-teens. I have read on this. The fact they can just remove a toddler from a loving home with no records and let someone get away with beating or praying over ill children with previous records makes sense in that perspective. I really don't have an explanation for their actions at times. I agree their definition neglect needs to be revaluated.

I'm highly suspicious of this story. I'm sure there's much more to it than the parents allege. They are probably misunderstanding a lot of what happened, and also probably hiding some things.

As for the infant thing, I'm highly doubtful. This isn't how parents adopt infants. When any child goes into foster care, they aren't ready for adoption right away. It usually takes years before parental rights are terminated. Adopting out the infant is rarely the first resort.

The more coercive practice is done by Crisis Pregnancy Centers that coerce birth mothers to sign away their rights.

[Maggie Mae]

So The Blaze is now credible journalism? LOL. That was my first thought on the OP. Then I skimmed through the rest of this thread and I'm confused now.

Personally, I think CPS needs some oversight. I think the same thing about Police and Congress and Judges and anyone else with a tiny bit of power. (For the record, my dad was a Police officer.) I greatly respect the work that they do, but I think something has changed somewhere along the line and common sense has been lost.

I, of course, only have anecdotal evidence. I do not think that it's okay to remove children from their homes and put in foster care to be abused just because the CPS officer who is assigned happens to disagree with parenting choice. If a child is being neglected or physically abused, yes, the child needs to be removed if the danger is immediate. I wish we could fully staff CPS departments (and police, and fire) so that CPS officers never had to make a decision about child removal on their own. I wish we could have 2-3 police at every call, for their own safety and the safety of the victim/perp. But we live in a world where public safety is less important than lower taxes and education is the first thing to take a hit.

[VaSportsMom]

Please tell me this thread only SEEMS super odd and confusing because I'm recovering from surgery on serious pain meds?

Nope, it is really strange. Between the trolls and other members calling foul on each other I'm pretty lost.

I hope the surgery minor and your recovery is quick and easy.

[2xx1xy1JD]

So The Blaze is now credible journalism? LOL. That was my first thought on the OP. Then I skimmed through the rest of this thread and I'm confused now.

Personally, I think CPS needs some oversight. I think the same thing about Police and Congress and Judges and anyone else with a tiny bit of power. (For the record, my dad was a Police officer.) I greatly respect the work that they do, but I think something has changed somewhere along the line and common sense has been lost.

I, of course, only have anecdotal evidence. I do not think that it's okay to remove children from their homes and put in foster care to be abused just because the CPS officer who is assigned happens to disagree with parenting choice. If a child is being neglected or physically abused, yes, the child needs to be removed if the danger is immediate. I wish we could fully staff CPS departments (and police, and fire) so that CPS officers never had to make a decision about child removal on their own. I wish we could have 2-3 police at every call, for their own safety and the safety of the victim/perp. But we live in a world where public safety is less important than lower taxes and education is the first thing to take a hit.

There IS oversight. California law requires the case to go before a judge within 2 business days, which is exactly what happened here. Baby went to a good hospital, parents were ordered to refrain from removing child from hospital without a proper discharge, CPS dropped their request to keep the child in foster care, and are now just responsible for supervising the case and making sure that the parents are cooperating with medical treatment.

The nature of CPS work is such that sometimes, decisions need to be made on the spot.

[longskirtlotsakids]

Another thing to be aware of is that foster homes are not guaranteed to be very nice. Most have their own issues, and kids are more likely to be abused in foster care than the overall poulation.(Most often by other foster children)

[FearLyss]

If a two year old was founding wandering a busy highway, CPS sure as hell better be investigating.

Do you think people want to be social workers so they can rip families apart?

This particular case is terrifying and seems to show CPS overstepping their boundaries, but I doubt the media has the whole story. I do think social services should investigate if a parent is denying medical treatment for their child or a doctor suspects that's the case.

This. I am a case manager for individuals with intellectual discabilities. I could not imagine having to work with abused/ neglected children. My heart goes out to those in that position.

CPS (or DHS in my state) does not have the ability to analyze everything before making a decision, these cases are time-sensitive. There are, sadly, many kids who are overlooked in the system. I would prefer a child to be removed and then returned after an investigation vs. a child dying for not receiving the medical help they need. This case is sad, and I understand why the parents should be reunited with their child, but I would prefer to see this more often then the alternative. CPS has to make very important decisions based on what is often, not enough information.

Shooting a social worker in order to prevent them from taking your child, is one the most absurd things I have ever read. That is seriously fucked up and if that is a typical thought of yours, I would urge you to seek counseling.

[PokaDot]

So yahoo has picked this up now and made it seem like they took the kid from an appointment. I still think the parents aren't telling the whole truth. Even people on my FB feed are saying how it's terrible seeking a second opinion means the state can take your baby and that it's not neglect to not get treatment for a medical condition *rolleyes*.

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/nikola ... 00121.html (not breaking because it's yahoo).

The nightmare began on April 23 when parents Anna and Alex Nikolayev brought their baby Sammy to the Sutter Memorial Hospital. Trips to the doctor are a regular event for the family because Sammy has a heart murmur and needs to be checked frequently. On this visit, he was exhibiting flu-like symptoms.

Anna says she became concerned when she witnessed a nurse administering antibiotics, something another doctor had advised against. Then, a physician told them the baby needed open heart surgery as soon as possible. The couple put their son into his stroller and brought him directly to another hospital to obtain a second opinion, without receiving an official discharge. Doctors at Kaiser Parmanente Medical Center told them it was safe to return home with Sammy.

[Marianne]

I still think the parents aren't telling the whole truth. .

[RandomTrivia]

So yahoo has picked this up now and made it seem like they took the kid from an appointment. I still think the parents aren't telling the whole truth. Even people on my FB feed are saying how it's terrible seeking a second opinion means the state can take your baby and that it's not neglect to not get treatment for a medical condition *rolleyes*.

It's on MSN.com now, and apparently on the TODAY show as well.

http://www.today.com/health/parents-police-removed-our-child-after-we-sought-second-medical-6C9708419

The MSN version leaves out the antibiotics/injection part, and does mention they left without an official discharge, but generally makes it seem like the issue was the parents wanting a second opinion.

[Mama Mia]

So yahoo has picked this up now and made it seem like they took the kid from an appointment. I still think the parents aren't telling the whole truth. Even people on my FB feed are saying how it's terrible seeking a second opinion means the state can take your baby and that it's not neglect to not get treatment for a medical condition *rolleyes*.

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/nikola ... 00121.html (not breaking because it's yahoo).

Right, because obviously CPS and the Doctors are always right, and don't just fuck up sometimes. So obviously it MUST be the parents who aren't being upfront. How does that even make sense ?

And if I was in this situation I would go to the media in order to make sure that everything was resolved quickly and my kid wasn't put into foster care for 6 months while things dragged out . I would only do that if I was sure I was right - because media attention brings increased scrutiny, and if I was the one who was neglecting the kid, increased scrutiny means they would be slower to return the child.