How to fit as many children as possible into a bedroom

[Katiebug]

I was really sickened to read her babies were trained to sleep through the night BY three months of age. And that even as newborns they got four scheduled feedings per day (none at night). And then she repeatedly criticizes those who feed on demand because we allow our babies to snack instead of eat real meals. Knowing how tiny their stomachs are and how often they truly need to nurse/feed, this really depressed me last night. Four feeds a day, scheduled cuddling times because babies are manipulative and will want more, no crying allowed, left alone all night. That's disgusting.

That's just horrifying and downright cruel. That's what those awful Pearls advocate, right? A nursing baby will only take what she needs to fill her tummy right then; when our daughter was a newborn she nursed 10+ times a day some days and I distinctly recall being thrilled when she started sleeping for a whopping 4 hour stretch at night.

[Tanaqui]

I was really sickened to read her babies were trained to sleep through the night BY three months of age. And that even as newborns they got four scheduled feedings per day (none at night). And then she repeatedly criticizes those who feed on demand because we allow our babies to snack instead of eat real meals. Knowing how tiny their stomachs are and how often they truly need to nurse/feed, this really depressed me last night. Four feeds a day, scheduled cuddling times because babies are manipulative and will want more, no crying allowed, left alone all night. That's disgusting.

How does that even work? Are they just left to scream until they give up? I can't imagine my wee heathen taking that quietly.

[dawbs]

How does that even work? Are they just left to scream until they give up? I can't imagine my wee heathen taking that quietly.

Babywise bullshit.

largefamiliesonpurpose.com/2011/02/large-family-organization-scheduling.html

She CLAIMS it's not CIO in her post on the subject. (I do actually believe there are kids who sleep through the night naturally at 3 months. There are kids who adapt to the Enzo schedule/regimented crap. And then there are the rest of the babies in the world)

I’ve never seen or heard of any baby who’s not able to learn this. *smile*

^bull. shit.

People whose babies don't "learn" it are told that they're doing it wrong.

People whose babies don't "learn" it lie and say the kid did so that sanctimonious twits quit telling them they're doing it wrong.

[Rosa]

Marianne you got all the words right - "foster" is the word we use for those families.

Quoting myself because I realise I was wrong: the 14-year-old doesn't need somewhere to do her schoolwork because she doesn't *do* any school work. Check out her schedule: www .largefamiliesonpurpose.com/2012/10/fall-schedule-2012.html

You're right, Alba. That's disgusting. I've heard oldest daughters say they never got to their homework because they'd run out of time, but I've never seen a family that openly planned it that way. wtf? Do her readers not notice this?

[Loveday]

Marianne you got all the words right - "foster" is the word we use for those families.

You're right, Alba. That's disgusting. I've heard oldest daughters say they never got to their homework because they'd run out of time, but I've never seen a family that openly planned it that way. wtf? Do her readers not notice this?

According to how I'm reading this bizarrely regimented schedule, the two oldest girls do have school work until around noon, including a little math early in the morning while they alternate showers, and violin practice at 11:30. Then they have time (supposedly) for finishing up any schoolwork they didn't get to in the morning, between 2 and 3:30. The way the schedule is formatted makes it look like the oldest does almost no schooling at all, but I think that time block is combined with her sister's. They certainly don't seem to have any free time to just read, hang out, or do anything else young teens like to do, though. :?

[alba]

Babywise bullshit.

largefamiliesonpurpose.com/2011/02/large-family-organization-scheduling.html

She CLAIMS it's not CIO in her post on the subject. (I do actually believe there are kids who sleep through the night naturally at 3 months. There are kids who adapt to the Enzo schedule/regimented crap. And then there are the rest of the babies in the world)

^bull. shit.

People whose babies don't "learn" it are told that they're doing it wrong.

People whose babies don't "learn" it lie and say the kid did so that sanctimonious twits quit telling them they're doing it wrong.

In that post, she says this:

We’ve had 4 newborn babies in the ICU for different reasons and the hospital staff always immediately puts the baby on a strict 3-hour eating schedule; and we’ve had many other friends who have experienced the same thing. No matter what might be “PCâ€, when medical staff does not seem to be considering what is most popular but is acting on what’s best for baby’s health they always seem to implement a schedule.

I'm not a parent, so I don't know much about feeding babies, but I thought on-demand was the medically-recommended way. My first thought when I read this is that hospitals function on strict schedules because there are a lot of people needing a lot of care, and it's not specific to NICU. Anyone with more knowledge about feeding babies who cares to weigh in?

My mum claims we all slept through the night by two months, but that might be the rose-tinted glasses/wanting grandchildren thing, and besides when she says "through the night" she probably means 6-7 hours, not 11.

[alba]

According to how I'm reading this bizarrely regimented schedule, the two oldest girls do have school work until around noon, including a little math early in the morning while they alternate showers, and violin practice at 11:30. Then they have time (supposedly) for finishing up any schoolwork they didn't get to in the morning, between 2 and 3:30. The way the schedule is formatted makes it look like the oldest does almost no schooling at all, but I think that time block is combined with her sister's. They certainly don't seem to have any free time to just read, hang out, or do anything else young teens like to do, though. :?

The way it looks to me is that the oldest spends her morning teaching Kindergarten and grades 1 and 3. Also, she's the one changing diapers in the afternoon (I love how there's a time slot for that; not even Erika can train babies to poop on demand).

The saddest bit is that it looks like the closest to "fun" time she has is playing with her baby siblings :(

[dawbs]

I'm w/ you Alba, on the "hospitals do it this way" being BS.

Yes, hospitals also mass produce food and put babies in wee boxes to sleep in, in a giant room w/ other babies. It's what they do because it's wht they HAVE to do--not because an institutional setting is ideal.

(I'll also say that my 2.5 year old has been having night terror-like-stuff and hasn't sleep through the night in a week. She was 18 months before she STTN [slept therough the night]. I know she's a 'remarkably' bad sleeper but, I'm not trusting your mum :-)

I do think that a lot of people who have done cry-it-out (CIO) methods have a vested interest in promoting that method.

Someone described it rather like this to me...imagine the worst "CIO" situation you can think of (and make it be say, 40 years ago)--imagine a young, first time mother being told, in no uncertain terms, that she was spoiling her baby. Imagine her ganged up on by her mom, her MIL, her doctor and her nurse. All of whom told her that not only was she making life hard for herself, she was going to MORALLY RUIN her child by spoiling it.

So imagine this young mother enduring days, maybe even weeks, of a baby screaming.

She gets up at 6 am, feeds the baby for 20-minutes a side, and puts the baby down--and it screams for an hour--she has strict instructions not to pick it up for at least an hour.

Repeat that at 11am, 4 pm, and 9 pm.

Eventually the pathetic baby gives up and just does sad whimpers. She feeds the baby as much milk as she can, but the strict schedule has left her supply to low, so she also feeds it karo-syrup formula...and she's a complete wreck because she spends a huge portion of every day just trying to block out baby's screaming.

....

Now, 40 years later, she is talking to her daughter-in-law and DIL tells her "oh, it does permanent damage for the ability to breast-feed if we CIO, I'm feeding him on demand".

This woman has a gut reaction of "LIKE HELL"--because she went through all of that and now they're saying that was WRONG? They're saying she tortured her child and herself for NOTHING? No no no, it MUST be right--that's the only way to not have guilt and angst about the whole thing. It MUST have been right to CIO, her DIL must be wrong.

That's an over-simplification. And I"m sure sometimes it cuts both ways (I fed on demand and nursed my child for almost 18 months--and it wasn't until after weaning that she STTN--I have a sneaking suspicion that if I would have weaned earlier, she'd have STTN earlier. If I had it to do over again, I would wean a bit sooner)--I'm sure the current 'on demand' feeders who find themselves exhausted and unable to keep up defend their position to.

But anecdata says those who have gone through the CIO paces are very dedicated to it being the ONLY right way.

[Loveday]

The way it looks to me is that the oldest spends her morning teaching Kindergarten and grades 1 and 3. Also, she's the one changing diapers in the afternoon (I love how there's a time slot for that; not even Erika can train babies to poop on demand).

The saddest bit is that it looks like the closest to "fun" time she has is playing with her baby siblings :(

I think you're mistaking the oldest girl for Erika. :) Erika is the mom, 'K14' is Karen, the oldest girl, and 'M13' is Melanie (I think that's her name). Erika's got diaper changing at 4pm (why on earth that needs to be scheduled is very odd--doesn't she change diapers when they NEED changed, not on a schedule? :shock: ), and she's the one teaching the younger children in that morning block of time.

[Tanaqui]

I'm not a parent, so I don't know much about feeding babies, but I thought on-demand was the medically-recommended way. My first thought when I read this is that hospitals function on strict schedules because there are a lot of people needing a lot of care, and it's not specific to NICU. Anyone with more knowledge about feeding babies who cares to weigh in?

My mum claims we all slept through the night by two months, but that might be the rose-tinted glasses/wanting grandchildren thing, and besides when she says "through the night" she probably means 6-7 hours, not 11.

I'm breast feeding and I was told at the hospital it was best to do it on demand. That said, this:

We learned about a medically-proven, healthy continuum where baby begins eating at certain intervals, and sleeping for certain amounts of time. Generally, from birth to 3 months there’s an incremental progression of eating greater quantities less often, staying awake in larger blocks of time, and sleeping more at night. Baby then learns how to progress along, very gently and gradually increasing the distance between meals, and then little-by-little increasing the amount of time they are able to stay awake; taking sleep time off of their day in tiny increments and sticking that sleep time onto their night.

Sounds a lot like the schedule my son worked himself into. Barring growth spurts, he's fairly predictable at three months old. Eat every three(ish) hours, play 45min - 1.5 hrs, nap 1-2 hrs, when he wakes depending on nap length he either plays a bit and then eats or eats right away, then about 8 hrs sleep at night. But that's just us. I don't think there's any real normal for babies any more than there's normal for children or adults.

Maybe I'm not reading thoroughly, but I don't see her claiming to have a newborn sleeping through the night or going long periods without eating (besides mentioning the 3 hr NICU feeding schedule). If I understand correctly, they work up to the 4 hr intervals and 11 hr nights by 3 months.

[docmom]

We’ve had 4 newborn babies in the ICU for different reasons and the hospital staff always immediately puts the baby on a strict 3-hour eating schedule; and we’ve had many other friends who have experienced the same thing. No matter what might be “PCâ€, when medical staff does not seem to be considering what is most popular but is acting on what’s best for baby’s health they always seem to implement a schedule.

I'm not a parent, so I don't know much about feeding babies, but I thought on-demand was the medically-recommended way. My first thought when I read this is that hospitals function on strict schedules because there are a lot of people needing a lot of care, and it's not specific to NICU. Anyone with more knowledge about feeding babies who cares to weigh in?

My mum claims we all slept through the night by two months, but that might be the rose-tinted glasses/wanting grandchildren thing, and besides when she says "through the night" she probably means 6-7 hours, not 11.

Hospitals only put NICU babies on a strict feeding schedule to make sure they feed at least every 3 hours and that's the "feeder-grower" babies. NICUs do not allow hungry babies to cry it out! The little ones get fed even more frequently! Nurse to patient ratios in the NICU are very high so nurses have plenty of time to feed the babies as they need it. In the feeder-grower rooms volunteers help feed the babies. Even daycare centers don't have any set routine for the babies until they turn 18 months. They feed on demand, get changed on demand and nap on demand (at least in my experience of 3 separate daycare facilities in 2 different cities).

[alba]

I'm w/ you Alba, on the "hospitals do it this way" being BS.

Yes, hospitals also mass produce food and put babies in wee boxes to sleep in, in a giant room w/ other babies. It's what they do because it's wht they HAVE to do--not because an institutional setting is ideal.

(I'll also say that my 2.5 year old has been having night terror-like-stuff and hasn't sleep through the night in a week. She was 18 months before she STTN [slept therough the night]. I know she's a 'remarkably' bad sleeper but, I'm not trusting your mum :-)

Haha, it's OK; I think it's just been long enough for her that she's forgotten how long it took :D

I think you're mistaking the oldest girl for Erika. :) Erika is the mom, 'K14' is Karen, the oldest girl, and 'M13' is Melanie (I think that's her name). Erika's got diaper changing at 4pm (why on earth that needs to be scheduled is very odd--doesn't she change diapers when they NEED changed, not on a schedule? :shock: ), and she's the one teaching the younger children in that morning block of time.

D'oh! I am. Damn, I feel like an idiot now.

Hospitals only put NICU babies on a strict feeding schedule to make sure they feed at least every 3 hours and that's the "feeder-grower" babies. NICUs do not allow hungry babies to cry it out! The little ones get fed even more frequently! Nurse to patient ratios in the NICU are very high so nurses have plenty of time to feed the babies as they need it. In the feeder-grower rooms volunteers help feed the babies. Even daycare centers don't have any set routine for the babies until they turn 18 months. They feed on demand, get changed on demand and nap on demand (at least in my experience of 3 separate daycare facilities in 2 different cities).

Thanks for the info! Yes, that's very different from *only* feeding babies every 3 hours.

[Rosa]

You're right, Loveday, I was thinking Erika was the oldest daughter. so at least she's doing some school, and Mom is doing a bunch of the childcare.

On that generous note: she may schedule diaper changing to make sure everyone's diaper gets changed even if they don't seem to need it. Mine never cared at all about being wet or dirty, so I had to make sure and check every hour or two, or he'd get diaper rash. Waiting for him to act like he needed changing (even as a toddler) would have left him in the same diaper all day.

[Loveday]

D'oh! I am. Damn, I feel like an idiot now.

Don't feel like that. I'm the one who should feel like an idiot for spending so much time--that I'll never get back! :? --just reading that damned schedule. :lol: (Or should I say... *laugh* )

[alba]

Don't feel like that. I'm the one who should feel like an idiot for spending so much time--that I'll never get back! :? --just reading that damned schedule. :lol: (Or should I say... *laugh* )

:lol:

[AuntCloud]

We’ve had 4 newborn babies in the ICU for different reasons and the hospital staff always immediately puts the baby on a strict 3-hour eating schedule; and we’ve had many other friends who have experienced the same thing. No matter what might be “PCâ€, when medical staff does not seem to be considering what is most popular but is acting on what’s best for baby’s health they always seem to implement a schedule.

Now I need some blood-pressure medication. :angry-banghead:

W to the frigging F, someone get this woman a brain-transplant, stat *giggle*

Okay, lady, let's get a few things straight.

NICU staff is NOT scheduling babies because it's oh-so-healthy, it's because this is the only way a large institution works. Have you noticed my wording here? Institution. That's why the lights are always on and you can't pick up your baby when they're crying. That's what your house is like, lady *smile*

I need to take a deep breath now, I'm so riled up. :angry-screaming:

Let us continue, shall we? younger preemies and very sick babies won't feed on demand because they're either too sick to cry or are on a respirator/CPAP. Y :clap: ou don't wait for them to politely ask for their milk, therefore you actively feed them.

Cloudlet #1 hated these scheduled feedings with a vengeance. When she was strong enough to cry, she cried for half an hour before feedings. If I was with her, which was for about 14-15 hours a day, I fed her. Otherwise, the nurses would tell me they would sneak some food or start 15 minutes before schedule. At home she would feed every 2 hours. She's in middle school now and still has to eat frequent small portions to maintain her blood sugar and good spirits and avoid me throttling her.

Stupid, stupid, stupid fundies, and those poor kids. Precious blessings, my gluteus maximus.

[happy atheist]

I thought you guys were exaggerating all the *smile* crap, but then I went and looked at the blog.

That's so fucking distracting!

When I see it, I hear her saying it in a really weird, crinkly, saccharine voice. I don't picture someone smiling, or laughing, or what the fuck ever. *barf*

[cate]

I'm reading her "Surrendering Control to God" family planning nonsense. She went on the pill after each birth of five of her first six kids, but she talks about how she was "surrendering control" of her fertility because, you know, she didn't stay on the pill forever - just for a year or so to space the babies out. Uh. What. How is that different from any other family that does the same exact thing? What a speshul, speshul blessing! *giggle* *barf*

With the ability to purchase our first house and moving to a far better area, God's provision was so obvious and so encouraging! At this point we ramped up our faith to go off of birth control again. God then gave us our fourth child, three years apart from our third (so Brandon has three years on either side of him). *smile*

Well with those two pregnancies being back-to-back I was feeling afraid of not having time to lose any baby weight and physically and emotionally relax for a while; disappointingly we went back on the pill at this point determining to do so for only one year. In actuality this turned out to be sixteen months later, but we were ready to stretch our faith again, still relying completely on the Lord's provision financially, and went off of the pill. We conceived our sixth child immediately who was then born 2 years after the fifth. We were now exceeding our mini-van's capacity. But notice we did not refrain from getting pregnant until we had a large enough vehicle! Our faith was growing, we were becoming able to obey despite the circumstances we could see with our eyes, and God moved on our behalf after we had obeyed by leaving control with Him.

[Rosa]

Cloudlet #1 hated these scheduled feedings with a vengeance. When she was strong enough to cry, she cried for half an hour before feedings. If I was with her, which was for about 14-15 hours a day, I fed her. Otherwise, the nurses would tell me they would sneak some food or start 15 minutes before schedule. At home she would feed every 2 hours. She's in middle school now and still has to eat frequent small portions to maintain her blood sugar and good spirits and avoid me throttling her.

Mine, too, though he didn't cry in NICU because he didn't start crying until he hit his due date.

Turns out, as a big kid (2nd grade) he doesn't generally eat much at one sitting, eats S.L.O.W.L.Y. and eats often. People have said, both when I was nursing and now, that it's because I "let" him learn this inefficient eating pattern. If i just had more discipline he'd eat large meals quickly on my timetable and not bother me otherwise. Which is every parent's goal, right? A child who doesn't bother you?

Except it's not actually a discipline issue. Actually if he eats too fast, or too much at one time, he pukes. He was quite a puker until about age 4, when he learned to stop when he got full even if we were urging him to eat more. Now we let him be in charge of his own stomach, and in reward I have only cleaned up puke once in the last 2 years.

[Koala]

I only have 2 kids, & I took the smallest bedroom, which is the "back room". If you're from the south you know the one I'm talking about! It's the small room off the kitchen in my 85 year old house, and had a bathroom addition tacked on in the '50's. That's the only bathroom, so I took that bedroom so I'd be the one who wakes up at night whenever anyone needs to go.

My oldest is in college, & when they move out permanently I'll take that room.

I've had people tell me I should have the biggest bedroom, and put one of the kids in the dining room or living room. Yeah, an open room with no doors makes a great bedroom for a teenager! Having a small room with constant bathroom traffic hasn't killed me yet.

I think fundies want the "prestige" of having a crapload of arrows in the quiver, but don't want to inconvenience themselves.

We had one of those in our house. The person who lived here before us had the wall torn out so she would have a really big kitchen though. :lol: My kitchen in gigantic (to me), but I think if I'd had my way we'd have just left it the way it was before.

[pirouette]

The children lives are regimented like little soldiers. She has schedules and reasons behind everything including showering! I cannot imagine living in such a way with such military precision. There is no spontaneity. Those poor children barely leave the house even to play as their yard has a drainage problem and is often wet. The older girls do all the washing, and most of the food prep and cooking. As the above poster said the 14yo barely does school work as she is often finished by 9am and mentors the little ones. She must only do an hour or two hours a day! The bedrooms both are downstairs away from the master and the children are squashed in like sardines with one poor girl stuck on the floor. All I can think is poor kids that is no way to live. No excitement and daily routines. Being a child is about having free time to play creatively and explore with limits and a flexible routine that allows incidental learning. She mentions that the babies spend a lot of time strapped to high chairs, in portacots or on a towel. I guess it's a form of blanket training. I hope those children get the chance to enjoy themselves sometimes.

Yes! Earlier in this thread, I said that their small house means that they should really consider moving. I thought about going back and deleting it because it assumed things about class that I probably shouldn't assume. And after all, a big house doesn't guarantee happiness, you can manage perfectly well living in a house/apartment that isn't your dream size, and certainly small houses can be nice and cozy. But I think your post gets at what I meant without realizing that I meant it. It's not that their house is small in and of itself, it's that their children never leave the house. When they play outside, it's in a small backyard and still with their siblings. They don't go to school, and don't have extracurricular activities. They're not just coming home to a small house, they're in that house all day, having scheduled playtimes in various rooms of the house, the same schedule every day, always stuck. Reminds me a little of the Anderson kids-- though I think they're less scheduled, they're definitely just as stuck and isolated.

I really hope they realize how stifling their children's situation is and find a way to fix it (whether it's moving, expanding the house, or even just finding new indoor places they can run and play [their area of the country isn't great for nice weather.])

[Salamander]

*laugh* *smile* *chuckle* *sigh* *beam* *wink* *shrug*

Nothing to add except SHUT THE FUCK UP, ERIKA. :violence-hammer:

[Feberin]

You're right, Loveday, I was thinking Erika was the oldest daughter. so at least she's doing some school, and Mom is doing a bunch of the childcare.

On that generous note: she may schedule diaper changing to make sure everyone's diaper gets changed even if they don't seem to need it. Mine never cared at all about being wet or dirty, so I had to make sure and check every hour or two, or he'd get diaper rash. Waiting for him to act like he needed changing (even as a toddler) would have left him in the same diaper all day.

I think that diaper change is scheduled since it's right after naps so all the diaper wearing children would need to be changed at once taking up a lot of time.

[Hane]

Dear Erika: All that *laugh* *smile* *chuckle* *sigh* *beam* *wink* *shrug* shizz is nothing more than a great way to trumpet the fact that YOU'RE A LOUSY WRITER. Try leaving it out, and your posts might almost be readable.

[Scales]

I look at it and think "what if there were a fire?" The bunkbed pushed against the window...geez...you can't do that in dorm rooms, it's not allowed because of the need to use the window if there's a fire.

Also, I see no evidence of personality. You are just a BOY or a GIRL, with those attendant personalities. Nothing to distinguish post-crib-age from 15, either.

And at 14 and 15 years old to still have the same bedtime as your baby sisters...

The tone of the whole site is not written in a "we like having a big family, we want to help others with their big families so maybe they can learn from us instead of having to do it the hard way." It's written in a "we do it the only right way, and if you do it another way it's because you're wrong" kind of tone.

Also, the babies are in cribs but shouldn't be if they're climbing out. They're waiting for a tax return before getting safe sleeping quarters for their kids? Why not just put the crib mattresses on the floor? None of my kids have slept in a crib past 18 months because they climbed out. After that it was a mattress on the floor. Safe.

And she has her 3 year old in a crib tent? I have a 3 year old, I can't imagine doing that to her. How horrible. And, crib tents are recalled, but she knows better than the dumb people who recalled them, so she's going to use it anyway. On her 3 year old.