Catholic Conversation with Gay Friend about Gay Marriage

[clarinetpower]

conversiondiary.com/2012/07/a-conversation-with-my-gay-friend.html

FWIW, the Catholics I know who believe this are so far from the "joy" she describes, they couldn't find it with GPS, a map, and a string tied from it to their...um...finger?

[tuckerphez]

Ugh this was so hard to read.

I feel bad for her gay friends, if they actually exist.

[GiGi_41]

Because marriage is about new human life. That’s what the binoculars analogy was about: Yes, marriage is about sex. But it’s about sex because sex is how new life is created — and, ultimately, it is an institution ordered toward protection and respect for new people.â€

This crazy reasoning really pisses me off. It's all about sex being sacred and only used for creating new life.

I guess that may other half and I can never get married because I am lacking a uterus, and unlike DeDe and XGayGreg, I know that there is no miracle under the sun that can make me pregnant with a lunghorse after my other half rubs lotion on my legs. :o

Personally I think that she is the one with the binoculars. I have to wonder if she was truly an atheist before she converted.

[Hane]

:roll: Yeah, but EVERYBODY has to follow the same laws of chastity--and it's SOOOOOOOO hard for HER to have to limit her sexual expression to her husband. That's every bit as hard as her two gay friends having to limit their sexual expression to, well, NOBODY. :roll:

[duplessis3]

No, no,it is okay for straight infertile people to have sex because the sex is procreative in general, if not in particular. So apparently...PIV only for Catholics.

And why the hell did she think her imaginary gay friend didn't know about female reproduction? didn't he take biology in high school?

Remember, she isn't homophobic though!

[Hane]

Still shaking with rage remembering her post. If these "gay friends" of hers genuinely consider her a friend, they are far more forgiving people than I'll ever be.

[slh12280]

This post pretty much summarized the things that I have problems with in the Catholic church, hence I am not Catholic.

[Cora Persephona]

So it's a big, big sacrifice not to have sex for a few days per month, but living without sex can be a great thing(but I guess only for other people?)! Yay, consistency... Also, her "some days" sacrifice is equal to a "never ever" sacrifice? It must be good when you're on the "some days" side.

Sure, you can be a "faithful" Catholic and a close "friend", it doesn't negate that you are an awful human being.

[yewchapel]

I don't believe she's homophobic. I believe she's guilted into being homophobic by the Magisterium and its tenets. I used to be the same way due to the evangelical church I was a part of - evangelical guilt and Catholic guilt being close cousins. When the threat of damnation is hanging over you, you'll believe what people tell you. She's not homophobic because she's a dickhead, she's homophobic because her church discourages critical thinking (not that this excuses it at all).

[CrankyCatLady]

Wow. If I were "Andrew," I would have given her a piece of my mind and then broken off the friendship. How can you just go on to have another hour or two of laughter and fun when your close friend just told you all that bullshit?

[Savoring Samsara]

I don't believe she's homophobic. I believe she's guilted into being homophobic by the Magisterium and its tenets. I used to be the same way due to the evangelical church I was a part of - evangelical guilt and Catholic guilt being close cousins. When the threat of damnation is hanging over you, you'll believe what people tell you. She's not homophobic because she's a dickhead, she's homophobic because her church discourages critical thinking (not that this excuses it at all).

IAWTC. From what I've read of Jennifer Fulwiler's blog, she comes off as a person who is a very ordered thinker, and someone who is not into half measures - her belief system is very much all or nothing. When she converted, her black and white way of thinking meant that she couldn't allow herself to become a moderate or a "cafeteria Catholic," or even to make a gradual entry into her new religion to ease the transition from her previously secular way of life. No, it was right into being a head-covering daily-Mass-attending homeschooling birth-control-eschewing anti-choice-protesting hardcore Catholic fundie. (Some parts of this, like the daily Mass, has since fallen by the wayside.)

By her own admission, she was extremely "worldly" not very long ago: conversiondiary.com/2008/10/five-years-later.html

What strikes me from that post (and from her blog as a whole) is how fondly she talks about the lifestyle she left behind, even as she remains firm in her conviction that it was a wrong and empty way to live. I think that once she became convinced that Catholicism was the only true religion, she also convinced herself that an extremely conservative, traditionalist way of life was also the only correct expression of her beliefs in the world. Her salvation was what was really important to her - the saying terrible things to her gay friends, and having eleventy billion high-risk pregnancies, just had to come along with that because she doesn't see herself as having any other choice in the matter if she wants to stay saved. If she somehow became no longer Catholic, I have no doubt that she would run right back to her condo-living, LGBT-rights-supporting ways once her interpretation of the Word of God was no longer inclining her away from her previous direction.

[rward]

This crazy reasoning really pisses me off. It's all about sex being sacred and only used for creating new life.

I guess that may other half and I can never get married because I am lacking a uterus, and unlike DeDe and XGayGreg, I know that there is no miracle under the sun that can make me pregnant with a lunghorse after my other half rubs lotion on my legs. :o

Personally I think that she is the one with the binoculars. I have to wonder if she was truly an atheist before she converted.

What I find disturbing is that they reduce marriage to one physical act. Marriage is so much more than that, or it should be. I feel terribly sad for anyone who truly is in a marriage due to sex. That's just pathetic.

[linnea27]

I love how she knew that her story sounded so ridiculous she had to add a footnote that, no, it didn't really happen this way. As if that wasn't obvious from reading it.

And this? Dumbest thing I have read in a while:

“I worry about what will happen to our society if everyone starts thinking that marriage is about any two people doing whatever they want. But that has nothing to do with being anti-gay.â€Â 

I am not anti-gay people, I just think you will RUIN OUR SOCIETY WITH YOUR EVIL WAYS. But I love you, you evil sinner!

By her own logic, my married lesbian friends should be a-ok in her books because they did get married and have children? Is the act of sperm donation and IUI sacred now too, since it results in life?

[FaustianSlip]

I'm reading the post now and find it rage-inducing for various reasons (I am not LGBT, for the record). First, she comes off as very much wanting to have her cake and eat it to. She wants to have the certainty of an orthodox faith, the order of a church that tells her what to do all the time, the simplicity of following the rules and knowing she'll get to Heaven, but she also wants to maintain friendships with people she knew before her conversion whose lives, in one way or another, are now at odds with her current, very vocally-stated belief system. So what does she do? She spins. She spins, spins, spins to her gay friends' faces, trying to equate not being able to have oral sex with a lifetime of celibacy (celibacy that can't even be offered up as a spiritual gift of some kind, incidentally, since they've barred gay men from being priests). It's all about procreation, she says, and when her friend rightfully calls her out with the point about infertile couples, she backtracks and offers the lame, "Well, I meant it's ordered toward procreation." I'm sorry, but if two seventy-year-olds marry each other, they're not going to suddenly start popping out kids, and everyone knows it. There's nothing about that type of marriage that's ordered toward procreation.

If you can look your gay friends in the eye and tell them, "You're great and all, but I don't think you should be allowed to get married," you're not much of a friend, IMHO. It would be like telling a Jewish friend, "Eh, you're great, but the order of the universe requires that you work in that forced labor camp." The comments below the post, loaded with all of the usual persecution crap, are just as infuriating.

[AVENues]

“I worry about what will happen to our society if everyone starts thinking that marriage is about any two people doing whatever they want. But that has nothing to do with being anti-gay.â€Â I messed up quoting -

1.) She is anti-gay.

2.) She meant to say, what will happen to society if TWO ADULTS that give their consent to officially living in a marriage? Why? What the fuck will happen?! :?:

[yewchapel]

This is what I wrote in my comment. She's allowing opposing views so I assume it'll get published.

"First of all, I think it's clear that you're not a homophobe, but a loving and caring friend. However I see so much of my former evangelical self in your views. I used to belong to a conservative evangelical Anglican church and believed as you do about homosexuality, albeit without the Catholic-specific beliefs about the theology of the body. But I didn't want to believe this way! I believed this way because of the guilt heaped upon me about what would happen if I did not, but deep down I honestly had no problem with homosexuality - but did not want to compromise my own salvation. If that is you, do not be afraid - God loves everyone and I believe, saves everyone. Homosexuality is no more a sin than having brown hair. It is perfectly possible to be a faithful Christian and to be OK with homosexuality and marriage equality. I am now a liberal Anglo-Catholic (I would actually love to be a Catholic but do not believe in the authority of the Pope and magisterium which is, um, a problem for Catholics). My priest is gay. I am bisexual, yet God is still calling me to the priesthood (and yes, I am female). Has it not occured to you or any of the other Catholics here that in fact the Holy Spirit is speaking of God's love and acceptance for LGBT people and marriage equality, but the Catholic church is just not listening? I do believe that ++Jefferts Schori, The Episcopal Church and other parts of the Anglican Communion (and others such as the ELCA and Methodist churches) are called to speak prophetically on love and justice for the LGBT community and others. The magisterium does NOT have an exclusive hotline to God that we don't have. The Holy Spirit is indeed causing mischief.

This might seem like a negative comment - it's not supposed to be. In your post I could clearly see the love you have for your friend. I haven't read the rest of your blog (I will do so) but you are obviously a loving person. I just pray that the love God has for LGBT people AND their relationships (such as the eunuchs mentioned in Isaiah and Matthew, and Jesus' blessing of a gay Centurion and his servant-lover) would be shown to you. I too am a convert from atheism to Christianity (and Anglo-Catholicism is functionally very similar to Catholicism, we love the Saints and Our Lady too for instance), we seem to have some things in common.

Have a blessed rest of Holy Week and Easter."

[valsa]

I don't believe she's homophobic.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

She believes homophobic things and she acts in homophobic ways- she is homophobic.

[yewchapel]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

She believes homophobic things and she acts in homophobic ways- she is homophobic.

But it's not coming from a place of homophobia. She doesn't not believe in marriage equality because she hates gay people, she doesn't believe in it because she doesn't want to lose her salvation. There is a difference between being a homophobic person and doing/believing in homophobic things. I don't think everyone opposed to marriage equality is homophobic. I think they're wrong, and certainly some are homophobic, but the world isn't divided into those in favour of marriage equality and those who hate gay people. Certainly her ACTIONS are hateful but I don't think she is a hateful person.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Sure, her religious beliefs say that any other kind of sex other than penis in vagina (in marriage) is wrong. Fine, dont do that then. But why does she think that non Christians shouldnt be able to get married because they have sex in ways her religion doesnt approve of? Its like Muslims trying to ban bacon because they cant eat it so nobody else should have to.

[valsa]

But it's not coming from a place of homophobia. She doesn't not believe in marriage equality because she hates gay people, she doesn't believe in it because she doesn't want to lose her salvation. There is a difference between being a homophobic person and doing/believing in homophobic things. I don't think everyone opposed to marriage equality is homophobic. I think they're wrong, and certainly some are homophobic, but the world isn't divided into those in favour of marriage equality and those who hate gay people. Certainly her ACTIONS are hateful but I don't think she is a hateful person.

And you don't think that choosing to believe in a religious doctrine that promotes bigotry against homosexuals counts as hating homosexuals?

[Boogalou]

But it's not coming from a place of homophobia. She doesn't not believe in marriage equality because she hates gay people, she doesn't believe in it because she doesn't want to lose her salvation. There is a difference between being a homophobic person and doing/believing in homophobic things. I don't think everyone opposed to marriage equality is homophobic. I think they're wrong, and certainly some are homophobic, but the world isn't divided into those in favour of marriage equality and those who hate gay people. Certainly her ACTIONS are hateful but I don't think she is a hateful person.

At the end of the day though her actions are the same whether she is homophobic or doing homophibic things. I doubt people care if the hurt she is causing them is due to one reason or the other (I am guessing her friend was hurt by what she said, I'm not him so I don't know). Also, I hate it when people quote the dictionary but Merriam-Webster calls homophobia: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. And with her views she is definitely discriminating.

[wtylcf]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

She believes homophobic things and she acts in homophobic ways- she is homophobic.

I have to agree with you, which is difficult, because I see so much of my former evangelical beliefs in what she says. I believe she is sincere in not wanting to be a homophobe. But there is no possible way to say, "I love you as a friend, but I believe your entire relationship with your significant other is wrong and I would never support your marriage," and be taken seriously. That's not love or friendship or acceptance. There is no way to continue such a friendship without being hypocritical, because if she continues to act as a friend while not agreeing with her friend's identity and his right to equality, she is not truly being a friend. You can't love someone and accept them and yet think they are condemned to hell because of their lifestyle all at the same time, and if she thinks that's possible, she doesn't understand love and acceptance. If her only goal is to witness to him and change his lifestyle, she is likewise not being a true friend. It is this conundrum that eventually pushed my own faith in organized religion to the breaking point.

(Also, equating no oral sex with a lifetime of celibacy is ridiculous, as is the argument that an infertile couple's relationship is still procreation-oriented).

[yewchapel]

And you don't think that choosing to believe in a religious doctrine that promotes bigotry against homosexuals counts as hating homosexuals?

No, because as far as she's concerned she has no choice - it's either believe this or go to Hell. I understand a non-religious person or someone whose religion doesn't include Hell not getting this, but if you're (general you) being told by your religious authorities to believe in this or else....you believe in it. Religious belief is not as simple as flipping a switch. Like I said before, I believe her actions to be hateful and utterly wrong. There's no question about that.

[yewchapel]

At the end of the day though her actions are the same whether she is homophobic or doing homophibic things. I doubt people care if the hurt she is causing them is due to one reason or the other (I am guessing her friend was hurt by what she said, I'm not him so I don't know). Also, I hate it when people quote the dictionary but Merriam-Webster calls homophobia: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. And with her views she is definitely discriminating.

That is true about people not caring whether the hurt caused is due to whatever reason. I guess I'm just trying to think about whether she could potentially change her mind on the issue. And she is being discriminatory - I do believe her actions are homophobic at the very least.

[valsa]

No, because as far as she's concerned she has no choice - it's either believe this or go to Hell. I understand a non-religious person or someone whose religion doesn't include Hell not getting this, but if you're (general you) being told by your religious authorities to believe in this or else....you believe in it. Religious belief is not as simple as flipping a switch. Like I said before, I believe her actions to be hateful and utterly wrong. There's no question about that.

It may not be as simple as flipping a light switch but it is still a choice. If you (general you) choose to believe hateful and bigoted things instead of seeking out kinder and gentler religious beliefs that are more in line with your own supposed non-hateful morality, then the only conclusion is that you are doing it because you are a hateful and bigoted person.

This woman chose the Catholic church, despite its vile beliefs about certain minorities like women and homosexuals. She even admitted that she chose the Catholic church because she felt it provided a guideline for everyone to live a peaceful life (provided you aren't one of those minorities the church likes to shit on, of course) That's not fear of hell- that's a conscious decision to align yourself with an institution that props up people like yourself and beats down people not like you.