Because men can never know

[EyeQueue]

This presents an excellent commentary on rape culture and the seemingly "innocent" attitudes and actions of men that make it so entrenched and oftentimes invisible.

And while I have never been the victim of a rape, I do often feel what the author in this article talks about: wondering when it's going to happen. And that's a fear that the vast majority of men will just flat-out never feel.

www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics ... de-the-bar

[formergothardite]

Sometime, when you’re ready for a change of perspective, download the Google plug-in “Jailbreak the Patriarchy.†A quick click flips the pronouns and other gendered words in whatever digital content you’re reading, exposing sexist or sexualized word choice, structure, and style. Boom, bias exposed! Give it a whirl with coverage of female politicians and ask yourself whether anyone would spend this much time discussing Joe Biden’s hairstyles. Try it with pop stars and imagine a world where a teenaged girl could, without being pilloried, comfortably talk about her sexuality using the same language as 18-year-old One Direction singer Harry Styles. Jailbreak whatever you want, just to see what it looks like on the other side.

This is so true.

[celestial]

Wow, cool! Thanks for sharing.

[TheSassyOne]

So what? You say. So you get a lot of attention, why is that such a bad thing? Annoying, maybe, but no harm, no foul! You know you mean no harm, but how do I know that? When women get harassed on the street, or at a bar, or on their walk home from work, do you know what we think? We wonder, am I going to get out of this safely? Am I going to walk away from this? Where are my keys if I need to stab someone in the eye? Are there people on the street? Will they hear me? Which way will I run? Solar Plexus, Instep, Nose, Groin. I’m exaggerating, but only so slightly. Does it disturb you that we think like this? That we have to think like this?

This is so true. I've found myself at various times in my life having those exact thoughts. I am very annoyed when loved ones have diminished my worries with a "oh he/they were probably just being silly". My response was always, "but why is that okay?"

[thetabmeister]

This is so true. I've found myself at various times in my life having those exact thoughts. I am very annoyed when loved ones have diminished my worries with a "oh he/they were probably just being silly". My response was always, "but why is that okay?"

This, times 1000.

[cindyluvs24]

Years ago, Helen Gurley Brown was given a few minutes to comment on sexual harassment in the workplace. This was actually many years ago, when women started suing. She said something like " I've been chased around the desk and what's wrong with it? Its fabulous that your boss thinks you're attractive." IMHO, that pinched hag can not know what it feels like to have to put up with it because she needs the job to pay her rent and feed her kids.

I never put much stock in her magazine either. I

[thetabmeister]

Years ago, Helen Gurley Brown was given a few minutes to comment on sexual harassment in the workplace. This was actually many years ago, when women started suing. She said something like " I've been chased around the desk and what's wrong with it? Its fabulous that your boss thinks you're attractive." IMHO, that pinched hag can not know what it feels like to have to put up with it because she needs the job to pay her rent and feed her kids.

I never put much stock in her magazine either. I

Whoa, I would SO not be okay with this. I'm there to work, not to flirt. That's what I always had to tell my male co-workers (granted, I've only worked in less-than-professional places such as Cracker Barrel, Wendy's, etc.) I was just recounting to my husband last night how I quit CB because of the sexual harrassment from the general manager. After I told my fundie mother about his actions and then that I had told him off when quitting, she got so mad at me for yelling at him that she made me go back to the store and apologize to him. Way to blame the victim, mom. Is it any wonder I can barely speak to or interact with her? I feel more empathy with a scorpion or a brown recluse spider.

ETA: bolding mine

[Inanna]

I did a multicultural psychology course and one of the things we talked about was gender differences. The teacher asked the women in the class: "You're going to your car alone. It's 11pm. You're in a middle-class neighborhood, but your car is a block or more away. What do you think, how do you act?" Most of the women said they would get out their pepper spray or knife, they would look around to make sure no one was following them, they would check around/under/in the back seat of their car as they approached, they would see if they could get a male companion/coworker to walk them, etc.

Then she asked the same of the men in the class. They all looked kind of shell-shocked at our responses, and they said slowly, "I... walk to my car and get in?" They really had no idea that women felt that way.

[bluelady]

I agree with all of that. I'm a health teacher and, as part of our unit on bullying, we were talking about harassing behaviours. I told them the story about the time I was going to buy a gift for my SO. It was something very specific and there was only one store in town that sold it. The store was downtown and, in the city I lived in at the time, downtown was not a safe place to be. Anyway, I made sure to go in the afternoon, when it was still light out and there were still people about. I had to walk a block to get from the parking garage to the store. In the time period, a group of 6 young guys followed me and tried to intimidate me. My students (who are in Grade 7, still very young and from a small town) were surprised. It made me sad to think that in just a few years the girls in my class will be going off to college and they'll use some of those tactics, just like I have.

But, then again, it's not just strangers. I've had two students sexually harass me over the years. In one instance, it was a sexually charged comment said as a joke to get a laugh from the rest of the class. The other instance, I was at my desk at lunch and one of my students entered the room. He shut the door behind him and approached me slowly, repeating "It's just you and me in here". I exited through the fire door and told administration. They poo-poo'd it away. I mean, he was only 14 :roll:

[debrand]

I did a multicultural psychology course and one of the things we talked about was gender differences. The teacher asked the women in the class: "You're going to your car alone. It's 11pm. You're in a middle-class neighborhood, but your car is a block or more away. What do you think, how do you act?" Most of the women said they would get out their pepper spray or knife, they would look around to make sure no one was following them, they would check around/under/in the back seat of their car as they approached, they would see if they could get a male companion/coworker to walk them, etc.

Then she asked the same of the men in the class. They all looked kind of shell-shocked at our responses, and they said slowly, "I... walk to my car and get in?" They really had no idea that women felt that way.

And if the woman is raped, she'll be asked why she didn't check her backseat, walk faster, carry pepper spray etc.

[keen23]

I did a multicultural psychology course and one of the things we talked about was gender differences. The teacher asked the women in the class: "You're going to your car alone. It's 11pm. You're in a middle-class neighborhood, but your car is a block or more away. What do you think, how do you act?" Most of the women said they would get out their pepper spray or knife, they would look around to make sure no one was following them, they would check around/under/in the back seat of their car as they approached, they would see if they could get a male companion/coworker to walk them, etc.

Then she asked the same of the men in the class. They all looked kind of shell-shocked at our responses, and they said slowly, "I... walk to my car and get in?" They really had no idea that women felt that way.

Seriously. I work late every other Friday, and I'll move my car to in front of the office, directly under a streetlight while it's still light out, and then lock myself in the office building. This past Friday, I was on my late shift, and one of my employees started banging on the door (this was 15 minutes after everyone else had left) He wanted to use the phone to call someone to pick him up. I told him he'd have to use a phone somewhere else, because I wasn't going to unlock the door. There was no prior indication that this person would be a threat to me. And, his need for a ride was probably legitimate, but still. I wasn't going to put myself in a situation where I was totally alone in a building with this person. And, when I left a few hours later, I was a little scared that he'd still be hanging around. A man wouldn't have had a second thought about it, but as a female, it was an uncomfortable situation.

[Vex]

The app didn't work for me, I wish it had.

I was stunned by how much of that was familiar to me. The keys, the unwanted attention, making up a boyfriend to dodge guys asking for my number, crossing to the other side of the street or waiting for a different cab driver. I'd never thought much of it, I just take it for granted that that's how I live. But we shouldn't have to accept that. We shouldn't have to live that.

[Dysfundamental]

Years ago, Helen Gurley Brown was given a few minutes to comment on sexual harassment in the workplace. This was actually many years ago, when women started suing. She said something like " I've been chased around the desk and what's wrong with it? Its fabulous that your boss thinks you're attractive." IMHO, that pinched hag can not know what it feels like to have to put up with it because she needs the job to pay her rent and feed her kids.

She's dead now, and she supported her mother and her younger sister (who had severe physical disabilities from IIRC polio) with her work during their lifetime.

I really hate the creepy "I survived it, you can too!" energy around sexism and sexual harassment from women of that era who managed to break through the glass ceiling, so I agree with you there, but Brown put in a lot of years of hard work in multiple jobs to support her family before she made it big.

[IamCanadian]

Thanks for this link.

My boyfriend and I were having a conversation about this very thing (i.e. the different worlds that men and women live in) a few days ago. Basically, I was telling him how it's hard to stay in shape (I like running outside) in this part of Canada because from November - late February it's dark at 5pm. His response was "Well, can't you just run in the dark?" When I started running through the details of why that wasn't the safest idea (the ritzy residential neighbourhood to the east that I run through isn't well lit at night, and if I go west, there's a lot of gang activity) he looked intrigued. When I added things like "Well, I'll go to the supermarket at any time of the night because that route is always busy and well lit..." this look of amazement came over his face. He told me that he had never realized that women thought like that before and had to plan everything, but that it made sense. Ever since, he's been asking me more about what it's like in Woman World.

[apple1]

While I (a woman) understand and partially agree with some of this, I have a problem with part of the premise of this thread.

Men are also victims of sexual assault in various forms, and apparently are also less likely to report it for a bunch of reasons. Yes, men can also know.

[Soldier of the One]

I read this article and emailed it to my DH. And I too, stopped and hid in a shop window the other day when a man seemed to be pursuing me. I too, breathe a sigh of relief when I am 'home safe' after walking down the street late at night. And I too, had the thought, 'when will it be me?'

Generally (and I do say generally), men don't have a clue.

[samithemage]

While I (a woman) understand and partially agree with some of this, I have a problem with part of the premise of this thread.

Men are also victims of sexual assault in various forms, and apparently are also less likely to report it for a bunch of reasons. Yes, men can also know.

While men may be the victims of sexual assault, I think that the point of the article was more about how women think in these situations. I doubt most men consider whether it will be safe to walk to their cars or if that man might attack them. The small percentage of men who have been victimized may think that way, but in general almost, if not all, women think that way.

[NeonJungle]

I am so trying to find this article...either salon.com or NYT or just an AP...it was a JPEG and accompanying article of a flyer some college guy had created and posted regarding tips on how to rape a woman. It came out after the Ohio high school student rape incident garnered press, where her classmates posted pictures of her on social media, and one of her classmates on the football team was "interviewed" in a video that was posted to YouTube. Sickening.

Here's a recent article. This situation is appalling.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/186519121.html?id=186519121

[EyeQueue]

Men are also victims of sexual assault in various forms, and apparently are also less likely to report it for a bunch of Men are also victims of sexual assault in various forms, and apparently are also less likely to report it for a bunch of reasons. Yes, men can also know. reason

Of course men are also victims, but I would argue that it's not to the extent where they develop the same mindset of vigilance, and it's not accompanied by the same type and level of pervasive cultural attitudes and beliefs that the article points out. I just really don't think it's close to being the same, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

[B5SnowDog]

Of course men are also victims, but I would argue that it's not to the extent where they develop the same mindset of vigilance, and it's not accompanied by the same type and level of pervasive cultural attitudes and beliefs that the article points out. I just really don't think it's close to being the same, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

I think samithemage had a good point. Men in general do not have the same mindset of vigilance that women in general do unless they've been a victim of sexual assault. It's not usually on their radar until something happens to them while women tend to be aware of the possibility of assault regardless of whether or not they've had a personal history of it.