Cheap and Costly Grace

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh, me! I'll do the closing prayer.

Dear God,

Please don't let the FJ's ask too many questions that I can't provide answers for. Clear their minds of the atrocities in the Bible, and if they do point them out, please let them be easily distracted. When I offer my beliefs, let them not ask what they are based on, for I don't know. It just sounds good to me.

Amen

And all God's former followers said "Amen"! :clap:

[formergothardite]

AMEN!

It would be amusing if she did go ask these questions to her Bible study. She would get kicked out and prayed for in no time flat.

[Sobeknofret]

Is she coming back or is Bible study over?

Uhhh, it's my birthday and I went out to dinner and spent the rest of the night reading a new book on teaching writing to kids. I never intended to abandon the discussion-- I just had real life to engage in. Why the bitchiness and general asshattery? I made it perfectly clear that I was confused about these things at the end of the original post, and wasn't sure exactly where I was going with the idea, and I also made it clear I wasn't connecting it to a Bible study, and that's not the lines I was thinking along. I'm interested in how totally, completely the fundies are missing the mark, even by their own standards, not to mention those of the rest of the secular world.

The reason I brought up the thing about government is about the Old Testament. It's a book of laws, stories, and histories (to some degree) used to govern a tribe of semi-nomadic desert dwellers in the early historic period, who were in danger of losing their religious and cultural identity to surrounding cultures and tribes. The OT describes, in large part, *laws*. Were the examples you gave horrendous? Yes, they're terrible and horrible, and show no compassion. I shudder to think what would happen if we enacted those laws today. And, yet, it's what the fundies we snark on so much want for our country. I don't want a theocratic society, and neither does anyone else here. The problem is that they are so close to getting what they want in terms of a largely theocratic government,

[Sobeknofret]

AMEN!

It would be amusing if she did go ask these questions to her Bible study. She would get kicked out and prayed for in no time flat.

I'm a Quaker. I'm doing the Bonhoeffer study alone, but I'd feel perfectly comfortable bringing these questions up to a group of Quakers (because there are atheist, Catholic, Jewish, Christian, and agnostic Quakers in my meeting), because at least I'd get an intellectually honest discussion, not a bitchy pile-on.

[valsa]

Why the bitchiness and general asshattery?

[Sobeknofret]

Really? I've been around here since the Yuku days, and honestly I'm surprised. I went to dinner with my family and friends. I read a book and played a game on my nook. I'm not glued to this board. Why the pissiness because I did something other than stay online to answer questions which I already admitted I don't have all the answers to?

[formergothardite]

Well, if you want a discussion, then start by addressing why you brought up the government when some of the really bad stuff in the Bible was brought up.

You can also explain why these actions are grace, that confuses me and I asked them.

[valsa]

Really? I've been around here since the Yuku days, and honestly I'm surprised. I went to dinner with my family and friends. I read a book and played a game on my nook. I'm not glued to this board. Why the pissiness because I did something other than stay online to answer questions which I already admitted I don't have all the answers to?

So you've been around since the Yuku days but aren't bright enough to realize posting something like this, then leaving without warning, then accusing us of being bitchy asshats is going to get you labeled as either a drama queen or a troll.

[formergothardite]

I really do want to know why the government was suddenly drug in as a response to things in the Bible. It makes absolutely no sense in my head. If you want to have an intellectual discussion, you have to provide answers that at least relate in some way to what people are saying. The government answer did not.

[Witsec7]

I'm a Quaker. I'm doing the Bonhoeffer study alone, but I'd feel perfectly comfortable bringing these questions up to a group of Quakers (because there are atheist, Catholic, Jewish, Christian, and agnostic Quakers in my meeting), because at least I'd get an intellectually honest discussion, not a bitchy pile-on.

I recognize that anyone can go to a Quaker meeting but I also know that if you are EFCI has a requirement that faith must be placed in Jesus Christ. An atheist has no faith in Jesus or any other deity.

Can I have some clarification on this issue? And I'm with FG on wanting to know why you dragged govt. into the convo. TYVM

[Sobeknofret]

Well, if you want a discussion, then start by addressing why you brought up the government when some of the really bad stuff in the Bible was brought up.

You can also explain why these actions are grace, that confuses me and I asked them.

I did explain the first part. See post above.

I never said they were grace. I said that grace as Bonhoeffer describes it consists of doing some hard things-- helping the oppressed and helping them stand equal with their oppressors. That's the hard things that Bonhoffer discusses; working to achieve social justice. It's also what the fundies we snark on refuse to see. It's what the Christ of the NT asked Christians to do.

[Sobeknofret]

I recognize that anyone can go to a Quaker meeting but I also know that if you are EFCI has a requirement that faith must be placed in Jesus Christ. An atheist has no faith in Jesus or any other deity.

Can I have some clarification on this issue? And I'm with FG on wanting to know why you dragged govt. into the convo. TYVM

I'm not an Evangelical Friend. I'm a Liberal Friend and attend a liberal meeting.

[formergothardite]

You know, your response to Koala was really the first bitchy post in this thread, so you can't really say it is all our fault for just being mean bitches.

[Sobeknofret]

So you've been around since the Yuku days but aren't bright enough to realize posting something like this, then leaving without warning, then accusing us of being bitchy asshats is going to get you labeled as either a drama queen or a troll.

Leaving without warning? Really? I have to give you warning before I leave my computer to do other things? Sorry, my actions aren't accountable to you.

[Sobeknofret]

You know, your response to Koala was really the first bitchy post in this thread, so you can't really say it is all our fault for just being mean bitches.

It was out of line and I do apologize to Koala for it, sincerely. But I've taken a lot more heat from some posters in this thread than I've ever given, including you.

[Guest Anonymous]

I really do want to know why the government was suddenly drug in as a response to things in the Bible. It makes absolutely no sense in my head. If you want to have an intellectual discussion, you have to provide answers that at least relate in some way to what people are saying. The government answer did not.

This.

I'll be honest and say I've not yet grasped what it is you want to discuss. Your OP seems to be based on an assumption that we all at FJ share a common concept of the Christian notion of "grace". Many of us don't, and shared views on the topic. And then you went off on an unrelated spiel about government. What exactly is it that surprises you that the thread then degenerated?

[Witsec7]

I'm not an Evangelical Friend. I'm a Liberal Friend and attend a liberal meeting.

Again I maintain that atheists do not believe in deities. Universalism isn't applicable to atheists since salvation presupposes a belief in an afterlife and a need for salvation.

[Sobeknofret]

This.

I'll be honest and say I've not yet grasped what it is you want to discuss. Your OP seems to be based on an assumption that we all at FJ share a common concept of the Christian notion of "grace". Many of us don't, and shared views on the topic. And then you went off on an unrelated spiel about government. What exactly is it that surprises you that the thread then degenerated?

I answered the government thing above.

Why the thread degenerated? Surprises me no end. I said upfront that I wasn't sure what I was thinking other than even by their notions fundies are missing the mark by so much. I was hoping someone could help clarify those thoughts. I was right in some ways, in that Burris and others have given me a lot to consider. I said right at the beginning I had no answers and I had no clear idea where I was going. But if you're just looking for an apologist for Christianity, count me out. I sure don't have all the answers and if I presented myself in that way, I'm truly sorry.

[formergothardite]

I'm not trying to sound dumb, but the government response still makes no sense to me, even after reading your explanation. You brought up that God asks his followers to do hard things, Koala responded with a couple of the really shitty hard things God asks in the Bible, and your response is "well governments do bad things too?" Everyone here knows that the Bible was used to govern a nation, and the people who are going to buy into the whole cheap grace/costly grace idea are going to view it as the divine word of God not just some humans who make fucked up decisions. So in the context of this discussion, comparing things in the Bible to government decisions made by sinful men (which is what you did) makes no sense.

"Were the examples you gave horrendous? Yes, they're terrible and horrible, and show no compassion. I shudder to think what would happen if we enacted those laws today. And, yet, it's what the fundies we snark on so much want for our country. I don't want a theocratic society, and neither does anyone else here. The problem is that they are so close to getting what they want in terms of a largely theocratic government,"

This does not at all in any way, shape or form sound like the response you gave Koala. If you had given this sort of response instead of going all bitchy (why did her post offend you so?) it would have made a hell of a lot more sense.

[salsa]

Oh nononono. I should definitely have been clearer in this: I admire Bonhoeffer. I just don’t agree with him in this notion that there can be cheap or costly grace.

All grace, being priceless, is costly - even for those dour legalists who treat it cheaply and worry over heartless minutia.

I believe all people will eventually be reconciled to the being which made us, regardless of what said individuals believe in life.

I also believe there is ample textual evidence in the Bible not only for this kind of universal reconciliation but also for the idea that every individual has within him or herself the much-cherished capacities for kindness and humility – two traits of such great value to God that the maker ensured we were all equipped with the choice to act on them:

2 Corinthians 3:3: "You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."

Some people will do deeds of compassion – and blessed are the atheists who do them with literally no hope of return – merely because their minds and hearts and capacity for empathy cause them to act for the sake of others. If any people at all are fit for a quick admission to whatever good the afterlife may hold, it is these.

Grace is for everyone regardless of works, and costly for everyone from the greatest philanthropist to the most vile religious hypocrite. The difference is not in that they will be reconciled into peace – they both will be - but in what manner: I humbly submit that deeds of compassion and not mere words (such as the oft-repeated sinners’ prayer) are the real litmus test for how each person is received and treated at judgment.

Sorry I misconstrued.

I agree with what you said (especially the parts I bolded). I like his distinction between cheap and costly grace, however. It's challenging. Of course, we want the costly type, but often feel like we can only afford the cheap.

[emmiedahl]

I think she was indeed trying to have an academic, theological discussion.

However, this is an interesting place to do it: among a group in which the majority of people do not believe in the need for Grace at all. Of course there will be questions regarding this. And then to bring evil governments into this, like God only needs to be nicer than Hitler or Stalin in order to be perfect.

Were the examples you gave horrendous? Yes, they're terrible and horrible, and show no compassion. I shudder to think what would happen if we enacted those laws today. And, yet, it's what the fundies we snark on so much want for our country. I don't want a theocratic society, and neither does anyone else here. The problem is that they are so close to getting what they want in terms of a largely theocratic government

And yet they were written by your perfect God as part of his inerrant word, which is why people are curious about whether you also believe the part about how we are all going to Hell.

[Sobeknofret]

Again I maintain that atheists do not believe in deities. Universalism isn't applicable to atheists since salvation presupposes a belief in an afterlife and a need for salvation.

They do not. But many atheists support the ideas and concerns behind the Friends, which in practical, real world terms plays out in terms of social justice issues. Because the Friends already have a network in place, some of the atheists in our meeting feel it's effective to work with the Friends Service Committee on those issues. For example, here, the committee is working on the acequia system, a network of historic irrigation waterways in the northern part of the state. Since many rural families depend on those acequia for their livelihood, we're working alongside the small farmers to keep them maintained and improve the system. We have lots of atheists working with the Committee because they believe in keeping the cultural and economic system working.

While none of us have any notions of "converting" the atheists or agnostics (we don't do preaching at all, we're an unprogrammed meeting) we generally do feel comfortable intellectually discussing religion and atheism with the folks in our group in informal settings. If someone's not comfortable talking about their atheism or their thoughts on religion, that's cool too.

[Witsec7]

They do not. But many atheists support the ideas and concerns behind the Friends, which in practical, real world terms plays out in terms of social justice issues../quote]

This is snipped for brevity and to remove self serving tangents. Atheists may in fact support liberal Friends, due to social justice issues. But I will maintain any 'atheist' that becomes a member of a religion that believes in 'salvation' isn't an atheist I understand that the FSC needs us liberals and progressives to move issues of social justice forward, but really just leave it at that. I'm sooo fucking tired of religionists defining atheism in manners that will benefit their religion and add to their body counts.

[emmiedahl]

Sobeknofret, the top question I have about your post is why we would need a sacrificial Grace in the first place?

Someone on the first page made a good point about God making us *on purpose* so imperfect that someone would need to be tortured so we would not deserve a lifetime of misery.

To share my own beliefs, I believe in some version of the Jewish God on most days, but that He made us pretty wonderfully and that we exist in a state of Grace as long as we are trying. As for the afterlife, who knows? But it will probably be better than here, and in the end we will be happy because God is good. I base this on the multiple comparisons of God to a parent. The Christian God, even the liberal Quaker version, is a really bad person, and saying that he at least is better than totalitarian governments does not do anything to improve my opinion of him.

[Sobeknofret]

I think she was indeed trying to have an academic, theological discussion.

However, this is an interesting place to do it: among a group in which the majority of people do not believe in the need for Grace at all. Of course there will be questions regarding this. And then to bring evil governments into this, like God only needs to be nicer than Hitler or Stalin in order to be perfect.

And yet they were written by your perfect God as part of his inerrant word, which is why people are curious about whether you also believe the part about how we are all going to Hell.

I don't believe in sola scriptura or the inerrancy of the Bible. It's a book ultimately written by human beings, for human beings, and we're subject to making horrendous mistakes, as evidenced by those passages Koala quoted above. They're awful, and we have to consider them in context: a society that was by necessity spread out looking for grazing land, and really connected only by a common religion. Herders looking for fresh grazing lands in an arid region with no substantial common center of government are susceptible to assimilation by other neighboring groups and religions. Perhaps those laws were enacted to reinforce the ties between those semi-nomadic groups. I remember reading somewhere, and I can't remember where off the top of my head, that the kosher dietary laws had nothing to do with food safety, e.g. eating pork to avoid parasites, but to reinforce the idea that the Hebrews were *unique,* and tie them together more closely through shared dietary traditions, which is a pretty common thing to do.

Hell is one of those areas I'm not sure about. I honestly don't think a literal lake of fire and a literal hell exist. I certainly don't believe that atheists and Buddhists/Muslims/Jews/non-Christians are going to hell. There's a lot of allegory and metaphor in the Bible, both OT and NT, and I automatically have always just assumed that "Hell" was a metaphor for no afterlife. I also assumed that "Heaven" was a metaphor too, but honestly, I don't know for certain and won't till I die :) I know someone brought up that their idea of what happens after death is oblivion, and honestly I could absolutely agree with that idea too. Heaven and Hell are weird ideas for me because I've always made so many assumptions about both, that I'm just now untangling some of those ideas and trying to get clarification on what it is exactly that I believe.