Fundie-lite and female education, careers

[YPestis]

This question is probably directed more towards those that know fundie-lite and mainstream conservatives personally. I've known a few growing up but most of my friends these days are not even close to the social conservative political spectrum.

We often complain about fundies and their contempt for female education. My question is, what about the fundie-lite and the mainstream conservatives? I'm thinking of people like those that send kids to Brigham Young University or Liberty University. They let daughters wear pants, may or may not engage in courtship, educate their kids in public schools, maybe read Harry Potter and certainly let them attend college.

What happens (hypothetically), if their daughter says she still wants a family but also want to be an engineer, lawyer, doctor? What if the daughter wants something that takes years to train for and not really transferable to good homemaking skills? Do the families go along and show pride in their daughters' achievements? Or gently dissuade their daughters from tougher professions that may require extra years of schooling? Logically, if families believe the girls' ultimate goal is marriage, then a college degree should suffice as a backup and not three more years of law school, right?

To take it a step further, what if said girl has been successful in school and now has a career that makes more than her husband? Say, hubby is a blah blah desk jockey, wife is successful attorney. What do fundie-lite families say if the couple is considering SAHD because of financial issue? Would they prefer wife give up her $90k/yr job and let hubby's $50k/yr job take over because a woman's place is in the home? Or will they nod their head that the more pragmatic thing is for the $90k/yr job to support a family of three rather than a $50k job?

I'm honestly curious because you often hear conservatives justify woman staying home by saying daycare costs eats up all of HER salary. Yet, what happens if the shoe is on the other foot and the husband's salary is not enough to pay for daycare but the wife's is? When financial concerns collide with traditional ideals of family, who wins out?

[luckystone]

I think the people who let their girls have proper education also let them and their husbands choose how they work out their finances, and they probably are at the stage of talking it out like a normal couple if they are at the stage where the woman has a career and can work. I don't think there's any rule on what they'd decide in the hypothetical you present.

There are some examples of highly religious bloggers where the women are well-educated. Anna from Maidens of Worth came from an educated family and she was the one fighting her parents about college (she didn't want to go, they did). Anyway her sister is an engineer. She got married comparatively late (late 20s I think?) and works part-time from home now she has a baby or two. Even though she's extremely religious, she gives me hope.

[batwing]

We used to have a fundie babysitter for our oldest son. I fired her ass when I went to pick up my 17 month old son and some other woman I had never met was watching him (her response, "it's OK, she's from my church!)

Anyway, she had a twin sister and she lived across the street. They became Pentecostal (of the no pants, no haircuts, no jobs variety) in their late teens. The one that watched my son married a total creep asshole right out of school and started popping out babies. Her twin didn't marry right away and went to the college. She became a fully degreed, licensed teacher. At the time she was finishing up her school she met a "godly man" (also a total fucking creep loser) and married him. Within a few months of getting married she slept with the pastor and became pregnant. She stayed with her husband AND remained in the same church even though everyone knew.

Anyway, her degree was finished within weeks of getting married and she never actually worked as a teacher. She registered as a substitute teacher, though. In the 17 months these people were in my life I never once heard of her taking a job when she was called to sub. She maintained her license though (I always hoped it was to escape but this was 7 years ago and she hasn't). Her husband worked some sort of construction and was out of work half the year for winter, and then claimed to be "injured" the other half. He could've stayed home with the daughter while she worked as a teacher, but instead they played the system. I guess that worked out better for them than to have her work, although if she had a steady job as a teacher should we presumably have insurance, retirement, and regular income.

Also, all of the children were homeschooled by our babysitter, including the teacher's daughter, and none of them were up to grade level. Instead of the teacher homeschooling her own child she just sat at home all day with her POS husband. The sister who did all the schooling wasn't cut out for it at all. First, if I understand the law right, you can't homeschool someone else's child in my state. Secondly, she would humiliate the children when they got questions wrong and yell at them. I was there one day when she was giving her daughter a spelling test, it was about a week before we left, and the way she SCREAMED at her seven year oldold daughter and told her she was an idiot made me sick to my stomach. They got a few calls to CPS around the time we left, but my understanding is nothing happened.

[FlorenceHamilton]

So my daughter is marrying the son of a Baptist minister (SBC). They consider themselves evangelical. They generally vote Republican and have political ties. (Shocking, I know that a minister is politically connected.) The young man's mother works full time in the public schools working with multiply handicapped children. I believe that she has two Masters degrees, one in speech pathology and one in special education. She dresses in what I would consider a modest way. She wears pants or skirts, depending on her mood, her clothing is stylish, well fitting and attractive. She never looks "sexy", although she is a very pretty lady. She is very professional and realistic in her job. She does not believe that god is going to magically cure these children. In fact, she often talks about how sad it is when the parents look for that kind of hope and she is unable to offer it.

Their son is their only child.

My daughter will be graduating from Medical School this spring. They are getting married 2 weeks after the graduation. There is a greater than 50% chance that my daughter will "match" in a residency that will force them to live apart for some time. They have prepared for this possibility and he is supportive of her need to accept the best Residency position she can get, even if it is far from his job.

It is interesting to me that the SBC has become a more moderate branch of Christianity. Whodathunk?

[thekate]

My daughter will be graduating from Medical School this spring. They are getting married 2 weeks after the graduation. There is a greater than 50% chance that my daughter will "match" in a residency that will force them to live apart for some time. They have prepared for this possibility and he is supportive of her need to accept the best Residency position she can get, even if it is far from his job.

Assuming she's in the US/Canada, she doesn't get to choose the best one she can get, she only gets one offer and she can accept it or not do a residency that year. She could try again the next year, but it's harder and harder to match the further out from graduation you are. (I know because my husband is in med school and is already stressing about it even though we're not at that point yet.) In a way that will probably make her decision easier because the only choice is to go or to defer being a doctor. But, she probably wouldn't see her husband much anyways even if they lived together! ;)

As for my experience with my fundie-lite acquaintance (fundie-lite meaning she wears pants, but very deliberately and loudly promised to obey at the wedding), she is college educated with a degree in computer science. She worked for several years making about $60-70K, but was financially supporting her parents' ministry and her younger sister. She did have her own apartment with her sister as a roommate. Was depressed about being single because there were no eligible men at her church until she met someone at the church ceilidh (shades of VF?) and 8 months later they married. He was a part-time college student who was working retail. She got pregnant almost immediately and quit working during her 8th month of pregnancy to be a SAHM. Now she's pregnant with her 2nd and they will be about 18 months apart. She wants 4-5 total. I think he's finished college (or at least stopped taking classes) so he's working more, but she was definitely the higher earner by quite a bit. And she complained that they were stuck in a crappy little apartment in a bad part of town.

Her brother, who is also "in the ministry" like their father, married a medical student. She graduated, finished her residency and a MPH. A year later, they went on a multi-year mission trip to Africa where she...isn't a doctor. You'd think that would be a great skill to bring on a mission trip, but no, she's a SAHM also. They have 3 biological kids and 2 adopted from Africa.

[AmyP]

Most fundie-lite and mainstream conservatives want their daughters to go to college or have some sort of career training after high school. Nursing and early childhood education are both popular choices. However, I've known two very conservative (one homeschooled, one from private christian school) girls who went on to become doctors. I know a few more (homeschooled girls) majoring in public health policy, sports medicine, physical therapy, and that sort of thing.

[MissA]

One of the technicians at my former workplace lived this scenario. I believe by FJ standards they were fundie-lites, though I try not to discuss such things at work. Certainly he was okay with working for me so at least he wasn't rabidly anti-working-woman. But they attended a teensy charismatic church, sent their kids to a christian school, and routinely tried to get me to join up with them so I assume some variety of evangelical.

Anyway, they married fairly late in life as these things go... early thirties. By which time wife had a Ph.D. in petroleum engineering. Husband had a high school diploma. He was an intelligent hardworking man but his earnings capacity was obviously significantly lower than hers.

And she'd been at home with their four kids since the first one was born, even though the youngest was now a young teenager. A woman's place, in their minds, was with her children if she had any.

[Lady_Catherine]

I grew up fundie-lite and was expected to go to college. I was not pushed into any particular path job-wise. I even went to a state college, not a Christian one! :)

To my parents, it was so I could take care of myself if I had to (ie: did not marry) or if my husband needed me to for some reason (lost a job.) It was never framed as a "you should have a career of your own that you enjoy." It was more of a backup plan.

I am thrilled that my parents expected that though, no matter the reason! I know other girls from my Christian high school who were expected to do to do the SAHD thing, and that just seemed stupid to me, even at the time when I was personally fundie-lite!

[FlorenceHamilton]

Assuming she's in the US/Canada, she doesn't get to choose the best one she can get, she only gets one offer and she can accept it or not do a residency that year. She could try again the next year, but it's harder and harder to match the further out from graduation you are. (I know because my husband is in med school and is already stressing about it even though we're not at that point yet.) In a way that will probably make her decision easier because the only choice is to go or to defer being a doctor. But, she probably wouldn't see her husband much anyways even if they lived together! ;)

As for my experience with my fundie-lite acquaintance (fundie-lite meaning she wears pants, but very deliberately and loudly promised to obey at the wedding), she is college educated with a degree in computer science. She worked for several years making about $60-70K, but was financially supporting her parents' ministry and her younger sister. She did have her own apartment with her sister as a roommate. Was depressed about being single because there were no eligible men at her church until she met someone at the church ceilidh (shades of VF?) and 8 months later they married. He was a part-time college student who was working retail. She got pregnant almost immediately and quit working during her 8th month of pregnancy to be a SAHM. Now she's pregnant with her 2nd and they will be about 18 months apart. She wants 4-5 total. I think he's finished college (or at least stopped taking classes) so he's working more, but she was definitely the higher earner by quite a bit. And she complained that they were stuck in a crappy little apartment in a bad part of town.

Her brother, who is also "in the ministry" like their father, married a medical student. She graduated, finished her residency and a MPH. A year later, they went on a multi-year mission trip to Africa where she...isn't a doctor. You'd think that would be a great skill to bring on a mission trip, but no, she's a SAHM also. They have 3 biological kids and 2 adopted from Africa.

I understand how the match works. (Having been through it myself) But she does get to make application to her preferred programs and choose where she interviews. She also gets to rank her preference. Then she gets matched. I did not want to get into details, but she has interviewed at MGH, already. Upcoming are Yale, Columbia, Penn and Johns Hopkins. None of those are in the same city as his job. He is supporting her excellence.

[thekate]

I understand how the match works. (Having been through it myself) But she does get to make application to her preferred programs and choose where she interviews. She also gets to rank her preference. Then she gets matched. I did not want to get into details, but she has interviewed at MGH, already. Upcoming are Yale, Columbia, Penn and Johns Hopkins. None of those are in the same city as his job. He is supporting her excellence.

Sorry, I misunderstood the phrasing. I know you rank where where you want to go, but in the end, a computer matches you to one program and it's take it or leave it. Even the Scramble isn't a scamble anymore...it's a second round of "match."

Good luck to your daughter! Those are some great places.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am holding my breath, but so far, these people are being very supportive of my daughter's choices. There was a little bit of stress when she refused to apply to a program that is not far from her in-laws. She stood by her decision and he accepted it. I think it is big evidence of how right shifted we have become that the Southern Baptist Convention are the moderate and mainstream group.

[Jana814]

I am holding my breath, but so far, these people are being very supportive of my daughter's choices. There was a little bit of stress when she refused to apply to a program that is not far from her in-laws. She stood by her decision and he accepted it. I think it is big evidence of how right shifted we have become that the Southern Baptist Convention are the moderate and mainstream group.

That is great that they r so supportive of your daughter. Also congrats to her for finishing medical school.

[Kitty]

Southern Baptists are not the moderate types you think they are. None of this would have been allowed in the SBC church I once went to. Any woman wanting to go into healthcare was going to be a nurse. If women had any other job it was supplementary to their husband's income, maybe enough to support themselves if they were not married. My mother was quite unpopular for earning more than my dad (among other reasons, like not having proper feminine interests and having male friends of her own). Two sisters I know from this same church got married early in college, the older one is a SAHM now after dropping out. I don't know about the other, but I suspect she's done the same (she went to Liberty, after all).

We'be already seen IFB churches that let their members wear pants and dance, but we shouldn't assume that SBCs are moderate. Baptists are big in individual churches being independent, so there's not necessarily any consensus in any Baptist denomination. Baptists in general value education for both sexes, but after high school us when you see the real difference.

[BravaAmica]

This question is probably directed more towards those that know fundie-lite and mainstream conservatives personally. I've known a few growing up but most of my friends these days are not even close to the social conservative political spectrum.

We often complain about fundies and their contempt for female education. My question is, what about the fundie-lite and the mainstream conservatives? I'm thinking of people like those that send kids to Brigham Young University or Liberty University. They let daughters wear pants, may or may not engage in courtship, educate their kids in public schools, maybe read Harry Potter and certainly let them attend college.

What happens (hypothetically), if their daughter says she still wants a family but also want to be an engineer, lawyer, doctor? What if the daughter wants something that takes years to train for and not really transferable to good homemaking skills? Do the families go along and show pride in their daughters' achievements? Or gently dissuade their daughters from tougher professions that may require extra years of schooling? Logically, if families believe the girls' ultimate goal is marriage, then a college degree should suffice as a backup and not three more years of law school, right?

To take it a step further, what if said girl has been successful in school and now has a career that makes more than her husband? Say, hubby is a blah blah desk jockey, wife is successful attorney. What do fundie-lite families say if the couple is considering SAHD because of financial issue? Would they prefer wife give up her $90k/yr job and let hubby's $50k/yr job take over because a woman's place is in the home? Or will they nod their head that the more pragmatic thing is for the $90k/yr job to support a family of three rather than a $50k job?

I'm honestly curious because you often hear conservatives justify woman staying home by saying daycare costs eats up all of HER salary. Yet, what happens if the shoe is on the other foot and the husband's salary is not enough to pay for daycare but the wife's is? When financial concerns collide with traditional ideals of family, who wins out?

Well, if a girl is coming from a family you describe, she's been hearing strict gender roles all her life. She wouldn't even consider majoring in a STEM field. She's maybe choose to be a science teacher or a nurse but not a doctor or an engineer. Because how would she stay home with her kids?

[lilwriter85]

I think with some fundie lite families they sometimes tend to deeply think about the future and finances more the hardcore fundies do. There was a fundie lite family that lived near my family when I was growing up. They attended a non-denominational church. They wanted a large family but only had 3 sons due to the wife having health problems and four miscarriages. The wife homeschooled the boys while doing accounting work for several businesses. She said that she felt that women should at least have some kind of backup plan for the families.

I have noticed the same thing with some Mormon mommy bloggers. They want to be or are currently SAHMs but they believe in having a degree as a sort of a backup plan. There is one Mormon blogger that I'm following right now. She is 25 and has two kids. She is currently in a community college and is planning to get an associate's degree in creative writing. She has said that some point she will go back to college to get a nursing degree. I hope that her family is secure finance wise before she goes back for a nursing degree. I don't worry too much about that blogger, the bloggers that I worry about the hardcore fundie types who have zero work experience or no post secondary education or vo training.

[Coconut Flan]

My fundie-lite neighbors sent their daughters to college. It was to smallish Christian liberal arts colleges and both had practical four year degrees with no thought to graduate school. I don't know if that was a push from the parents or the daughters' desires. One is a SAHM and the other is the main support of her family although her husband works as much as he can. He has a medical condition that limits his prospects.

They are pants wearing but modestly covered types. One daughter has decreed three children are enough and they are done. The other one is saying things like maybe we'll let God decide.

An interesting story, but I've lost my favorite real life pet fundie. She worked for me until she retired a few months ago about a year after getting a divorce. She had sayings like God's law not man's law all while following such laws of man as not drinking alcohol. She denounced gay marriage and all "unholy" activities. She even tried to chastise me for some of the novels that I read as being too racy and "stirring up desires."

I found out yesterday that she moved in with her new boyfriend. So much for all those church rules when they got in the way of what she wanted apparently. :clap: Word is they go to a liberal neighborhood church now. I hope she's truly happy. I think she began heading out of the fundie world over a dispute with Jim Garlow.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know many conservative Christians, but can tell you about Orthodox Jews and some traditional Indian families (Hindu, Sikh or Muslim).

We know many young women from these backgrounds in professional faculties. They tend to focus on careers that offer both decent pay, and a better work/life balance. For example, someone going into medicine may be more likely to choose to be a dermatologist than a surgeon. I know that tons of Orthodox Jewish women go into areas like speech and language pathology, occupational therapy, physiotherapy and graphic design.

[luckylibrarian]

I went to high school with some fundies and fundie-lites. The fundie girls who were long hair/skirts only either went on to an area Bible college to get their MRS degree or got married and pregnant right out of high school. One of my best friends was fundie lite. She wore her hair short and wore pants, but her parents practiced Pearl-style discipline even when their kids were well into their 20s. She ended up going to a skirts-only Baptist college and got a degree in social work. She was great in math and wanted to be an engineer, but her parents pushed her into something more "appropriate."

[maybeizfundie]

Honestly I think this is a cultural issue way more than a doctrinal/theological issue.

We go to a large urban fundie-lite church. Theologically very conservative. They'd probably consider "fundamentalist" a compliment, as they do hold to the fundamental theological points of Christianity. Socially very conservative (as far as marriage, abortion, etc goes, pro-Israel, stuff like that). Racially mixed, but majority African American. Politically mixed as well.

Anyhoo, with that background....In that church I am the oddball as a ft at-home mom. Now that I'm working (at home) a little, the other ladies seem a little better able to relate to me (I'm not crazy after all, I guess :lol: ). Education is a huge thing. And just looking at the demographics unscientifically, it seems like the girls are more likely to go and to complete college than the boys. There are businesswomen of all sorts, and female doctors, lawyers, and a judge and an upper level bank manager. Not counting the more "traditional" female jobs like teaching and nursing.

ETA: Because dh is an African immigrant, I have had that perspective opened up to me. When we meet African Christians, they tend to be *very* conservative on issues like marriage and abortion. But I haven't met one yet that doesn't want their daughter to go to college, excel in college, and have an impactful career along with getting married and having children.

[snarktastic]

We have a senior finance professional at my co who went to Liberty University. I'm not sure if she's still fundy-lite though (I'm assuming that you are fundy-lite if you go there in the first place?)

My sister had 2 Muslim friends who were pretty fundy (wore niqab etc) and they were qualified teachers - a lot of British Muslim women are very high achievers.

[Jinger Jar]

We have a senior finance professional at my co who went to Liberty University. I'm not sure if she's still fundy-lite though (I'm assuming that you are fundy-lite if you go there in the first place?)

My sister had 2 Muslim friends who were pretty fundy (wore niqab etc) and they were qualified teachers - a lot of British Muslim women are very high achievers.

In another lifetime I taught in Malaysia, and from what I experienced there even theologically conservative Muslim families highly value education. I taught niqabis who were studying for their MBAs, and no matter if they were single and living with their parents or were married with kids, they fully expected to have careers in international finance/banking/economics.

I think the fact that American uber-conservative Christians (don't know about fundys in other countries, sorry) tend to poo-poo formal education, especially formal education for girls/woman, is tied to the anti-intellectual streak that runs through American history and culture. You know, that don't need no book learnin' mentality.

[Kaylee]

In my experience, the man's job and the family ends up coming first even if that means living less because the woman gives up or holds back in her career because of this. I was raised pretty fundie and went to an IFB church of a type that was considered "extreme" by many of the more moderate IFBs. The idea was supposed to be large families with the woman at home - homeschoolers were considered great but sending your kids to a church school was also acceptable and encouraged. That said, several women in our church worked and it wasn't looked at as bad and most sent their kids to college even if it was to unaccredited Bible colleges. Our pastor had no problem with me being a correctional officer over male inmates and thought it was great that I had permission to wear a uniform skirt instead of pants.

Even though I was on my way out of fundiedom and probably leaning more towards fundie light when I got pregnant, there was really no doubt in my mind that I'd be giving up my job. Even though my husband was unemployed when we first found out, the focus was more on getting him a job we could live on rather than me planning maternity leave and him being a stay at home dad or even me going back to work. My job paid twice what his previous and current ones did and had better benefits and I had a second job that paid about what he made, but somehow it made more since to try to live on 1/4 of our previous income rather than to keep working or plan on hubby being a stay-at-home dad. I wonder if we would have done things differently if I had been raised differently.

[luckystone]

In another lifetime I taught in Malaysia, and from what I experienced there even theologically conservative Muslim families highly value education. I taught niqabis who were studying for their MBAs, and no matter if they were single and living with their parents or were married with kids, they fully expected to have careers in international finance/banking/economics.

I think the fact that American uber-conservative Christians (don't know about fundys in other countries, sorry) tend to poo-poo formal education, especially formal education for girls/woman, is tied to the anti-intellectual streak that runs through American history and culture. You know, that don't need no book learnin' mentality.

I think whoever said it was cultural more than religious is right - I know Christian and non-Christian fundies who are very educated and well-off even though they still hold ridiculously backwards beliefs about a lot of things. I think it depends on what's been common for their family and in their social group. There are also plenty (the majority?) who do not favour education.

[snarktastic]

Thinking about it - women's roles must also depend a lot on what's realistically financially possible where you live as well :lol:

In the US and Australia, you CAN get yourself a patch of land cheap, park a trailer on it, and have your own patriarchal-SAHD-megafamily setup. And actually quite a few of the bloggers show they can even do it in material comfort.

You just don't have that option in Bradford, UK or I'm guessing urban Malaysia either, the basic cost of living is too high. Also these Muslim families are part of a strong community that values achievement and education. So niquabis with teaching degrees / MBAs makes perfect sense - they might be religious but they still have to work.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thinking about it - women's roles must also depend a lot on what's realistically financially possible where you live as well :lol:

In the US and Australia, you CAN get yourself a patch of land cheap, park a trailer on it, and have your own patriarchal-SAHD-megafamily setup. And actually quite a few of the bloggers show they can even do it in material comfort.

You just don't have that option in Bradford, UK or I'm guessing urban Malaysia either, the basic cost of living is too high. Also these Muslim families are part of a strong community that values achievement and education. So niquabis with teaching degrees / MBAs makes perfect sense - they might be religious but they still have to work.

Agreed.

I don't think you can even just say that a view represents "American" culture. Southern or midwestern, largely non-ethnic white rural culture can be light years away from ethnic and/or urban culture. Many ethnic women come from backgrounds where it was simply never an option not to work. In many cases as well, the income earned by women could make the difference between a family living in a safe vs. unsafe area, in the quality of education available, in immigration status and in other absolutely vital ways to a family, that simply aren't factors if you are living on some rural land where your family has always lived.

Specifically with Middle Eastern, South Asian and East Asian immigrants, I find that the ones I'm most likely to know in Canada are the ones who made it to the top of a slippery pole. In other words - they are the ones who managed to get the advanced education and edge out the competition in order to succeed in immigrating and then finding careers here. In my experience, families like this tend to value education before everything else, EVEN if they are originally from a patriarchal culture. [This would describe the majority of my hubby's med school class.]