Yes, Lori, I do have problems with submission

[2xx1xy1JD]

lorialexander.blogspot.ca/

This is a good chance for me to summarize exactly why I have issues with submission:

1. My GOAL in raising my children is not to have them submit to me - it's to get them to the point that they can make their way independently and make good, moral decisions without needing my input. Until then, my kids have a developmental need to have the guidance of parents. The amount of control and responsibility that they have increases as they mature and show that they can handle it.

2. Since I live in a democracy, being a citizen isn't really all about submission. It's about being a part of larger society, agreeing to follow rules and accepting that limit on freedom as part of what is necessary to make any society function, participating in the democratic process so that I have input into the issues and leadership, participating in the justice system to ensure that the government is not acting beyond its authority, and participating in the media and/or activism to get people engaged, draw attention to important issues and make our views known. I don't believe in violent protest in functional democracies, but do believe in the idea of a social contract where the government essentially governs with the consent of the governed.

3. Yes, I do want my employees to follow my directions. Again, it is a trade-off. I have more of the financial risk, and can be held responsible for my employees' action. If the arrangement isn't working for an employee, they can leave. My authority is not unlimited - there are set expectations, along with obligations that I have to them.

4. A marriage is a unique relationship. A wife is not a child. A husband is not a ruler, nor is he an employer. Yes, it does take more work to have joint leadership, but that is precisely what a good marriage is all about. In Biblical terms, I'd say that there is a reason that it is not good for a human to be alone, and why we need to be with a partner who is on our level (remember the line about none of the animals being a fitting partner for Adam). In the Biblical/mystical sense, the idea is that the solitary First Being is divided into two, and that marriage unites these two halves of a whole. Input from both halves is necessary to be complete, and part of the Divine design is that there should be this dynamic where we learn to work with our spouse. In secular language - I believe that marriages are functional when both spouses don't just reluctantly tolerate their differences, but actually appreciate them and each can acknowledge that the other person brings something unique and valuable to the table. Engaging in the process of working together with our spouse and respecting the unique POV and talents of the other, instead of just doing everything ourselves, can ultimately make us better.

The analogy that I use in my own marriage is that of a car: my high-energy husband is the gas, while my cautious personality is the brake. [in some couples, it's the opposite.]

In the fundie model of marriage, my role would be to step back and bite my tongue, even if I see things speeding out of control, and then just pray my way through the crash.

Instead, our dynamic goes like this: I'll occasionally wonder "why can't he just slow down and chill?" Then, I remind myself that I really wouldn't want that, since the stuff that drives me crazy sometimes is also the same stuff that makes him great. So, instead of trying to take the gas out of the car, I focus on controlling it with just enough brake to stay in control and get where we need to go. That means that my JOB, as a decent wife, is sometimes to pull him aside as say, "let me help you calm down, because you are getting all wound up and going around in circles". At the same time, he recognizes that sometimes, we all need brakes, so he actually wants my help when things speed up too much and he's worried about crashing. At the same time, he also knows that as the one with the gas, he can get us all going, since I might not get moving on my own. This is how I've started to get up at 5 a.m. to go to the gym ever since we took out a membership together.

[Koala]

I read her post. Here's what kills me:

No, submitting to your husband isn't always easy but most husbands don't ask that much from their wives and most of them respect their wives' opinions. Men want and need respect, however, and one way of showing that is by doing what he asks you to do, the way he wants you to do it.

It usually isn't that big of a deal but we women, somehow, make it out to be a big deal and fight it.

Most husbands don't ask that much of their wives? Really? Well excuse me for saying so, but I think expecting another adult to "submit" to you is by default "asking too much". I'll go a step further and say that if your happiness as a person depends upon the unquestioning obedience from those around you, you have some real problems.

I also like that that she points out that men need respect (as if women don't) and the way to show that respect is by "doing what he asks you to do, the way he wants you to do it". Fuck that. No seriously, fuck that.

My husband and I respect each other greatly, and I think we would both think less of each other if one of us took such advice. I can't even imagine being in a relationship with an adult that just blindly followed whatever orders I barked out.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I read her post. Here's what kills me:

Most husbands don't ask that much of their wives? Really? Well excuse me for saying so, but I think expecting another adult to "submit" to you is by default "asking too much". I'll go a step further and say that if your happiness as a person depends upon the unquestioning obedience from those around you, you have some real problems.

I also like that that she points out that men need respect (as if women don't) and the way to show that respect is by "doing what he asks you to do, the way he wants you to do it". Fuck that. No seriously, fuck that.

My husband and I respect each other greatly, and I think we would both think less of each other if one of us took such advice. I can't even imagine being in a relationship with an adult that just blindly followed whatever orders I barked out.

It reminds me of the line from a Disney channel show: "I'm not a diva - I just want what I want, when I want it".

I'm not seeing how expecting your spouse to automatically follow your dictates indicates your respect for her as an adult with thoughts, feelings and needs of her own.

[lilwriter85]

Every institution has to have a leader in order for it to run smoothly. If there are two leaders, there are usually quarrels and strife. This is not a good thing and does not lead to peace which we are to pursue.

Quarrels and strife in general are apart of life, sometimes it doesn't matter if there is just one leader. There isn't a single institution that runs smoothly.

[Trynn]

Quarrels and strife in general are apart of life, sometimes it doesn't matter if there is just one leader. There isn't a single institution that runs smoothly.

Sometimes having 2 or more leaders is actually BETTER: one can see things the other can't. As long as they are respectful of each other, they will still make a great team.

And quarrels and strife are just going to happen in this world. They are a part of life. If someone submits just to avoid them, they are in for a whole heck of a lot more problems than if they'd just spoken up in the first place.

[dairyfreelife]

Quarrels and strife in general are apart of life, sometimes it doesn't matter if there is just one leader. There isn't a single institution that runs smoothly.

My thought was: Yes, and...

Who said life was supposed to be easy and peaceful all the time? Who said quarrels and strife were always bad? Anyone in close relationships will have quarrels. It happens because we're all different. Plenty of institutions run fine with two or more leaders. It takes compromise, understanding, working together and working out concerns and disagreements, but it's 100% possible. People do it everyday. You can love people and still have quarrels. I love my siblings, but we fought all the time growing up. My sister and I still quarrel at times over things, but for the most part, we are peaceful to one another. We were both leaders in some form or another.

It's not quarrels and strifes that are bad, it's the inability to learn how to handle them like reasonable adults that's the problem. The inability to be wrong or learn how to listen, try to understand and find a compromise is the problem. Of course, I don't expect Lori, who thinks consuming HCl is okay, lemons are alkaline and thinks vasectomies are bad because "where do the sperm go", to have any sort of reasonable common sense about how life works.

[Austin]

My thought was: Yes, and...

Who said life was supposed to be easy and peaceful all the time? Who said quarrels and strife were always bad? Anyone in close relationships will have quarrels. It happens because we're all different. Plenty of institutions run fine with two or more leaders. It takes compromise, understanding, working together and working out concerns and disagreements, but it's 100% possible. People do it everyday. You can love people and still have quarrels. I love my siblings, but we fought all the time growing up. My sister and I still quarrel at times over things, but for the most part, we are peaceful to one another. We were both leaders in some form or another.

It's not quarrels and strifes that are bad, it's the inability to learn how to handle them like reasonable adults that's the problem. The inability to be wrong or learn how to listen, try to understand and find a compromise is the problem. Of course, I don't expect Lori, who thinks consuming HCl is okay, lemons are alkaline and thinks vasectomies are bad because "where do the sperm go", to have any sort of reasonable common sense about how life works.

I think conflict "done right" is very healthy!

I'm dealing with this right now because my eldest son's girlfriend gets very upset and almost panicky if people have any conflict. We are often a loud, opinionated family. We debate, we argue, we persuade, we persist, we table and come back again. We discuss it ALL and I can't think of a topic that's off-limits.

I really don't like that she's feeling uncomfortable and I've tried to reassure her repeatedly that it has nothing to do with her and there's nothing to worry about. Her parents are divorced and apparently argued a lot when she was a child and so I understand where she's coming from, and I'm sure it can be very intimidating. But it is very hard to change the way a whole family relates to one another, especially if it's working for them. I don't know how to convince her that conflict is not always bad and it doesn't have to be ugly or destructive.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think conflict "done right" is very healthy!

I'm dealing with this right now because my eldest son's girlfriend gets very upset and almost panicky if people have any conflict. We are often a loud, opinionated family. We debate, we argue, we persuade, we persist, we table and come back again. We discuss it ALL and I can't think of a topic that's off-limits.

I really don't like that she's feeling uncomfortable and I've tried to reassure her repeatedly that it has nothing to do with her and there's nothing to worry about. Her parents are divorced and apparently argued a lot when she was a child and so I understand where she's coming from, and I'm sure it can be very intimidating. But it is very hard to change the way a whole family relates to one another, especially if it's working for them. I don't know how to convince her that conflict is not always bad and it doesn't have to be ugly or destructive.

Ditto.

In my family, expressing opinions and disagreement was a normal and natural thing. I've had trouble when I encountered people who interpreted any disagreement with them as some sort of disloyalty, disrespect, judgment against them or personal attack.

[RosyDaisy]

Most husbands don't ask that much of their wives? Really? Well excuse me for saying so, but I think expecting another adult to "submit" to you is by default "asking too much". I'll go a step further and say that if your happiness as a person depends upon the unquestioning obedience from those around you, you have some real problems.

[Arete]

The family that doesn't disagree or argue together doesn't survive. If you don't do the first no new ideas or ways of doing/looking at things come into the family and adaptation doesn't happen. If you don't do the second you can wind up with life long passive-aggressive guerilla wars and future generations have have defective blueprints for future families, which will fail.

[JeanneD]

I guess my husband is the odd one because he wanted to marry a grown up complete with opinions, ideas and feelings. I guess Lori thinks he would have preferred a helpless little girl? This fixation on submission, obedience and innocence has these ugly overtones of pedophilia. It is horrific.

[rock_girl]

The silliest thing about this 'men require respect therefore women must submit' argument that Lori and her fellow twits like make, is that it is so utterly patronising. Respect is not something you just get, it's earned. People who want respect from others understand that it's a two-way street. If you want to be respected, treat others well, behave with integrity, and expect that despite your best efforts, some people are just pricks. But the poor widdle men that Lori talks about are so pathetic and insecure that they need their wives to pat them on the head while saying "I respect you, baby, oh yeah, you are the most respected headship in the entire world!". Wtf? Why would a woman marry such a loser? Weird.

[BabyFullOfSin]

Wonderfully said!

[jaynie]

The silliest thing about this 'men require respect therefore women must submit' argument that Lori and her fellow twits like make, is that it is so utterly patronising. Respect is not something you just get, it's earned. People who want respect from others understand that it's a two-way street. If you want to be respected, treat others well, behave with integrity, and expect that despite your best efforts, some people are just pricks. But the poor widdle men that Lori talks about are so pathetic and insecure that they need their wives to pat them on the head while saying "I respect you, baby, oh yeah, you are the most respected headship in the entire world!". Wtf? Why would a woman marry such a loser? Weird.

In fairness the entire patriarchy movement makes men sound like overgrown children. They can't control their lust if they see a woman's knees, they can't cook, clean, or care for kids, they can't be trusted to have their own rooms or live on their own as adults unless they're married, they're "natural leaders" with such fragile egos that if a woman dares disagree with them they fall apart -- really, if I thought all men were as christian patriarchy describes them, I'd be looking for a sexuality conversion program to turn me INTO a lesbian. It's not surprising that people like Lori would think an insincere and undeserved little show of "respect" would appease the mighty penis, since apparently we aren't talking about men capable of a minutes worth of rational thought.

[Austin]

In fairness the entire patriarchy movement makes men sound like overgrown children. They can't control their lust if they see a woman's knees, they can't cook, clean, or care for kids, they can't be trusted to have their own rooms or live on their own as adults unless they're married, they're "natural leaders" with such fragile egos that if a woman dares disagree with them they fall apart -- really, if I thought all men were as christian patriarchy describes them, I'd be looking for a sexuality conversion program to turn me INTO a lesbian. It's not surprising that people like Lori would think an insincere and undeserved little show of "respect" would appease the mighty penis, since apparently we aren't talking about men capable of a minutes worth of rational thought.

I've always that that in addition to the grave damage that patriarchy does to women, it also does men a huge disservice. People, including fundies, like to complain how television tends to portray men as bumbling boobs led around by their penises, but that whole narrative is one that has its roots in patriarchy.

[valsa]

I guess my husband is the odd one because he wanted to marry a grown up complete with opinions, ideas and feelings. I guess Lori thinks he would have preferred a helpless little girl? This fixation on submission, obedience and innocence has these ugly overtones of pedophilia. It is horrific.

If not for the religion issue, I think a lot of these Patriarchy assholes would feel right at home in middle eastern countries that have a lot of child brides. I think a lot of them hate that their wives weren't pure little virginal innocents when they married them (many of the old school generation of QF had women with fairly wild pasts, though now that the first generation raised in the movement is starting to marry, this is lessening) I just find it very, very creepy that it feels like these fathers basically raised their daughters to be like the women they wish they could have married- never had sex with another man, brainwashed from birth to think anything with a penis is basically a stand-in for God, etc.

[Jana814]

If not for the religion issue, I think a lot of these Patriarchy assholes would feel right at home in middle eastern countries that have a lot of child brides. I think a lot of them hate that their wives weren't pure little virginal innocents when they married them (many of the old school generation of QF had women with fairly wild pasts, though now that the first generation raised in the movement is starting to marry, this is lessening) I just find it very, very creepy that it feels like these fathers basically raised their daughters to be like the women they wish they could have married- never had sex with another man, brainwashed from birth to think anything with a penis is basically a stand-in for God, etc.

I agree with this but in Middle Eastern Countries this unfortually is the norm however in America its not so when other see this either on TV, or read in blogs they r bothered, by this idea I know I am.

[lilwriter85]

The silliest thing about this 'men require respect therefore women must submit' argument that Lori and her fellow twits like make, is that it is so utterly patronising. Respect is not something you just get, it's earned. People who want respect from others understand that it's a two-way street. If you want to be respected, treat others well, behave with integrity, and expect that despite your best efforts, some people are just pricks. But the poor widdle men that Lori talks about are so pathetic and insecure that they need their wives to pat them on the head while saying "I respect you, baby, oh yeah, you are the most respected headship in the entire world!". Wtf? Why would a woman marry such a loser? Weird.

I agree with all this especially the part about respect being a two way street. Fundies twits like Lori don't see and never will. Lori always tries to make her husband out to be a good man in a lot of her posts and to her and fundie twits they think he is, but some people outside of fundie land see that he and Lori are both assholes. I still find it scary that Lori and Ken mentor couples through their church.

[Swamptribe]

Teaching 'submission' in the way fundies do is a very very bad thing. Ok, know I'm preaching to the choir here but give me a second to outline why I see this as such a bad thing.

I have raised three small children, and have taught preschool. One of my pet peeves when around kids was parents, or people who insisted the child had to kiss, hug or touch someone or something that made that child uncomfortable. I don't care if it's Grandma or a tarantula a child should have a say in who or what touches, or is touched by them. Actually got into an argument with a zookeeper once because he insisted all the children in my group had to touch the snake he was showing them so they wouldn't be afraid. I told him that if they didn't want to touch it, they didn't have to. Why? Because children need to know that they do have control over their bodies, over what or who can touch their bodies. Otherwise, you are simply setting the up for future abuse. If they are uncomfortable with something, they should say so.

Submission, as these Christian fundies often teach is, is setting women, and children up to be abused. If you cannot say no to an authority, then you have lost control over your body, and even your own mind. Fundies ideas of submission take this control away from individuals and hand it over to some arbitrary authority. It is a horrific example of a group trying to maintain control of others using fear and guilt.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Teaching children that they have to submit completely to their parents and obey without question, and then that women should submit completely to their husbands is wrong.

Youre right, I dont like it when adults make their children give hugs when they really dont want to, as children need to understand that their body belongs to them.

It would be way too easy for a woman raised fundie to end up in an abusive relationship, and way easy for someone to abuse a fundie child, as they are taught that they must do what they are told without question. I remember reading (think it was on Razing Ruth) about some creeper asking two kids from fundie families to kiss eachother for their own sexual enjoyment, and they did it because they were told that they must obey authority unquestioningly. This is especially bad thinking of all of the stories of pedophile priests, and also the various teen girls that claimed that Gothard acted innapropriately towards them.

It manages to be sexist towards both women and men-women because theyre not given rights or allowed to make decisions, men because theyre treated like theyre always one quick glimpse of a womans knee from raping people.

[holierthanyou]

I agree with this but in Middle Eastern Countries this unfortually is the norm however in America its not so when other see this either on TV, or read in blogs they r bothered, by this idea I know I am.

Seriously???

[2xx1xy1JD]

Seriously???

The Middle East is made up of many countries, each with their own culture and laws.

Child marriage IS a concern, however, in countries such as Yemen.

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/ ... load_0.pdf

I have also noticed some similarities with the "culture of honor" aspects of both some Middle Eastern cultures and the American fundie/patriarchal culture.

[valsa]

Seriously???

You'll note that I specified only the middle eastern countries that have a problem with child marriages (of which there are several- Yemen being the worst with 32% of girls being married before 18, but places like Palestine (19%), Egypt (17%), Iraq (17%), and Morcocco (16%) have serious issues with it as well)

[NoQuiverNoCry]

I read her post. Here's what kills me:

....

My husband and I respect each other greatly, and I think we would both think less of each other if one of us took such advice. I can't even imagine being in a relationship with an adult that just blindly followed whatever orders I barked out.

There'd be zero respect (mutual or personal) for either partner in that scenario. I don't understand why fundies aspire to dysfunction when there are so many better options available. I know they don't see it that way, but "problems with submission" is one of their most frequent blog topics. Rather than admit it's abnormal and messed up, they just keep talking about different ways to think about and promote a dangerous and unhealthy philosophy.

[JeanneD]

Submission, as these Christian fundies often teach is, is setting women, and children up to be abused. If you cannot say no to an authority, then you have lost control over your body, and even your own mind. Fundies ideas of submission take this control away from individuals and hand it over to some arbitrary authority. It is a horrific example of a group trying to maintain control of others using fear and guilt.

Well said. This is some seriously troubling and dangerous theology that allows abusers free reign.