Fundies in the city

[Kitty]

Most of the fundies we snarl on here live in what could be described as "middle of fucking nowhere." The Duggars live in a small town in Arkansas, the Bateseseses live in a really backwater part if Tennessee, and the Maxwells even live out of the way (as far as I know, but the location of all the Maxwell homes indicates to me that they live at least a little out of the way). There's several fundie bloggers out in rural Alaska, Texas, North Carolina, etc. Point is, there is something about the country that attracts fundies, or something about fundamentalism that attracts the rural folk. Or both.

So many fundies live in the sticks that it seems like they HAVE to live out there. But we know that there are fundies in the cities, like New York. There was one former fundie on NLQ who lived in Norfolk, Virginia, which does not have rural bits like the nearby "cities" of Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, and Suffolk (they're really more like counties). How can someone live the prescribed fundy life in a city? Do the rural fundies look down on them? It's something that I can't put together at all. It's far easier to isolate and shelter your women and children out in the sticks, isn't it?

[Peas n carrots]

I live in Chicago proper, and I have lots of fundies in my neighborhood, only they are Orthodox Jews.

I think rural areas are bastions of traditional culture. The areas you named have few minorities, and are culturally homogenous. I imagine a city would force them to confront a lot of different types of ideas and people that would cause them to question their belief system.

That's just my theory anyways. But as my local example shows, fundies are not limited to rural areas.

[Petronella7]

Most of the fundy quiverfull families could not afford to live in a major city even if they wanted to, as the cost of living is too high and their incomes and employment prospects are too low. You can't support a wife and 7 children in New York with a storefront ministry. You can't "buy a house with cash" in San Francisco at the age of twenty on a construction worker's income.

[valsa]

I think part of it is isolation- racially/ethnically, religiously, and politically.

Another part is cost. The Duggar house is something like 7000 sq ft. Can you imagine how much more it would cost to have the same house and land in, say, New York or California?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Ultra-Orthodox Jewish life really requires a setting where people live fairly close together, since there needs to be a synagogue within walking distance, a supplier of kosher food, religious schools, etc. There are a handful of small rural Orthodox communities (mostly in Israel, although there are some summer-only communities in the country here as well), and a few planned Orthodox suburban communities (Kiryas Yoel in New York was built for the Satmar Hasidic community, while the Spring Farm area of Thornhill, just north of Toronto, was built for a general Orthodox population and has a range of groups and observance).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York

http://books.google.ca/books?id=OAY7wbR ... um&f=false

Within cities, the isolation is more social as opposed to physical. Kids go to private Jewish schools, there's a lot of time spent at the nearby synagogue, shopping is done at stores that service the community, there are youth organizations and camps for the community and people tend to socialize together. People may take public transit or work in the city, but the main interactions are within the community.

[RationalSquirrel]

It's possible to be a fundie, in the city but it would be very, very difficult.

I live in San Francisco, and my in laws are fundies of (I think) the Baptist variety . My M and FIL live far away in a rural area, but my SIL lives nearby in a suburb. She and he husband moved here years ago for him to find better work. As soon as he did, he left her and their 2 kids. As a result she isn't especially welcome at any of the few fundie churches in the Bay Area. My M and FIL support her, but aren't happy about it. She won't work because, as she sees it, her job is to be a mother. She refuses to move and basically demands that my in laws support her. She's not on any public assistance either because, at least in our area, for able healthy people, public assistance is temporary and contingent on participating in free job training or other programs designed to get people off of public assistance and back to work. And there are caseworkers monitoring progress. My SIL already feels that the kids school is too nosy.

Her kids are in a regular public high school, but she manages to isolate them as much as possible, sometimes keeping them from school for long stretches when she thinks they're falling under bad influences. They have no friends and literally spend every minute not at school with my SIL at home. They're picked up and dropped off from school and they're not allowed to walk alone three blocks to the library. They're not even allowed to be alone with my husband and me. I think that in rural areas if kids are not with their family, they're alone, which is suppose is better than encountering an evil defrauding slut at school or on your way to the library?

Child protective Services is probably another reason the there aren't more fundies in urban or suburban areas. There are more people to see questionable parenting and call the authorities. I know that CPS is a big pain in my SIL's ass, but as long as they go to school, technically nothing she's doing is illegal.

Also in urban and suburban areas there is more cultural diversity to lead god's soldiers astray. My SIL has a condescending "noble savage" view of non-Northern European descended, non-fundie people. And amazingly the kids have the same attitude, despite the diversity at the school they attend.

So I guess my SIL is managing to be fundie in the city.

[yetanothermeg]

I live in Chicago proper, and I have lots of fundies in my neighborhood, only they are Orthodox Jews.

Ok, I live in the city too and I admit to cruising your neighborhood on a Saturday trying to decipher the different orthodox groups. The style of dress is so different. Some people are very colorful, others wear somber colors. And what is with the women in the turbans?

[rock_girl]

I love the fundie Jews. No pressure to convert from them!

My beautiful suburb in which I spent a great deal of my childhood and where I learned that no, not everyone gets to have stuff and go places, and we pay our bloody taxes so that these children at least have the chance to achieve what their parents couldn't, was colonised by a fundie megachurch. They built a great big barn, painted it blue and started carting in teenagers by the busload each Friday night. Scumbags. They try and convert the local poor people, but bless them, the local poor people are just not that into fundieism.

As far as I'm concerned fundies need to stay far away from the city and go back to the suburban outskirts where they belong.

[YPestis]

I used to question this link between fundies and rural living. There's a few reasons that connect the two:

1. People in small, rural areas are not exposed to as much diversity so they tend to be more conservative. That environment can result in a few people who go off the fringe. It's harder to decide to go fundie and hate gays when you live among gays.

2. It's cheaper to raise a quiverful in the sticks than near large cities. You want a dozen children on one income? Housing is cheaper in the boonies!

3. People who want to go fundie have this "off the grid" mentality---i.e less government is better. It's the same mentality that favors self-employment. The fundie/quiverful idea attracts those that are interested in living like some mythical frontiersman where every man is his own king. Government is inherently incompetent and nosy. Only good values are old values. No man should be under another man blah blah. It's harder to replicate that bootstrap, frontiersman ideal in a large city or suburb than in the middle of nowhere.

[PennySycamore]

I had the privilege of spending the weekend recently in a Jewish enclave of Silver Spring, Maryland. I think most of the residents are Modern Orthodox, including the meeting hostess and her family. I saw no one that appeared to be Ultra Orthodox. I stayed overnight at the home of another Modern Orthodox family who were relatives of another Board member. Anyway, I'd had no idea that this neighborhood existed. My husband grew up nearby and I've been just a block or two away many times.

On Friday night, I did notice that many homes had more lights on than usual. Of course, some lamps were left on. It was the Sabbath and lights could not be turned back on until the Sabbath was over.

[mrs]

I had the privilege of spending the weekend recently in a Jewish enclave of Silver Spring, Maryland. I think most of the residents are Modern Orthodox, including the meeting hostess and her family. I saw no one that appeared to be Ultra Orthodox. I stayed overnight at the home of another Modern Orthodox family who were relatives of another Board member. Anyway, I'd had no idea that this neighborhood existed. My husband grew up nearby and I've been just a block or two away many times.

On Friday night, I did notice that many homes had more lights on than usual. Of course, some lamps were left on. It was the Sabbath and lights could not be turned back on until the Sabbath was over.

I work in Silver Spring, and used to reside there prior to getting married. Did you go to Goldbergs Deli? Best bagels outside of NYC. :)

ETA: What is the difference between Ultra Orthodox and Modern Orthodox? Spending a great deal of time in the area, I observe many of the women wearing "head coverings" and modest clothing. The men do not wear the "Orthodox" uniform.

[PennySycamore]

I work in Silver Spring, and used to reside there prior to getting married. Did you go to Goldbergs Deli? Best bagels outside of NYC. :)

I didn't get the chance. I'll have to keep Goldberg's in mind next time I'm in the area.

ETA: I think Modern Orthodox men will be more likely to kippot rather than hats. They may have beards, but no side curls. (Young MO men may be clean shaven. See The Maccabeats.) All married Orthodox women are likely to cover their hair, but Ultra Orthodox women will be even more modest. Both Modern Orthodox women I was around that weekend just wore ordinary hats: one wore a beret and the other woman wore a newsboy style cap. I can't imagine a Chasidic woman covering her hair like that. I could be wrong about most of this though.

[dawn9476]

Cities or big towns are also where the best colleges tend to be. Education seems to be really important to orthodox Jews. That's why you will see a lot of them in big cities like NYC and Chicago. At least that is what I got on the special Oprah did about orthodox Jews. I think the mother with the large family in that special had her masters. The twenty something girl featured, who had just got engaged, was working as a teacher in a school so you know she at least had her Bachelor's.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I work in Silver Spring, and used to reside there prior to getting married. Did you go to Goldbergs Deli? Best bagels outside of NYC. :)

ETA: What is the difference between Ultra Orthodox and Modern Orthodox? Spending a great deal of time in the area, I observe many of the women wearing "head coverings" and modest clothing. The men do not wear the "Orthodox" uniform.

Orthodox is a large umbrella, basically referring to Jews who believe in divine revelation of both the Written Law (Torah) and Oral Law (Talmud).

Modern Orthodox is a sub-category of Orthodox. The philosophy is that they are still committed to keeping traditional Jewish law, but also believe that there is value in being part of the wider world. Both religious and secular education are valued. Advanced degrees and professional qualifications are valued. In terms of dress, Modern Orthodox will follow Jewish law (no linen/wool blends, head coverings for men, a ritual garment called tzitzit worn under the shirt for men, no low-cut or sleeveless tops for women, legs covered to the knees). For married women, there is some sort of hair covering, but practices vary. Some Modern Orthodox are strict about covering all hair in public, while some will just cover some of the hair (using a hat or bandana) while saying prayers or in a religious setting. Within those parameters, there is room for individual variation.

Hasidic groups, with the exception of Chabad Lubavitch, tend to be quite insular. Some of the ultra-Orthodox non-Hasidic groups that tend to be associated with specific yeshivas (sort of the religious equivalent of universities) can be fairly insular as well. Media use is restricted - no movies, no TV, no People magazine, only internet use for work purposes and with a filter, and they may even read only their own censored newspapers. In addition to basic Jewish law, these groups tend to follow the particular customs of their own group, and any additional rules or guidance provided by the leaders of the various groups. Some of the outfits worn may reflect stuff that was worn in a particular part of Poland a couple of hundred years ago. Outfits can serve as a form of identification for different sub-groups. Unlike Modern Orthodox, higher secular education is not valued, and is discouraged. Some vocational training may be okay, but not attending secular universities and studying general arts.

[Mary C Doates]

I live in the 'burbs north of NYC, where there is a Hassidic enclave originally established as a self-sustaining agricultural community. The community and Yeshiva still exist (not sure that the farm still does), and famlies associated with it live in town as well as on the property. There was apparently considerable opposition to it--It's Westchester! Think of the property values!--but the general response now seems to be "meh". While the members shop at local stores, use the local medical group, and go to to the local parks, interactions are generally friendly but brief. The settlement property is just on the edge of town, so not as immediately visible or as large as, say, Kiryas Joel.

We do have at least one fundie family of the Christian persuasion in town, who I happened to meet at the public pool. Wholesome Wear clad, 7-8 kids (siblings--they all called the harried woman accompanying them "mom"), praying before entering pool/before and after the lunch they brought/when getting on their van to leave. People seemed a lot more perturbed by them than by the Orthodox kids playing at the playground next door.

[maybeizfundie]

The Pearl's definitely look down on city-dwellers. I think some others do. Homesteading and "prepping" is the "holy" route.

However, it's not *that* hard to live an insular life in the city. Even for people who don't have a community around them (like Orthodox Jews).

I think the country living thing is more of a culture thing. Fundamentalism comes in all kinds of forms, it isn't monolithic in this way. One of our tenants belongs to an urban Holiness church that has only African American members, is QF (anti-birth control), and is dresses/skirts only for the women.

Our homeschooling co-op is pretty diverse in terms of the form our faith takes and what part of the city we come from. For some of the families the group is the only social outlet besides church. They manage to live very closed lives. Although religion is one part, health/food allergies seems to be a very common excuse for not hanging out with others.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I should add that plenty of other ethnic fundies are urban. The Muslim population here is overwhelmingly urban. As well, the evangelical Christians that I do see in Toronto tend to be ethnic (often Black or Filippino). Ethnic groups here tend to live in highly concentrated neighborhoods in urban or suburban areas.

[PennySycamore]

Thanks for your reply, 2xx1xy1jd! You know so much more about this than I, a mere shiksa, do.

Btw, the hostess of our meeting has a PhD in biochemistry or microbiology.

[Jana814]

I live in the 'burbs north of NYC, where there is a Hassidic enclave originally established as a self-sustaining agricultural community. The community and Yeshiva still exist (not sure that the farm still does), and famlies associated with it live in town as well as on the property. There was apparently considerable opposition to it--It's Westchester! Think of the property values!--but the general response now seems to be "meh". While the members shop at local stores, use the local medical group, and go to to the local parks, interactions are generally friendly but brief. The settlement property is just on the edge of town, so not as immediately visible or as large as, say, Kiryas Joel.

We do have at least one fundie family of the Christian persuasion in town, who I happened to meet at the public pool. Wholesome Wear clad, 7-8 kids (siblings--they all called the harried woman accompanying them "mom"), praying before entering pool/before and after the lunch they brought/when getting on their van to leave. People seemed a lot more perturbed by them than by the Orthodox kids playing at the playground next door.

I think people would be more perturbed by the Fundi Christians then by the Orthodox Jews is because most Orthodox Jewish people stick to themselves and do not try and convert people, also many of them have been Orthodox for years and the laws that they follow are hundreds of years old. Where as Fundie Christians right try and change a person, and ask a total stranger if they know if they are going to go Heaven, and Orthodox Jew would not!

[Guest Anonymous]

In isolation it's harder for anyone to watch over you, so you can mistreat your wife and kids in peace, and because you usually can't afford to raise so many people on a paltry single income in more populated areas.

[famof4]

The Maxwell family lives in Leavenworth KS. Their church is in Lansing KS. Both places are part of the Kansas City metropolitan area.

Interesting note about both places are they both have correction facilities.

Leavenworth has the United States Penitentiary, a maximum security federal facility until 2005. In 2005, it was down graded to a medium security federal facility.

Lansing has the Lansing Correction facility, formally called Kansas State Penitentiary. It is a state maximum security facility.

[Witsec7]

The Maxwell family lives in Leavenworth KS. Their church is in Lansing KS. Both places are part of the Kansas City metropolitan area.

Interesting note about both places are they both have correction facilities.

Leavenworth has the United States Penitentiary, a maximum security federal facility until 2005. In 2005, it was down graded to a medium security federal facility.

Lansing has the Lansing Correction facility, formally called Kansas State Penitentiary. It is a state maximum security facility.

And this is news because? :roll:

[famof4]

I was stating that they live within what is considered the largest metro area in the state of Kansas.

The others were just interesting facts. I never pictured the Maxwell living near a penitentiary. I pictured them to afraid to live near one.

[Witsec7]

I was stating that they live within what is considered the largest metro area in the state of Kansas.

The others were just interesting facts. I never pictured the Maxwell living near penitentiary. I pictured them to afraid to live near one.

Many metro areas have sections that are low density housing in areas that appear almost rural. Heck EL Lay does.

As to prisons, it's not like these folks are allowed out of the house without their accountability partners. The Maxwell tykes live in a world that is created by Steve, he will spin the signs for the prisons however it suits his motivations.

[famof4]

Maybe he spins the near by prisons to keep his subjects, I mean his family, in fear so they stay subject to him and so they don't think going out alone is okay.

Question does he always have an accountability partner when he goes out?