Miscarriage and "abortion" terminology

[maybeizfundie]

It doesn't even have to be an issue of shame. Whatever the reasons behind it, the term comes with a connotation of deliberation and choice. There is none of that with miscarriage, which maybe why it strikes some as difficult to see/hear in reference to themselves, even if they are pro-choice.

[Three and Done]

It doesn't even have to be an issue of shame. Whatever the reasons behind it, the term comes with a connotation of deliberation and choice. There is none of that with miscarriage, which maybe why it strikes some as difficult to see/hear in reference to themselves, even if they are pro-choice.

Very well stated.

I CHOSE to have an abortion.

I NOT choose to have a miscarriage.

I fully support the right of any female to have an abortion for any reason if they choose to do so.

[Alecto]

Very well stated.

I CHOSE to have an abortion.

I NOT choose to have a miscarriage.

I fully support the right of any female to have an abortion for any reason if they choose to do so.

Still, that reaction does nothing but shame women who have had abortions.

[marmalade]

Still, that reaction does nothing but shame women who have had abortions.

Liberals need someone like that Luntz character in their corner who has the power to change the linguistics in a way that the connotation of words like "abortion" or others that the right-wing have corrupted is changed. Without the platform of liberal radio or a devoted news station like Faux News, it's nearly impossible to put a dent into the discourse.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think it is meant to shame women who had an abortion. It is painful to lose a pregnancy without any control over the matter. So when you hear a term that is generally applied to a choice, you have a reaction. The implication is that you *did* something. If you wanted the pregnancy, that is not a welcome implication. It does not mean that a woman who chooses an elective abortion has done something wrong or shameful, merely that it implies choice at a time when choice has been taken away. At least that is what I meant.

Abortion is a loaded word. That is not a reflection on women who choose abortion, but a reflection on a society that has a real vendetta against any kind of reproductive autonomy.

[Minerva]

I should clarify my post a bit.

This isn't a current, personal paranoia.

It was something that was on my mind 14 years ago, when I had my first miscarriage. Several things were happening around the same time. First, I was quite traumatized by the miscarriage itself, which was diagnosed when I was in my 17th week and thought that I was past any danger point. Second, I was reading about the murder of Dr. Slepian while I was in the hospital. That murder had occurred less than 2 weeks prior, and Buffalo is not far from Toronto. Third, I was dealing with a crazy client at the time, who was constantly twisting information (including medical information) in the worst possible way when it came to making allegations against his ex. This individual was also portraying himself as pro-life and as a staunch Christian, while in reality being a crazy, hateful, sexist and abusive guy. There had been a previous act of craziness that resulted in a SWAT team being involved. He scared the living shit out of me. Fourth, a law school classmate of mine was murdered, along with her husband, in her own bed less than 2 weeks later.

When I returned to work, crazy client had put in a request for a new lawyer. I readily agreed, citing "medical reasons". The Legal Aid director called me, since she knew I loathed the file, to make sure that this was legit. I told her the full story, but made her promise to keep the details confidential, as I had crazy visions of this guy wanting to see my medical records to confirm that I really had a medical emergency, and then engaging in some sort of anti-abortion terrorism.

Every so often, I try to process some of my thoughts and feelings from that time, and ask myself, "did I go crazy?" Today, I readily admit that I was hyper-sensitive and had irrational feelings of guilt. At the same time, though, I don't think that I was 100% crazy. When I read about witch hunts against abortion doctors and allegations by Operation Rescue and protestors efforts to identify patients, I think that some of my fear was justified and that it is possible that they could end up targeting women who actually wanted to have a living child (but either miscarried, or had a baby die in utero, or had a serious medical condition, or had a non-viable pregnancy, etc.)

I get paranoid about things like that too. I make up hypothetical violent and unstable people, figure out every situation in which they would notice me, decide they disagreed strongly enough with me to kill me, figure out where I live, etc. I'm a politically active person, but I'm also careful about what information I put out, so none of what I come up with is even remotely likely. But I worry about it. I can only imagine how much more worried I'd be if I knew a real person who'd be capable of that, especially just after a miscarriage. All that to say, it's unlikely, especially in Canada(?), but I don't blame you for being scared.

[Three and Done]

I don't think it is meant to shame women who had an abortion. It is painful to lose a pregnancy without any control over the matter. So when you hear a term that is generally applied to a choice, you have a reaction. The implication is that you *did* something. If you wanted the pregnancy, that is not a welcome implication. It does not mean that a woman who chooses an elective abortion has done something wrong or shameful, merely that it implies choice at a time when choice has been taken away. At least that is what I meant.

Abortion is a loaded word. That is not a reflection on women who choose abortion, but a reflection on a society that has a real vendetta against any kind of reproductive autonomy.

I agree with emmiedahl (again).

And to clarify my situation further - at the time of my miscarriage I was with a very abusive man. After I lost the baby, he did everything in his power to make me feel that I had caused the death of our child (as if I wasn't devastated enough). He didn't stay with me in the hospital for long, instead calling my mother to come down, because he "was tired" and "couldn't handle it". He flatly refused to come to the hospital with me when I had the D & C.

He even went so far as to call me a "babykiller" quite often, and told a number of people that I "killed our (his) baby".

That behavior is shaming of the worst kind, IMO.

[Lychee]

I have a kindof funny story about this- my friend has just finished med school and in her first year they sent her and a fellow student out to interview a patient as practice. This woman was someone who had volunteered to talk to the students and then give feedback or Points for improvement at the end to help them build empathy skills and bedside manner. She had a number of miscarriages in the past but since had a baby.

They were off to an unauspicious start when the guy opened with " so tell me about your abortion" and it was downhill frOm there. Every time he referred to her loss he called it an abortion despite her pointedly using miscarriage. All the time my friend was sitting next to him kicking him in the shins and generally attempting to get him to shut up. His crowning moment of fail was actually jumping in to correct the patient.

Needless to say as soon as it was time for feedback she gave him a piece of her mind and he still just looked blank and said " but it's the medical term" sorry kid but you fail empathy forever! The only saving grace is that at least this was just a practise with someone who was hopefully prepared for clueless students. Glad they don't let them lose on 'real' patients straight away.

[bananacat]

I don't agree that it's good bedside manner to avoid using accurate medical terms. Doctors don't say tummy and ouchies just to make their patients feel better.

I had vaginal itching a few months ago and I called to make a doctor appointment. I told the receptionist that my symptom was vaginal itching. When I got there for the appointment, I told the nurse that I had vaginal itching. Then the doctor came in and said "So, I hear you have itching...down there." I nearly started laughing. It's a vagina. If my own doctor can't use a medically accurate term, then who can?

A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. That "spontaneous" part already shows that it wasn't voluntary. It proves that you're not a horrible baby-murderer and/or that you really truly did love your future baby unlike those other women who have abortions. Even if you're pro-choice, you're passing judgment when you get your fee-fees hurt by a medically accurate term. You may not intend to insult women who have elective abortions, but intent isn't magic. If you're oh so worried about differentiating between voluntary and non-voluntary, the "spontaneous" part already has you covered. Abortion is only an emotionally charged word because anti-abortion activists are making it so. We need to reclaim the word. How long until people start complaining about the option to abort a non-responding computer program because it's too emotionally charged to ever use the word?

[starfish]

What would the correct term be for removing an ectopic pregnancy? I'm just wondering if the correct term would be elective abortion or surgical abortion.

I think it's good to go over all these terms. The Affordable Care Act has some implications for abortion coverage, and I've wondered if insurance coders would use a term that would nix payment.

[Coconut Flan]

Neither expression is appropriate for a tubal pregnancy in my experience.

I had one and it was listed as a laparoscopy without salpingectomy.

[emmiedahl]

I don't agree that it's good bedside manner to avoid using accurate medical terms. Doctors don't say tummy and ouchies just to make their patients feel better.

Doctors and nurses and other medical personnel are routinely trained to use patient-friendly words, but I agree with you given the patient understands the medical terms. I get very annoyed when doctors use baby talk with me. I am not a little baby who needs to have the big mean words broken down into toddler-friendly language. But many people misunderstand the word "abortion". I don't misunderstand it, but I could see some people getting upset when their medical records say (as mine do) that they are a habitual aborter. It does not say spontaneous, it says "grand multigravida, habitual aborter" etc.

The point of this thread was that we worry that some whackjob will get access to our records, and think the fact that I am a habitual aborter makes it okay to put my name and address on pro-life databases. I could be a target if the wrong person saw that. It is very unlikely, it does not keep me up at night. But I should be able to discuss it, shouldn't I? Am I a slut-shamer because I discuss my fears about a medical term being used in a way that leads to my family being in danger?

A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. That "spontaneous" part already shows that it wasn't voluntary. It proves that you're not a horrible baby-murderer and/or that you really truly did love your future baby unlike those other women who have abortions. Even if you're pro-choice, you're passing judgment when you get your fee-fees hurt by a medically accurate term. You may not intend to insult women who have elective abortions, but intent isn't magic. If you're oh so worried about differentiating between voluntary and non-voluntary, the "spontaneous" part already has you covered.

No one here has used language that passes judgment. They said they were worried about a random nutjob reading their charts and killing them. They said that the language stung a bit at a time when most women are a hormonal and emotional wreck. You have to really, really stretch to read this:

I CHOSE to have an abortion.

I did NOT choose to have a miscarriage.

And see someone shaming women.

I am allowed to grieve a wanted pregnancy. It is not a reflection on anyone else. If it were an unwanted pregnancy, I would feel different. I have been very clear that my attachment was due to my wanting the child and creating a mental future for it--naming it. If that child was unwanted and unnamed, there would be nothing to grieve. That ball of cells' importance was limited to the importance I placed on it; nonetheless, I had indeed placed importance on it. The act of valuing a future spent raising a future child is not a slam to women who have aborted. In the case of my miscarriages, the fetuses had a lot of value to me. If I became pregnant today, that pregnancy would have no value, and an abortion, whether elective or spontaneous, would be a relief. I am within my feminist rights to have those feelings and share them. Some women here have spoken in other threads about how they valued a pregnancy and chose to have an elective abortion. Are they shaming as well?

Abortion is only an emotionally charged word because anti-abortion activists are making it so. We need to reclaim the word. How long until people start complaining about the option to abort a non-responding computer program because it's too emotionally charged to ever use the word?

I completely agree with this. I think part of the issue is that the word "abortion" used in reference to miscarriage usually stays in charts; medical personnel try to use less charged and more familiar language when dealing with patients. So it is unfamiliar, and the only time most women hear it is when they are encountering political propaganda. Ultimately, we abort something (a mission, a computer program, a pregnancy) when it is not working out and will not be successful for whatever reason, so abortion is the right word. I am not sure how to reclaim it, but I agree it needs to happen.

[bananacat]

Emmie, you can grieve your spontaneous abortion all you want. You can also grieve your elective abortion. Or you can grieve one or the other or neither. But they're both still abortion and if you cry because someone calls it that then you're an idiot.

[emmiedahl]

Emmie, you can grieve your spontaneous abortion all you want. You can also grieve your elective abortion. Or you can grieve one or the other or neither. But they're both still abortion and if you cry because someone calls it that then you're an idiot.

When did I say I cried? I said I worried that someone would find my medical records.

eta: you consider a woman an idiot for being upset over random shit during a miscarriage and *I* am the one shaming? Um, okay.

[meda]

Emmie, you can grieve your spontaneous abortion all you want. You can also grieve your elective abortion. Or you can grieve one or the other or neither. But they're both still abortion and if you cry because someone calls it that then you're an idiot.

That is harsh. I agree with reclaiming the word abortion, but I don't see what is empowering about insulting a woman because at the time of the loss she is not able or willing to do so.

[kb2]

What would the correct term be for removing an ectopic pregnancy? I'm just wondering if the correct term would be elective abortion or surgical abortion.

I think it's good to go over all these terms. The Affordable Care Act has some implications for abortion coverage, and I've wondered if insurance coders would use a term that would nix payment.

I think an ectopic pregnancy is just called an ectopic pregnancy because it has different implications from an elective or spontaneous abortion.

[Rosa]

well, mine was treated medically with an abortifacient drug and then I had a D&C, and I've always worried that now I'm on an Unwoman list somewhere because of it.

[Minerva]

If you have an induced abortion, would that show up anywhere besides the clinic's records? I trust that in states where you don't have batshit power-tripping anti-choice lawmakers, abortion clinics know to keep their records very safe.

[Rosa]

Some people use insurance to pay for it, so it's in the insurance company's records.

And if you're honest with your regular OB afterward, it's in your chart that way.

[starfish]

Neither expression is appropriate for a tubal pregnancy in my experience.

I had one and it was listed as a laparoscopy without salpingectomy.

That's interesting, I have never heard it called that. I nearly lost a dear relative to a tubal pregnancy, so I have been worried about the implications for an ectopic pregnancy because of 1) the attempts to pass the personhood amendment and 2) the strict language in the ACA regarding paying for abortions. It seems like if treatment for an ectopic pregnancy got coded the wrong way, or even if a miscarried was coded the wrong way, it would be difficult to get the insurance co to pay.

I'll never forget when John McCain, in the 2008 presidential debates discussion of abortion, used air quotes around the phrase "life of the woman" and said that excused was abused. I thought about my relative, and I just wanted to STFU.

I'm sorry for you experience, Abigail, and glad you made it through okay. My relative's life was save because of the decisive action of a gifted surgeon. And it wasn't a Catholic hospital. No one hesitated.

[Coconut Flan]

Oops, I just read that and I should have said terminology for surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy. The pregnancy itself was called an ectopic pregnancy.

I shall blame the migraine medication for leaving out words today. Sorry.

Thanks for the good thoughts. It's been awhile and I'm long since over it. I'd heard of ectopic pregnancies and one thing I learned was that the talk of pain was not exaggerated. I was in such pain that wanting that to stop helped a lot with getting over the rest of it. We also already had children and hadn't really planned on any more.

Having had my share of medical coding errors I won't say it isn't likely someone would miscode a procedure, but then there are ways to get that corrected so insurance pays appropriately.

[kb2]

Oops, I just read that and I should have said terminology for surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy. The pregnancy itself was called an ectopic pregnancy.

I shall blame the migraine medication for leaving out words today. Sorry.

Now I'm realizing I misread starfish's post, and they were asking about removal of ectopic pregnancy not the pregnancy itself. So my reading comprehension is not very good. :doh: Sorry.

[Coconut Flan]

We'll blame it on the weather and move on. ;)

[VintageJen1984]

If you have an induced abortion, would that show up anywhere besides the clinic's records? I trust that in states where you don't have batshit power-tripping anti-choice lawmakers, abortion clinics know to keep their records very safe.

It should show up on your medical records. Any medical procedure will be important for your doctor to know about for any future health issues.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Emmie, you can grieve your spontaneous abortion all you want. You can also grieve your elective abortion. Or you can grieve one or the other or neither. But they're both still abortion and if you cry because someone calls it that then you're an idiot.

So instead of slut-shaming, we have grief-shaming?

Since I was a nerd who had read my husband's OB text books during my first preg, I knew that abortion was a medical term for end pregnancy loss and didn't get upset about it. I can fully understand the feelings of someone who would, though.

Irrational guilt was a large component of my grief process. In 1998, the web was still very new (as in each page taking 2 min to load, and losing the connection every time someone buzzed up to our apartment), so you didn't have every pregnant woman posting on baby boards. There just wasn't much talk about miscarriage in public. Women kept pregnancies quiet during the first trimester, and if they had a loss, they kept it quiet and never discussed it. I was urged to do the same, and the fact that hubby and I discuss our loss and grief in public was considered scandalous, esp. by the ILs. At the same time, the baby magazines and What to Expect were filled with dire warnings and rules for pregnant women - don't eat deli meats or certain cheeses or sushi, don't change the cat litter, don't drink too much coffee, don't forget your vitamins, do this and don't do that OR YOU'LL HURT THE BABY. So, when I got pregnant at 26 and followed all the rules and things still went horribly wrong, my immediate thought was "what did I do wrong?", followed by "will everyone blame me for losing the baby?"

You think someone is a an idiot for crying because someone calls their miscarriage an abortion? Listen, I cried when the life insurance agent's secretary called me up just after my due date to ask about the baby, sounded confused when we simply said that there was no baby and started to say "..but my records indicate...". In my state of mind at the time, she was pointing out that I had failed to produce a baby as expected. I also cried when my MIL suggested that I have a seat during a party when I was 2 mos. into my next pregnancy - because in my mind, that was a sign that she secretly blamed me for the miscarriage and thought that I would endanger another pregnancy by dancing. I cried when well-meaning but clueless friends asked if I was pregnant again yet or said that it was time to give my daughter a sibling.

After all that crying (about an hour/day, every day, for almost a year), I was getting really upset about grief-shaming. Our families just wanted us to pretend that nothing had happened, and act as if everything was fine. Until I finally found some support from others who had gone through the same thing, my feelings were dismissed, or seen as a sign that I was going crazy.