Missouri Fights For the Right To Pray!

[Visionoyahweh]

The first amendment just isn't enough! There's NO WAY this could go wrong. I'm kinda hoping some Jews/Muslims will use it to refuse to dissect fetal pigs in biology classes, instead of just Christians refusing to learn about evolution.

Official Ballot Title:

Shall the Missouri Constitution be amended to ensure:

That the right of Missouri citizens to express their religious beliefs shall not be infringed;

That school children have the right to pray and acknowledge God voluntarily in their schools; and

That all public schools shall display the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution.

It is estimated this proposal will result in little or no costs or savings for state and local governmental entities.

Full text of the bill, in PDF. READ IT!

http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/2012bal ... text_1.pdf

Pro:

http://www.voteyesamendment2.com/Home.html

Con:

http://www.au.org/MOAmendment2

Amendment 2 puts the Missouri Constitution in direct conflict with the U.S. Constitution. This will lead to expensive litigation that Missourians will be forced to pay for!

Amendment 2 says that school curriculums threaten religious liberty. This will threaten Missouri’s public education system.

Amendment 2 coerces prayer in Missouri’s public schools. No child should feel like an outsider in the safety of their school.

How could coerced prayer endorsed by the state possibly go wrong? Their state has outlawed gay rights/marriage, so they need something to keep the fundies happy.

ETA: I forgot to mention a James Dobson group is behind this. (Missouri Family)

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Pastafarians! Mobilize!

[galaxygirl]

I do hope that other religions jump on this, because I highly doubt that it's meant for anyone but Christians.

[Guest Anonymous]

It is estimated this proposal will result in little or no costs or savings for state and local governmental entities.

Read: This bill does not make a scrap of difference to the status quo, it just allows people to wank about and feel persecuted.

[CanadianHippie]

Read: This bill does not make a scrap of difference to the status quo, it just allows people to wank about and feel persecuted.

Yup, just a way for them to say "see they HATES US CHRISTIANS!" when people start saying it's a stupid bill.

[jesssnerch]

Ewww, I hate living in Missouri so much! I'm so glad I'm homeschooling this year.

[AtroposHeart]

I wonder how they would feel if members of non-christian religions used this right. If I was a child in the Missouri Public schollI would go around chanting, "We all come from the Goddes." and sharing mediation advice and flyers on which incense to use for what spell your trying.

How you like them apples?

[Visionoyahweh]

Yup, just a way for them to say "see they HATES US CHRISTIANS!" when people start saying it's a stupid bill.

The bill will cost a lot of money in lawsuits, considering it basically contradicts the first amendment.

[patsymae]

It's already happening all over, although not with the posturing of state laws. My daughter in law teaches 5th grade in New Jersey, and she has one child that has to be excused from any topic his family (Jehovah's Witness) objects to, which includes discussion of the solar system, because his family doesn't understand that the lesson was about astronomy, not astology.

We are so screwed.

[mypsychoticself]

It's already happening all over, although not with the posturing of state laws. My daughter in law teaches 5th grade in New Jersey, and she has one child that has to be excused from any topic his family (Jehovah's Witness) objects to, which includes discussion of the solar system, because his family doesn't understand that the lesson was about astronomy, not astology.

We are so screwed.

Seriously? In a public school? Around here, afaik, the view is that religion/praying is ok as long as it doesn't interfere with other students' educations. Having a student go in and out of the classroom would be really distracting. It would also be more difficult for the teacher to give out tests, since that student would need a different test than everyone else. That just doesn't seem fair. If the parents want that much control over what their kids learn, they should homeschool or find a private school.

[patsymae]

Yup, a public school. And this is in a state that still has No Child Left Behind and teachers are held accountable for all children passing state-devised tests, even though apparently religious parents can pick and choose what part of the curriculum they wish their children to be exposed to.

When my son was in public school (also new jersey, different district) the legislature passed a "voluntary moment of silence" as a way to sneak in prayer through the back door. Our district superintendant decided that "voluntary" meant just that and strongly suggested that perhaps a great deal of noisemaking might also be appropriate at that moment. Nothing much came of that law.

Times have changed, and not for the better.

[patsymae]

Basically, they believe that freedom of religion means that they have a right to ensure that they are never placed in an environment in which anyone any time can do anything that contradicts their religious beliefs.

Kind of off topic, so sorry, but this brings back a job I had at the IRS--working the night shift sitting around a table sorting papers. Very boring job but lots of interesting people who did this at night and something else during the day. One of the guys was a mythology buff who was doing his own translation of the Iliad (Odyssey? on of those) so we would talk about mythology. One of the women complained that hearing talk about gods and goddesses was discriminating against her as a Christian and that the government was violating her religious beliefs by allowing coworkers to talk about pagan gods and goddesses in her presence. If I remember correctly, she was successful in the sense that we were reprimanded (scary) but not in that we kept doing it anyway (nothing they could really do about it).

When did the rest of us put these people in charge?

[Anxious Girl]

Great, Missouri might be on The State That I Will Never Visit list.

[Naga Viper]

Aw, Kansas City and St. Louis are perfectly nice. It's just, you know, the Ozarks and stuff.

[jesssnerch]

It's also the state that gave my daughter homework that consisted of "fill in the bubble." No corresponding questions or anything, just practice on how to fill the bubbles in the right way.

[Anxious Girl]

Aw, Kansas City and St. Louis are perfectly nice. It's just, you know, the Ozarks and stuff.

Alright; I won't be too hard on those too major cities... I have always wanted to visit St Louis anyway. But just the cities if this bill gets passed. If it doesn't; then I plan a St Louis + country road trip... *please forgive me if I sounded like an ass* And... Ozarks? Central New Jerseyian is confuddled. *scratches head in confusion*

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I went on a vacation to Branson once. It was a group deal and someone had traded a timeshare slot, so our group from around the US would all meet up there, it is rather central after all.

It was... interesting. Snark paradise. Every possible "Americana" red white and blue faded-faux-country sort of wooden household decoration is for sale, with a heaping helping of God over it all (lots of angel cruft). They sell postcards of the traffic because the traffic is that amazingly congested. Lots of "family entertainment."

Though I did get to talk for a while to some people who ride horses in those dinner horse performance shows, that was pretty interesting.

[Guest Anonymous]

Branson is horrible. Born and raised in St. Louis, I follow my mom, who has always had a vow never to visit Branson for any reason. Please don't judge us :-(, even though I know it's hard.

Come to StL, watch the World Series Champion Cardinals play, visit our free world class zoo and art museum, as well as checking out the tons of excellent high schools and great universities.

I love St. Louis. Great pizza, and great Italian bakeries. The botanical garden is phenomenal, too! Oh, and the sculpture park. It's pretty walkable too, which I really enjoyed.

[keeperrox]

Official Ballot Title:

Shall the Missouri Constitution be amended to ensure:

That the right of Missouri citizens to express their religious beliefs shall not be infringed;

That school children have the right to pray and acknowledge God voluntarily in their schools; and

That all public schools shall display the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution.

It is estimated this proposal will result in little or no costs or savings for state and local governmental entities.

Okay, here's what I want to know...

That the right of Missouri citizens to express their religious beliefs shall not be infringed;

How, exactly are they being infringed upon now?

That school children have the right to pray and acknowledge God voluntarily in their schools;

Do individual children not have the right to pray (which is something that can be done silently) and acknowledge their God now? How are they being disallowed to acknowledge their God now?

That all public schools shall display the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution.

Um, okay. They realize that this isn't a Christian text and that it applies to all citizens regardless of their religion or lack thereof, right?

[Childless]

I've been to Branson. Once, as a child. I will never go back. When I vacation, I VACATION. I want to go to Paris, Angkor Wat, the Taj Mahal, on safari in Botswana, etc. I don't want to go to some country fried gag fest in the middle of nowhere.

[CanadianHippie]

Okay, here's what I want to know...

That the right of Missouri citizens to express their religious beliefs shall not be infringed;

How, exactly are they being infringed upon now?

That school children have the right to pray and acknowledge God voluntarily in their schools;

Do individual children not have the right to pray (which is something that can be done silently) and acknowledge their God now? How are they being disallowed to acknowledge their God now?

That all public schools shall display the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution.

Um, okay. They realize that this isn't a Christian text and that it applies to all citizens regardless of their religion or lack thereof, right?

Because the ebil lesbians, and libruls, and pagans don't want the teacher or other students dragging all the other kids into a group for a loud obnoxious prayer in the middle of the classroom or playground so all the ebil heathen children can hear and learn about God and be converted! That means that the Christians are being discriminated against, and their children forbidden from practicing their faith and totally violating the :::ORIGINAL INTENTIONS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS TO MAKE CHRISTIANS SUPER SPECHUL SNOWFLAKES!!!!::::

[mirele]

This is the only kind of fighting I want to be doing:

eBShN8qT4lk

[keeperrox]

Because the ebil lesbians, and libruls, and pagans don't want the teacher or other students dragging all the other kids into a group for a loud obnoxious prayer in the middle of the classroom or playground so all the ebil heathen children can hear and learn about God and be converted! That means that the Christians are being discriminated against, and their children forbidden from practicing their faith and totally violating the :::ORIGINAL INTENTIONS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS TO MAKE CHRISTIANS SUPER SPECHUL SNOWFLAKES!!!!::::

I still don't see how the above amendment allows them to do that.

[CanadianHippie]

I still don't see how the above amendment allows them to do that.

You are thinking with the logical mindset, not the fundie mindset. Imagine you are a Conservative Christian who knows your religion is the only true religion and all others are not really "religions" but idol worship... Oh and your religion requires you to force your beliefs on others whether they want it or not.

Reasonable Christians (or reasonable people of other faiths) would see this new amendment and think "we can already do this." People who feel it is their duty to God to harass people of different faiths think "DANG STRAIGHT! I need to be able to follow my religion too! They have to let me loud and proud about my Godliness!"

[keeperrox]

You are thinking with the logical mindset, not the fundie mindset. Imagine you are a Conservative Christian who knows your religion is the only true religion and all others are not really "religions" but idol worship... Oh and your religion requires you to force your beliefs on others whether they want it or not.

Yes, but my question was serious. How are they legally expecting these things? Are all courts in Missouri overrun with Conservative Christian Fundamentalists? Are they even legal issues now?