I Can See a Friend Slipping into Fundiedom

[GenerationCedarchip]

One of my good friends was fairly mainstream and she married a guy who was fundie-lite. They now have a son who just turned 4, and I've just been noticing over the past few months that they're getting closer and closer to fundiedom. It started with this idea about a year ago that working outside the home was wrong and daycare was "evil", so my friend quit her job. Not only did she yank the baby out of daycare, but she also doesn't ever want to leave him with a sitter, even for a date night or anything like that.

Now, as he approaches school age, they've decided that they don't want him exposed to public school. Their local school has some crime issues, so I get that. However, the more she talks about planning for homeschool, the more it sounds like SOTDRT - lots of "character training" and so on. When I talked about this with her the other day and asked her about her husband's take on it, she said that he initially wanted to just go with private school but that since they want to watch their money, he's willing to go along with her idea at least for now. And then she slipped in a mention of how she has persuaded him that they should stop with the birth control.

This sounds so much like the beginnings of stories I've read on NLQ that it's making me nervous.

[AtroposHeart]

Maybe it is time to have an intervention? Possible send her a link to No longer quivering or tell her your experinces with fundies

[PennySycamore]

It does sound like she's slipping into fundiedom. It also sounds like her husband isn't too thrilled with some of her decisions. I hope her headship will serve as a tempering influence. Maybe you could share your concerns or some links with him.

[Esther]

It does sound like she's slipping into fundiedom. It also sounds like her husband isn't too thrilled with some of her decisions. I hope her headship will serve as a tempering influence. Maybe you could share your concerns or some links with him.

I agree with this - I think that it's a good sign, at least, that even her fundie-lite husband seems reluctant to follow her in this. Hopefully he holds her back some, because it does sound like she's turning into a Duggar in front of your very eyes. (Okay, perhaps a slight exaggeration, but you know what I mean!)

[bellicosebroad]

One of my good friends was fairly mainstream and she married a guy who was fundie-lite. They now have a son who just turned 4, and I've just been noticing over the past few months that they're getting closer and closer to fundiedom. It started with this idea about a year ago that working outside the home was wrong and daycare was "evil", so my friend quit her job. Not only did she yank the baby out of daycare, but she also doesn't ever want to leave him with a sitter, even for a date night or anything like that.

Now, as he approaches school age, they've decided that they don't want him exposed to public school. Their local school has some crime issues, so I get that. However, the more she talks about planning for homeschool, the more it sounds like SOTDRT - lots of "character training" and so on. When I talked about this with her the other day and asked her about her husband's take on it, she said that he initially wanted to just go with private school but that since they want to watch their money, he's willing to go along with her idea at least for now. And then she slipped in a mention of how she has persuaded him that they should stop with the birth control.

This sounds so much like the beginnings of stories I've read on NLQ that it's making me nervous.

Sad, and I can relate. I've lost two friends this way, one of whom I'd been friends with for more than 10 years and whose girls were like my own nieces. I just couldn't do it anymore when she started to tell me I was going to hell because I wouldn't denounce and then dump my gay friends, or get them to "repent." It happened fast, too. It seemed like she was open and accepting one minute, then judging, hateful, and self-righteous the next. In reality, I think it happened over several months. BTW, her husband didn't go along with it, put up with it for a couple of years, and then divorced her because she just wouldn't stop trying to pull him in, too. Last I heard, he was remarried, but the girls (now young women) had decided to stay with her. I miss them as much as I miss our friendship, but sometimes it just can't be helped. I hope your story turns out differently.

[debrand]

What kind of childhood did she have? If she had an unstable or abusive childhood she might want to provide her son with the ideal, perfect life that she did not have. Once you discover what is at the root of her attraction to fundamentalism, you can help pull her back a bit. The problem is that she might not understand what her own motivations are.

[nokidsmom]

Sad, and I can relate. I've lost two friends this way, one of whom I'd been friends with for more than 10 years and whose girls were like my own nieces. I just couldn't do it anymore when she started to tell me I was going to hell because I wouldn't denounce and then dump my gay friends, or get them to "repent." It happened fast, too. It seemed like she was open and accepting one minute, then judging, hateful, and self-righteous the next. In reality, I think it happened over several months. BTW, her husband didn't go along with it, put up with it for a couple of years, and then divorced her because she just wouldn't stop trying to pull him in, too. Last I heard, he was remarried, but the girls (now young women) had decided to stay with her. I miss them as much as I miss our friendship, but sometimes it just can't be helped. I hope your story turns out differently.

I had a friend whose husband turned to fundiedom; had a conversion, decided that she was to submit to him, wear only skirts, etc. This did not sit well with her, the biggest issue being that she was no longer an equal partner. She divorced him instead. The sad thing, years later, he changed his mind about his conversion (sounded like he was just going through a "phase" and regretted driving her away.

[GenerationCedarchip]

What kind of childhood did she have? If she had an unstable or abusive childhood she might want to provide her son with the ideal, perfect life that she did not have. Once you discover what is at the root of her attraction to fundamentalism, you can help pull her back a bit. The problem is that she might not understand what her own motivations are.

That's the thing. She actually had a happy childhood, and I know she's close with her parents. However, she grew up in a tiny town and now she lives in the city, and I think she's seen a lot she never saw going on back home. I think fundie-dom is appealing to her because she definitely seems to want her son to have that idyllic sort of life that VF tries to package in their catalogs.

[lilwriter85]

I agree with other posts, maybe try sending her links to NLQ or Recovering Grace. Maybe also talk to her about throughly researching home school curriculum or materials.

[Deleted06]

Has she also started using these types of words/phrases...amen, lovin' on, amazing, grateful?

Someone I knew back in the day has recently started talking like this and it makes me wonder.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Has she also started using these types of words/phrases...amen, lovin' on, amazing, grateful?

Someone I knew back in the day has recently started talking like this and it makes me wonder.

Not entirely. There are constant reminders of things God's been teaching her, everything is "such a blessing", she wants to teach her son "his true purpose" and that "we don't conform to the world's ways." Those are the main things I remember hearing a lot. Oh, and the thing she's started saying that really jarred me - suddenly so many people are "too worldly" or "they don't have our values."

[mrs]

Has she also started using these types of words/phrases...amen, lovin' on, amazing, grateful?

Someone I knew back in the day has recently started talking like this and it makes me wonder.

Don't forget the favorite -> conviction!

I agree, that you could gently suggest researching a wide variety of curriculum. Do you know any other moms that HS using a more liberal platform? Perhaps you could exchange emails for them. If she is in urban area there are many moms that HS, and most are more progressive you could encourage her to go to a mommy met up.

[Coconut Flan]

It happened fast, too. It seemed like she was open and accepting one minute, then judging, hateful, and self-righteous the next.

It was called "gettin' religion" where I grew up. It's usually some kind of conversion experience or "conviction." It does happen quickly. The good news is that some of them fall out of it just as quickly. I recently watched that with a friend of the family. From falling into the kool aid to heading to dry land was 18 months. Sometimes it happens with a crisis like divorce, bankruptcy, business failure, and they are looking for anything to give them an anchor.

Sadly some fundies prey on people at their weakest moment. I had people do that to me during a bad time in my life and luckily looked up and saw through it fairly soon.

[abba12]

I don't know how welcome my advice is, but here it is anyway.

I am a fundie, or fundie lite, or something (one day I'll have to actually post my beliefs and ask what on earth I am) but I read this website and no longer quivering regularly. Why? ANY belief system has room to run to extremes. In some beliefs it's more pronounced and damaging than others. The thing with Patriarchy and quiverful beleifs, when run to extremes, is that they can be taken out of their context, and out of perspective, to result in abuse, neglect, and ruined lives. I've seen it happen in families who became legalistic for the sake of it, or to follow the trends to see who can be 'holier', and lose sight of the entire purpose, and why we believe things in the first place. For example, someone getting so obsessed with modesty that they seem to forget the entire purpose in the first place. People begin believing something for a reason, but then it slowly changes until it is a mutation of it's former self, and the original reason for it's existence is long since lost.

I also know that I have a personality that is VERY prone to getting carried away, and have come from a severely abusive background myself

So I read this website and NLQ so that I can see the other side. I don't agree with everything I read here, but it challenges my beliefs and forces me to determine WHY I believe something. When I see an argument against a belief I have, I have to decide whether I disagree with the content of that argument, I believe the argument is based on misinformation or a difference of definitions, or the argument is actually a logical and truthful one and I need to revisit my beliefs to re-examine them.

Many people with my beliefs, 'fundies', seem afraid to have their beliefs challenged by anyone but the ignorant person at the supermarket. Any real argument or view of another opinion is avoided. But I think it's very healthy and important to have our beliefs challenged, I cannot stand people who believe something without knowing why they believe it, or because it's just what everyone else around them believes. Reading this forum and NQL, I have identified exactly WHY I think certain situations are wrong or went wrong so I can more clearly see what I believe is right (Most of the women on NQL were abused, no question, and my heart aches for them. Unfortunately because of their experiences they don't believe that you can have P/QF without abuse. I believe you can and see it every day in families around me, abuse should not be a component of it, but they're right when they say a man with abusive tendencies can do a LOT of damage in this lifestyle and it's shown me warning signs to look out for, and helped me think about what I believe should be done if I see that situation in my own marriage or someone elses marriage in the future. How could those situations have been avoided or impacted in line with my idea of what the bible teaches. For the record, I believe the bible entirely supports a woman calling the police right then and there if her husband hits her :) )

Reading other opinions has strengthened my beliefs in some areas as I have come to understand my beliefs better, and it has changed my beliefs in other areas where, upon understanding better, I discovered certain components of a belief were not biblical, but had been 'added on' by people following the latest 'trend'. I also find a lot of my beliefs, while holding the same name, are actually very different to many of the big name America fundies. I believe in the idea of SAHDs, but I do NOT agree at ALL with the Botkin girls and will not buy any of their resources, apparently my definition is quite different, and has nothing to do with being daddys second wife, or even a wife in training per-se. I think living in Australia has helped this, our differences in culture have made a huge difference to how fundies in my country live out certain ideas and beliefs (homeschooling in Australia has it's religious members, but was primarily led by academic homeschoolers and parents who's children were severely bullied/disabled. I can't stand the american homeschooling culture these days... Yeah, education dosen't have to be your primary goal for homeschooling, but it's still an important goal for goodness sake! I've spent a week on the well trained mind forums and I already want to smack some heads in! The Australian homeschooling forum has far fewer stupid people on it. My point being, culturally, homeschoolers are generally more concerned with academics here than they seem to be there.)

Anyway, as a result of learning and actually being mindful of what I believe, I may still be a fundie or something, but I am probably one of the more tollerable fundies, and I doubt any of you could consider the treatment of my children to be abusive. I said in another thread awhile ago that for completely unrelated medical reasons we had CPS looking at us recently, and they are quite happy with what they see (I have weekly appointments with a support agency connected to them, so there's no hiding things or putting on a good mask once in awhile, this support agency would let them know if anything was wrong, and I can't make things look perfect on a weekly basis!). So my advice to your friend would be to explore those beliefs, and by all means consider homeschool, but remember there is a real world out there that your children will have to function in one day. Don't follow anything without questioning it, know why you believe what you do, the latest preacher is still not infallable. Read websites like these when you have the strength, to keep yourself balanced and remembering the other side of things. And please, please don't just latch on to the 'new in thing' without asking questions and looking deeper. That's how well meaning families end up destroying themselves. Just because something is good in itself dosen't mean you have to do all of the good things (baking bread is great! But I have better things to do with my time right now and more important ministries in my life, it's not a biblical mandate, despite what the healthy eating fundie mommas will tell you lol. I'm pretty sure, on my death bed, I wont lament the lack of home baked bread in my childrens lives. I WILL regret hours and hours spent in housework and chores like baking the bread, that could have been far better used)

Good luck to you and your friend, and I am honestly praying that your friend finds some levelheaded likeminded people, and dosen't accidentally get herself mixed up in an abusive church or extreme situation.

[Guest Anonymous]

You're an attention whoring fundie. Thanks for playing!

[holierthanyou]

i heart lissar.

[Guest Anonymous]

i heart lissar.

I big puffy heart you back. This one flounces over and over but alas, never makes it stick.

[Rosa]

I am going to contradict everyone else's advice and say: treat her like you think she's in an abusive relationship. Don't try to engage critically, that will just make her defensive. Instead, keep contact open even as much as you can stand, even if it means submitting to some witnessing/evangelizing. Ask gentle questions (what gave you that idea? How is that working? Does kiddo like it? How are you feeling?) and if something is really awful say so - wow, that's fucked up (or whatever wording works in your relationship.) Tell her she's smart/capable/trustworthy, in case she's forgetting.

She's in charge of her own beliefs; all you can be is a lifeline if she decides to grab it. If she IS falling into abusive fundiedom, she's going to be told by her religious friends/pastor that challenges from old friends and family are reasons to cut them off, and criticizing or sending information is going to increase her isolation. If it's not spiritually abusive, you're going to just look like a condescending jerk. (the one exception I'd make here is that criticism of specific curricula and books might still work, because she'll be getting recommendations for really awful stuff.)

We had a relative getting really fundie, but she turned around because some of her strong convictions put her on the outs with her fundie circle. If all of us had criticized her choices when she was headed into it, I think she would have dug in - and if we'd let our relationships go bad, when she started leaving the fundie circle, she would have been lonely and vulnerable.

[doggie]

All religion is a mutation from the original. no one has original beliefs or faith. No one even knows what the original faith was like. the bible has mutated from the original parts that were almost randomly thrown together then altered by people with their own agenda's. The whole SAHD thing is a joke. girls were married you in biblical times They were married (given away with a large bribe) and were never married for love>for safety they could not be out in the world. we don't live that way anymore thank god. so following the SAHD thing can never work because it was the way 200 years ago in another culture and country.

[synchroswimr]

You're an attention whoring fundie. Thanks for playing!

Yeah. Was there any actual advice there? I didn't see any

[Anise]

I don't know how welcome my advice is, but here it is anyway.

Wonder why you feel like you have to justify that lifestyle/set of beliefs. :roll:

Also, it's no surprise that you don't feel the fundie life to be extreme as you live it.

Reminds me: I overheard my mother defending the Pearls to one of my brothers, mentioning and downplaying the use of plumbing line. Like any normal person, my brother was horrified. Fundies really have to be primed and gradually exposed to ever more extreme images and ideas. To the situation at hand, perhaps it would help to show what the end result of the fundie life really is in all its gory details.

[Miggy]

I am going to contradict everyone else's advice and say: treat her like you think she's in an abusive relationship. Don't try to engage critically, that will just make her defensive. Instead, keep contact open even as much as you can stand, even if it means submitting to some witnessing/evangelizing. Ask gentle questions (what gave you that idea? How is that working? Does kiddo like it? How are you feeling?) and if something is really awful say so - wow, that's fucked up (or whatever wording works in your relationship.) Tell her she's smart/capable/trustworthy, in case she's forgetting.

She's in charge of her own beliefs; all you can be is a lifeline if she decides to grab it. If she IS falling into abusive fundiedom, she's going to be told by her religious friends/pastor that challenges from old friends and family are reasons to cut them off, and criticizing or sending information is going to increase her isolation. If it's not spiritually abusive, you're going to just look like a condescending jerk. (the one exception I'd make here is that criticism of specific curricula and books might still work, because she'll be getting recommendations for really awful stuff.)

We had a relative getting really fundie, but she turned around because some of her strong convictions put her on the outs with her fundie circle. If all of us had criticized her choices when she was headed into it, I think she would have dug in - and if we'd let our relationships go bad, when she started leaving the fundie circle, she would have been lonely and vulnerable.

I am going to back this one up fully. Criticism makes people defensive. How many fundies do we see who take every little criticism as a sign they are doing things right? If the world doesn't approve, it must be biblical.

My advice;

(1) As Rosa said, respect her beliefs. Don't criticise her for home school but ask her what syllabus she is using and why she choose it. If she starts talking about dressing modestly ask her to show you the bible verses and be ready to discuss rather than argue the points. If she refuses to use any bible other than the KJV, suggest she include Ancient Greek &/or Ancient Hebrew in her home school program so they can look at the original texts. Most fundies won't listen if you suggest NIV or Good News but don't have an answer if you pull out your Ancient Hebrew/Greek edition.

(2) Isolation is the biggest problem with home schooling. (In my experience anyway.) Encourage your friend to keep her kids in activities with other kids. A lot of the home schoolers in my area join the local Christian school to play indoor soccer teams once a week. It means fundy-lite kids are spending 1/2 hour a week with moderate Christians. For a lot of these families, I think it is what stops them falling completely into fundydom. (The mothers get to feel smug that their children are so much more Christian than the Christian school kids. The kids develop some social skills and get exposed to moderate Christianity.) I am sure suitable activities could be found it most areas.

(3) Talk to her husband. Let him know our concerns for his wife and direct him towards No Longer Quivering and some of the blogs - Libby Anne (Love, Joy, Feminism) & Sierra (The Phoenix and Olive Branch) both have intellegent, well written blogs about their lives before and after fundamentalism/quiverful.

[skrmom]

I can see why you have some concerns. If she can afford to stay home with her son, that's great. I worked in day-care briefly and some kids were there 12+ hours a day. I know many moms have to work. If your friend's family can live on her husbands income, that leaves the job she quit open to someone who really needs it.

If they live in a bad school area, I can see not enrolling in the schools there. I would hope she finds an activity outside the home the little boy enjoys (T-ball, cub scouts, soccer) so he can make friends.

I also think she needs time away from 24/7 childcare.

[Esther]

You're an attention whoring fundie. Thanks for playing!

Agreed. WTF?