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samurai_sarah

The Willis Family: Rape Charges Part 2

295 posts in this topic

Isn't he supposed to go to court today?  Anyone heard anything?

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42 minutes ago, SweetLaurel said:

Isn't he supposed to go to court today?  Anyone heard anything?

That was also sloppy reporting. This is probably a reliable source closest to the heat and they say it is tomorrow.

Edited by Blup
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I don't think that the little couple are above reproach. I just think that they are quite different from families like the Duggars. As a testament to that, they have taken steps to protect their children. Whether or not even minimal filming is healthy in the long run remains to be seen, and likely depends on a great many factors. I guess we'll see. 

At any rate, I hope Toby Willis gets what's coming to him.

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An article by a lawyer which addresses some good points. In the old thread others and myself were not convinced about the fleeing part. It now looks like a legal trick. Nasty even if he's found guilty of the real charge.

Edited by Blup
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43 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

To say that like it's a mitigating factor is absolutely disgusting.

As I said "if he's found guilty of the real charge". The normal practice is innocent until proven guilty. Yes it is a horrible thing he is charged with and at the moment it doesn't look good.

But the fleeing from justice part makes it even worse. In our laymen eyes this screams guilty. But as explained in the article if you are not in the state were they want you in court, the fleeing from justice warrant can be applied. They flew back from Ireland on August 31. There rental was sold and long before the investigation even started they told publicly that they would live in the tour bus for the coming months because of there touring schedule. All there published shows up until the arrest on September 9 were not in Tennessee, so no reason to fly back to this state. May be the TBI talked with him in the first week of September, but they didn't confirm that. If this is the case then there is something to the fleeing part, but then again he fled to the place were there was a scheduled show.

If he is guilty, he deserves the 25 year sentence. But the fleeing from justice part could easily be he is wanted in Tennessee but at the moment he isn't for whatever reasons not in this state. So this doesn't make him guilty.

I probably can't convince you, because it looks like your mind is already made up. However other people may still adhere to the principle innocent until proven guilty. And that is why most points -- some are indeed horrible, but still needs to be said -- in the article are good.

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5 minutes ago, Blup said:

I probably can't convince you, because it looks like your mind is already made up. However other people may still adhere to the principle innocent until proven guilty. And that is why most points -- some are indeed horrible, but still needs to be said -- in the article are good.

My mind isn't made up, I didn't even say anything about Toby Willis specifically. I was strictly talking about the sickening attitude of the author of that article. I'm a strong believer in the presumption of innocence in court. If his case went to trial and I was in the jury pool, I would honestly say that I have been following the case in the media and I think he's probably guilty, and then I wouldn't be chosen.

But I just can't listen to anything a child-rape-apologist says about anything. Once I read that, I knew this person did not deserve my respect or consideration.

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A reminder that the flipside to assuming Willis is "innocent until proven guilty" is assuming that the victim is guilty, of lying about this, until proven innocent.  Rape accusations are a zero-sum game - and so while of course one can suspend judgement until the court case is over, it is really, really important that thing is not to prioritise the accused, at the expense of the person who is saying "I was raped as a child", which is exactly what this lawyer is doing.

That lawyer barely mentions that there could be a victim at all, except to say 'rape' isn't as bad as you are thinking, implying there's something weird about the length of time between it's taken to be reported and "But a few are liars, people out for money or fame or revenge." - so it's very, very clear which side they fall on.

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Yeah, as soon as anyone implies that a sexual assault on a child (or anyone, for that matter) "might not be as bad as it sounds because it might not have been forceful and violent" then the steam coming out of my ears blocks out anything else they may have to say.

But I do agree with Blup about the "fleeing from justice" part - the media was too quick to imply that, because they don't have any more evidence than we do whether he was fleeing from possible charges or just happened to be out-of-state due to their shows.  We don't know when they first questioned him, when or even if they told him not to leave Tennessee, why he was not with his family when he started hitchhiking, when he was told to keep his distance from the family, etc.

It's possible that the police aren't certain if he was attempting to flee either, thus the search for whoever gave him a ride. 

All the media reports so far have been sloppy/inaccurate about the timeline for all this.  This makes perfect sense when it comes to the allegations about the original crime since it was years ago, and though the victim may remember very specific details and even be able to point to evidence of the incident, they may not be able to give an exact date.  Plus, giving a range of years as well as a range for the victim's age at the time, prevents certainty about the victim's identity.   But, there's no excuse for the media's sloppiness about the timeline of when he was questioned, what he was told to do and when, and where he went after that.  I'd hate to see any future trial somehow tainted because the media jumped the gun and made assumptions that weren't true.

 


 

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3 hours ago, Lurky said:

 it is really, really important that thing is not to prioritise the accused, at the expense of the person who is saying "I was raped as a child", which is exactly what this lawyer is doing.

This reminds me of a situation that allegedly actually happened in court. I don't remember where I read it, but the father of a girl was brought up on charges and continued to deny that anything untoward had ever happened. The child said that "daddy touched her on the bum every day"

Finally, someone asked the child how and when the dad touched her on the bum. 

"When I sit on the swing and he pushes me"

This may or may not be an apochryphal story, but to me it does demonstrate the need for absolutely scrupulous questioning of the victim, not to denigrate, not to vilify, not to blame or get them to change the story, but to be absolutely sure what the facts are before going to court. 

I think Toby Willis is guilty, too, but I do believe that sometimes, just sometimes, facts are misunderstood in a rush to judgement.

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Meh, I'm going to try to keep an open mind as this develops.  I have to admit that I only watched perhaps 10 minutes of a single episode of the show and wasn't blown away by the music or the family. 

 I do dislike people being railroaded by sloppy reporting will reserve judgement until more facts come out.  However, at this point I have to say that:

  • the charges are appalling,
  • these days someone hitch-hiking pretty much says "fleeing" to me,
  • the wife's statement distancing herself from Toby Willis is quite damning, and
  • it wouldn't surprise me at all if he is guilty as hell.  

The hearing is supposed to be today so we should have more information soon.

@Blup, you say you are in Europe.  Out of idle curiosity, why are you so interested in this particular case?  Is the Willis TV show being shown in Europe and does the family band have a wide following there? 

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Yes, if anyone hears anything, would appreciate an update.    

  I was surprised at Brenda's statement.   She'd struck me as a 'stand by your man' wife - good for her for putting the kids first. 

 And who picks up hitchhikers nowadays?   That's scary stuff.   Maybe I'm just chicken.  I might stop by someone broken down and ask if they had someone called, but sure wouldn't offer them a ride. 

Edited by SweetLaurel
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5 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

My mind isn't made up, I didn't even say anything about Toby Willis specifically. I was strictly talking about the sickening attitude of the author of that article. I'm a strong believer in the presumption of innocence in court. If his case went to trial and I was in the jury pool, I would honestly say that I have been following the case in the media and I think he's probably guilty, and then I wouldn't be chosen.

But I just can't listen to anything a child-rape-apologist says about anything. Once I read that, I knew this person did not deserve my respect or consideration.

I do not understand why such a simple concept is so hard for some to grasp.

It has nothing to do with whether a particular individual committed a specific act.  It has everything to do with the reality that once a person is on record as being an apologist for this they have zero credibility and IMO are monsters pushing their own heinous agenda.  

And innocent until proven guilty is a legal state.  While I don't condone witch hunts based on nothing, no one is obligated to give those accused of child rape the benefit of the doubt until they are found legally guilty.  

Why does this kind of thing keep needing to be said?

If I had kept reading before posting I'd have saved the time as @Buzzard said it for me, but better.  

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Just because something doesn't leave bruises doesn't mean it wasn't violent. Since it takes the psyche infinitely longer to heal from violence than the body, emotional violence is far more damaging. 

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2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 

@Blup, you say you are in Europe.  Out of idle curiosity, why are you so interested in this particular case?  Is the Willis TV show being shown in Europe and does the family band have a wide following there? 

Yes, both TLC series where shown in Europe. Discovery channel, TLC and National Geographic are in the standard TV packages of most providers. Sometimes the shows are too American for my taste, but luckily they are nowadays making shows in Europe as well. Don't know if they are broadcasted in America as well. I think it is good that countries see what is the custom in other countries.

Religion over here isn't advertised as some of these reality TV -- a better term is docu soap -- shows. The Willis Clan does it in a way which is tolerable. But I was hooked by there music. I don't like mainstream and over the years learned of country, Irish and other music in different countries over the world. I especially like the combination of voice and old instruments. From the Facebook messenger (?) live  cast I got the impression that they have a large fan base in Europe mainly because of the TLC shows. There were lots of questions when they would do a tour in other Europe countries beside Ireland.

Does this answer your questions?

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Just now, Blup said:

Yes, both TLC series where shown in Europe. Discovery channel, TLC and National Geographic are in the standard TV packages of most providers. Sometimes the shows are too American for my taste, but luckily they are nowadays making shows in Europe as well. Don't know if they are broadcasted in America as well. I think it is good that countries see what is the custom in other countries.

Religion over here isn't advertised as some of these reality TV -- a better term is docu soap -- shows. The Willis Clan does it in a way which is tolerable. But I was hooked by there music. I don't like mainstream and over the years learned of country, Irish and other music in different countries over the world. I especially like the combination of voice and old instruments. From the Facebook messenger (?) live  cast I got the impression that they have a large fan base in Europe mainly because of the TLC shows. There were lots of questions when they would do a tour in other Europe countries beside Ireland.

Does this answer your questions?

Ireland and the Netherlands seem to be where the majority of the Europe fanbase are, Ireland especially.

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6 minutes ago, Blup said:

I think it is good that countries see what is the custom in other countries.

Just so you know, I can't think of one show that portrays anything customary. In general, they are on TV because they are different from the mainstream. That's what makes them interesting to watch.

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On 9/20/2016 at 10:25 AM, daisyd681 said:

I don't think that the little couple are above reproach. 

I do, and I am a crusty 61 year old woman. I have watched from the beginning, every episode, long before the children were adopted. The show was not created to exploit the children. This show is TLC's saving grace, as far as I am concerned.

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2 minutes ago, MorningMist said:

Ireland and the Netherlands seem to be where the majority of the Europe fanbase are, Ireland especially.

Unfortunately some sources are now closed or private. But I remember Spain, Norway, Denmark and England mentioned as well. The Netherlands is often mentioned as the first European country for bands to start in Europe :). But with there music Ireland makes more sense.

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Lunch break - no court information yet???

 

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4 minutes ago, daisyd681 said:

Just so you know, I can't think of one show that portrays anything customary. In general, they are on TV because they are different from the mainstream. That's what makes them interesting to watch.

Exactly.  There is a reason none of us have camera crews following us as we work, clean the house, do laundry, watch tv, hang out online, walk our dogs...obey our cats...because we're boring.  There is no market for customary.

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3 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

This may or may not be an apochryphal story, but to me it does demonstrate the need for absolutely scrupulous questioning of the victim, not to denigrate, not to vilify, not to blame or get them to change the story, but to be absolutely sure what the facts are before going to court. 

No one is saying "don't question the victim", or ascertain all the facts - but that lawyer's article was all about "assume the victim is lying".  In this case, we know the victim is NOT a small girl in a possibly-apocryphal story, but someone real and alive, who is at least a teenager, and who has given enough evidence for the Police to believe them.  That lawyer's piece is saying "assume they're lying, or it's unfair on Willis" is disgusting, to me.

 

Edited by Lurky
accidentally quoted myself
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5 minutes ago, daisyd681 said:

Just so you know, I can't think of one show that portrays anything customary. In general, they are on TV because they are different from the mainstream. That's what makes them interesting to watch.

Yes, that is why I call them docu soap. Big drama. The shows are over the top, but still you see things which we find strange over here. For example the right to have guns and all the horrible shootings. Yes we have had some here as well. But most of them were by not looking to careful in who applied for permission. Another strange thing is medical care for everyone. Ok, over here it is going to far, but that will swing back to a more sustainable form. And a last example we don't understand why there are only two mayor parties running for president (and all the other electable jobs).

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