The Botkin Conference 2012

[Muriel]

(While giving his speech, the lights in the background suddenly began to flicker until they totally blacked out. The next thing you know, the electricity in the while room went off and we were left in semi-darkness. If Satan had a hand in this it apparently didn't work, because Mr. Botkin continued to talk, despite the lack of a microphone, until the people in the background finally got the electricity back on again.)

[formergothardite]

I think that was God who said "Let their be darkness so this idiot might stop talking", not Satan.

[Esther]

These people's belief in a literal Satan really weirds me out. How damn dumb can you be to believe that some supernatural being (presumably with horns?) cares enough about your little conference to - GASP - mess with the electricity?!

[nokidsmom]

These people's belief in a literal Satan really weirds me out. How damn dumb can you be to believe that some supernatural being (presumably with horns?) cares enough about your little conference to - GASP - mess with the electricity?!

Yep. Along come that devil with his horns, red suit, spiked tail, and pitchfork to mess with the electricity..... :lol:

Weirds me out too.

[IceTwinkie]

“Brave†can just join the roundup of usual suspects for creating unhealthy stereotypes for girls, along with Queen Victoria, Aristotle, June Cleaver, Rousseau, Rosie the Riveter, and Barbie.

This is a huge WTF. Seriously!?!? Queen Victoria was an unhealthy stereotype? And Rosie the Riveter? My grandmother went and worked at Hughes Aircraft out in Long Beach during WWII when my grandfather, who was already in the Navy, and her three oldest sons went off to war. She was left at home with three children under the age of 15. She worked to help provide for her family, she worked to support her husband and sons who were off fighting. Besides, what were these women supposed to do? Let their families starve? Wring their hands and worry about their men while they did without the necessary equipment needed to fight? In many cases there were simply not enough able bodied men to work in the factories. These women stepped up and did what was needed, they didn't sit at home being"feminine". My grandmother worked, raised 10 children, went to church and supported her community. She was a good christian woman in the truest sense, not some idealized simpering version of one.

[bananacat]

I just turned 27 recently and I have been having a sort of quarter-life crisis. But nothing makes me feel better about myself faster than seeing these poor women who are about my age but have done nothing. Sure, I'm worse off financially than I was a few years ago and this is the first time in my short life that I've ever gone backwards instead of forwards. But at least I'm not stuck at home worshiping my Daddy. I've gone to college and held down jobs and managed to pay all my bills and handle money in general. I've lived on my own and I'm even 100% responsible for the well-being of another life (although just a cat). I've dated and I've enjoyed sex. I've been in love and taken risks and worked through issues with guys in an adult way. And even though I've never been heartbroken, I've been rejected and felt disappointed and learned more about myself in the process. I should thank the Botkins for making me realize how much worse life could potentially be. It must be so stifling to be an adult but get treated as a child.

[Jezebel]

It must be the lights--Anna Sofia's hair is a weird shade of yellow.

Yes, it is. She definitely needs a cooler, more ash-blonde shade. And a hairbrush, as she's gone overboard with the tousled, "freshly-fucked" bedhead look. 'Tis not maidenly. :naughty: :lol:

(For the record, one of my idols is bright auburn hair dye. It looks so much better than the mouse brown/gray that would be my natural color.)

Henna is mine. I use a fine-sifted brand (Jamila summer crop) meant for body art, and it gives my graying dark-brown hair a really nice, deep mahogany shade (with bright copper "highlights," thanks to the white hairs). It also makes my hair much thicker and shinier.

I had been using chemical dyes for decades, and decided to try henna for a while in order to give my poor, abused scalp a rest. I don't think I'm going back.

[delilahdog11]

The Botkin girls do not look as if they are aging well. They are still pretty, but these pictures make them appear very lifeless and they seem to be very paunchy and bloated. Everyone has an off day or an off picture, so that may be what is going on in these pictures. It could also be that they need to brush their hair and their hair is making them look worn out and tired.

I can't imagine if I had been raised to cater to my brother and father then eventually my husband. To help them with their dreams, goals, and aspirations. Working to support them as leaders. If I had grown up in a fundy household maybe I wouldn't know that I wasn't doing anything to build my own life and identity.

My headship is a dedicated artist and the first year of our marriage was difficult because he would spend hours making art and I would sit around watching him. I would get so angry thinking all that I was doing was supporting his life and doing nothing for myself. He constantly encouraged me to find my own path and interests. Now we work along side each other doing our own projects. I feel that creation occurs best in concert with other people and he has credited his increase in creativity and in the creation of art because I inspire him when we are working along side each other. Equal partnerships, friendships, relationships are the key to my happiness. I can only imagine that these girls must

feel some lack of fulliment to not have their own lives and must suffer from the desire to be supported and encouraged in their own endevors. I don't know. I can only speak from my personal experience.

[gustava]

The Botkin girls do not look as if they are aging well. They are still pretty, but these pictures make them appear very lifeless and they seem to be very paunchy and bloated. Everyone has an off day or an off picture, so that may be what is going on in these pictures. It could also be that they need to brush their hair and their hair is making them look worn out and tired.

.

Except that they are wimmens and not gurls, I agree that they are looking a tad over-ripe on the vine. And I honestly don't understand why they tend to look a tad....well....slutty.

[Olive Plant]

This is the "conference" we discussed in the "Botkins Scraping the Bottom of the Fundie Lecture Circuit" thread, a couple of weeks back:

http://www.freejinger.org/viewtopic.php ... =botkin%2A

"Twas more of a one-night stand than a real conference - they were in Iowa visiting family, according to their cousin's blog. I suspect they just latched on to the local Kool-Aid distribution opportunities.

There's some new photos up on cousin's blog with Victoria and AS & E holding cousin's baby. Hair even more messy in those photos, but they're taken in a kitchen, so I'm not inclined to care.

I wonder if they stopped off in Iowa to visit family because they were already going to a conference, or they tacked on a conference to a family vacation so they could write it off. Either way, seems very calculated with all their family-is-super-important talk.

[Jezebel]

http://visionarydaughters.com/2012/07/c ... ess-please

• Resisting self-discipline, education, and training for the future in favor of outdoorsy hobbies: not all that brave.

Maybe those "outdoorsy hobbies" are really Merida's calling? Maybe the gifts your God has given her have nothing to do with being bookish, demure, compliant, and housebound?

• “Making things happen†in your life (instead of sitting around) by causing mayhem in others’: not all that brave.

When is "sitting around" a virtue? (Unless, of course, you're sitting zazen.)

I'm one of those women who makes things happen in my own life. And yes, there have been times when actively pursuing what is best for me has rattled some people's cages. They've had ideas about what I should want or do, and how I ought to behave, and some have taken it very personally when I did my own thing. But their ideas about how I should lead my life were all about them--their anxieties, their dreams, and their unquestioned assumptions about what is possible. They had nothing to do with me. And if I'd taken on the burden of their expectations, I wouldn't have done half the things I've done in my life.

But the funny thing is that after the initial "mayhem" dies down and they see the results of my actions, most people realize it was the right thing to do. That's when they start telling me how much they admire me for being "brave."

When is the last time the Botkin sisters made something happen in their own lives, instead of "sitting around" and having everything (including their books and speaking engagements) mapped out for them? Right. And am I to consider them "brave" for being so obedient and passive? LOL NO.

• Fighting for your own way over anything else: not all that brave.

This, coming from girls who do nothing but acquiesce to others' plans and dreams for them. And look what it's got them? Still unmarried, still wholly dependent upon their parents, still sheltered from the wider world, still children. Not all that brave.

Oh, sure, their father's patriarchal ideas (that they in turn espouse) go against the mainstream, so maybe they tell themselves they're "brave" for going against "the culture" by being SAHDs. But they're not. What serious risks have they knowingly taken on by that? Their parents will shelter them until marriage, they will have enough admirers of their books to make them feel important, and while their controversial views are guaranteed to anger people outside their religious/social milieu, that's okay--because they're only interested in engaging people within their milieu. You don't see them pushing to get onto secular talk shows, or talking to the mainstream press, do you? No--they only want to speak to and associate with the already-converted. It's safer, that way.

In other words: definitely not brave.

As for me, I will always fight for my own way when others try to dictate what my way ought to be. I will not be shut up in a box of someone else's design, for their convenience and psychological comfort. End of story.

• Confessing and actually repenting for her catastrophic mistake at the end: very brave.

• Realizing that her mother was a person too, who could be terribly hurt by her daughter’s selfishness: extremely brave, for a kids’ movie about parent-child conflict.

But Elinor realizes that her daughter is a person, too--if anything, she's the one who undergoes the greatest change in the movie. She comes to realize that Merida is her own person, with her own gifts and desires--not just a pawn, to be married off as part of a power game, or in the name of family "duty." The relationship between Merida and her mother goes from an authoritarian, control-based one to one of mutual respect and much greater closeness.

So by focusing only on Merida's changed attitude, they've missed a very important part of the movie. Merida was reckless and made a terrible mistake, but Elinor was wrong, too. And in order to restore order and bring on the happy ending, mother and daughter had to come together, cooperate, and move beyond the authoritarian parent-child relationship into a reciprocal, mutually-respectful, adult one.

• Refusing to marry any of her suitors: Sorry, we’re saving our thoughts on this one for the next post.

IIRC, Merida is 16 years old. SIXTEEN. And she is told that she is to marry, not because it will make her happy, not because it's what she wants, and not because she cares at all for any of her acceptable suitors--but for strictly political/dynastic reasons. It's her duty, no matter how miserable it might make her to do it. She's merely a strategic object, a pawn, and she's supposed to simply roll over and accept that because her parents say so?

Yeah, I can imagine the Botkins' scintillating thoughts on that one. So I'll pre-emptively offer a "fuck you."

Yes, there were some points to her example that we were happy to see, but honestly, doing no more than owning up to and fixing the mistakes she herself made hardly makes her a hero. We’ve seen little toasters braver than this.

I wonder what the last big, potentially-ruinous mistake either AS or Elizabeth ever made was. I mean the kind of mistake that, despite your best efforts to atone for and fix it, could still be a huge life-changer. The kind of mistake where someone could end up badly hurt or dead, where you could end up broke or homeless, or even where you end up wrecking a relationship with the person you love most. The kind of mistake where there is no easy remedy, where things will get a lot worse before they get better, and where nothing will ever be the same afterward (especially you).

Yeah. I thought so.

I could argue that their catastrophic mistake has been allowing themselves to be used as their father's decorative display for patriarchal SAHDhood. I know that if either or both ever chose to leave, they do have family who would very likely help them out. But either they don't yet fully realize how catastrophic that decision has been (I suspect turning 30 while still unmarried will do it, especially for AS), or else the alternatives are too scary and uncomfortable to face. Either way: yes, toasters are braver than the Botkin girls. And not just animated ones.

[Little_Eyes]

The photos make me wish I was good at LOLDouging photos. Alas, I cannot come up with a witty enough thought bubble about modesty, messy hair, and a hairbrush. I suppose we all have our crosses to bear.

And I saw Brave. I thought it was a story about maturity; the maturity to forge your own path and acknowledge that you make mistakes along the way. I saw Merida as a really great example of that. I guess I'm thrilled, also, that she didn't have a prince charming to make a "good" film. And that her hair was AWESOME!

[delilahdog11]

Except that they are wimmens and not gurls, I agree that they are looking a tad over-ripe on the vine. And I honestly don't understand why they tend to look a tad....well....slutty.

They do indeed look a bit slutty. I know this has been discussed under the Maxwell engagement thread, but maybe, just maybe these wimmena are purposely avoiding marriage. In my opinion, which counts for dick since I have no idea about their family life, but I think they could possibly be avoiding marriage because they have an emotionally intitmde relationship with their father. Maybe they think no man could measure up to or replace their father.

[delilahdog11]

Maybe those "outdoorsy hobbies" are really Merida's calling? Maybe the gifts your God has given her have nothing to do with being bookish, demure, compliant, and housebound?

When is "sitting around" a virtue? (Unless, of course, you're sitting zazen.)

I can't wait for sitting around to become a virtue because then I am sure I will become sainted!

None of these fundy families offering guidance and/or advice have mature enough viewpoints for me to take anything they say with any amount of seriousness. Damn it. I wish I need learned how to think critically because it would be so much easier to be told how to live my life by other people. I thought they were suppose to be following Jesus' teaching, not the teaching of people from fundy royalty. These people piss me off.

[Olive Plant]

The Botkinettes need to re-read their bible. Deborah ruled over men, Ruth 'followed her heart,' Abigail rebelled against her husband, and so on.

Yeah, and there was also Rahab the prostitute. If prostitutes don't qualify as "beautiful bimbos," then what are they? Somehow, I doubt the spies of Israel were visiting a prostitute for her biting commentary on the city fortifications. Also, Rahab defied her city elders and flat-out lied to them, but got to be Jesus' however-great grandmother anyway. But I guess, to the Botkins, if you're defying the right kind of authority, it's OK, at least if it's in the Bible (?) Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: I can be a prostitute as long as I harbor the right kind of spies.

Then there's Tamar, who was not actually a prostitute, but pretended to be one in order to get pregnant. Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: if you wanna pass on the right genes, tricking a dude who used to be your father-in-law into sexing you up by being a beautiful bimbo is A-OK.

I would venture that hammering a tent peg into a dude's skull a la Jael would put a girl in the "tomboyish wildcat" category, at least if this story were a Disney princess rather than a Biblical character. Oh, but I forgot, putting up a tent is a woman's job... or it was, back then... so this was a very feminine thing to do. Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: if I went out and killed someone who was my enemy, but who was not actually attacking me, with my North Face camping gear this would not actually put me in the "tomboyish wildcat" category. It would make me a heroine.

And, yes, Abigail completely disses her husband: "Abigail acted quickly... But she did not tell her husband Nabal... When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. She fell at his feet and said: “Pardon your servant, my lord, and let me speak to you; hear what your servant has to say. Please pay no attention, my lord, to that wicked man Nabal. He is just like his name—his name means Fool , and folly goes with him." Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: if your man is a blowhard idiot, do what you think is right and you might be able to save yourself... though not him, because he may die anyway.

[wallfly]

Yeah, and there was also Rahab the prostitute. If prostitutes don't qualify as "beautiful bimbos," then what are they? Somehow, I doubt the spies of Israel were visiting a prostitute for her biting commentary on the city fortifications. Also, Rahab defied her city elders and flat-out lied to them, but got to be Jesus' however-great grandmother anyway. But I guess, to the Botkins, if you're defying the right kind of authority, it's OK, at least if it's in the Bible (?) Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: I can be a prostitute as long as I harbor the right kind of spies.

Then there's Tamar, who was not actually a prostitute, but pretended to be one in order to get pregnant. Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: if you wanna pass on the right genes, tricking a dude who used to be your father-in-law into sexing you up by being a beautiful bimbo is A-OK.

I would venture that hammering a tent peg into a dude's skull a la Jael would put a girl in the "tomboyish wildcat" category, at least if this story were a Disney princess rather than a Biblical character. Oh, but I forgot, putting up a tent is a woman's job... or it was, back then... so this was a very feminine thing to do. Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: if I went out and killed someone who was my enemy, but who was not actually attacking me, with my North Face camping gear this would not actually put me in the "tomboyish wildcat" category. It would make me a heroine.

And, yes, Abigail completely disses her husband: "Abigail acted quickly... But she did not tell her husband Nabal... When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. She fell at his feet and said: “Pardon your servant, my lord, and let me speak to you; hear what your servant has to say. Please pay no attention, my lord, to that wicked man Nabal. He is just like his name—his name means Fool , and folly goes with him." Lesson learned from this Biblical woman: if your man is a blowhard idiot, do what you think is right and you might be able to save yourself... though not him, because he may die anyway.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[slickcat79]

These people's belief in a literal Satan really weirds me out. How damn dumb can you be to believe that some supernatural being (presumably with horns?) cares enough about your little conference to - GASP - mess with the electricity?!

Have you ever seen Jesus Camp? I'm pretty sure those nutballs spend a considerable amount of time praying over the sound system at the conventions center. Wouldn't want anyone to miss them speaking in tongues :?

This is a huge WTF. Seriously!?!? Queen Victoria was an unhealthy stereotype? And Rosie the Riveter? My grandmother went and worked at Hughes Aircraft out in Long Beach during WWII when my grandfather, who was already in the Navy, and her three oldest sons went off to war. She was left at home with three children under the age of 15. She worked to help provide for her family, she worked to support her husband and sons who were off fighting. Besides, what were these women supposed to do? Let their families starve? Wring their hands and worry about their men while they did without the necessary equipment needed to fight? In many cases there were simply not enough able bodied men to work in the factories. These women stepped up and did what was needed, they didn't sit at home being"feminine". My grandmother worked, raised 10 children, went to church and supported her community. She was a good christian woman in the truest sense, not some idealized simpering version of one.

Wait, ALL those people are negative stereotypes? I'd agree with them on a couple of cases, but seriously, how are Queen Victoria, June Cleaver, Rosie, and Barbie alike in any way? It makes me wonder what woman actually would make a good role model in BotkinLand.

[Deleted05]

Thy really are running out of topics, aren't they? I can't help but wonder what sort of traffic they get to that blog now. Hopefully people are starting to see that SAHD-good is simply a program for spinster-hood, and are shying away from the Botkinettes left and right. It has been a while since they addressed anything from the perspective of a real person.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I was thinking that both of them have hairstyles that are a little too casual, or even sexy for the image that they are trying to portray. I think the reason the tousled look shows up a lot is because you're meant to look like you just tumbled out of bed with someone :? I think they're both pretty, but they kind of look like they should be in an 80s TV show with the combination of big hair and outdated clothes. Like fundie Saved by the Bell.

I know. They both look quite beautiful in this picture, other than the hair.

I don't get why so many fundies cannot figure out the very simple machine that is a hairbrush?

[mirele]

Yes, it is. She definitely needs a cooler, more ash-blonde shade. And a hairbrush, as she's gone overboard with the tousled, "freshly-fucked" bedhead look. 'Tis not maidenly. :naughty: :lol:

Henna is mine. I use a fine-sifted brand (Jamila summer crop) meant for body art, and it gives my graying dark-brown hair a really nice, deep mahogany shade (with bright copper "highlights," thanks to the white hairs). It also makes my hair much thicker and shinier.

I had been using chemical dyes for decades, and decided to try henna for a while in order to give my poor, abused scalp a rest. I don't think I'm going back.

I've considered henna, but at this point in time, given I dye every 7-8 weeks on average, my hair is already thick, and it's waist-length, and I've got a dye shade that works well, I've stayed with commercial dyes. But if something changes, I know it's out there and available.

The more I look at those pics of A. S. I have to wonder if this was a hair dye experiment gone bad or something. I've been there, sometimes you just have to live with it...although in A. S.'s case, it's probably not because you don't have the money right away to fix it. Or you had to go to work the next morning and that decidedly unnatural blonde color was not going to cut it (don't ask). That was a mess.

[Ex 2x2]

Agreeing with the poster above who said it was great that Merida didn't need a prince to be happy! :clap: Also agreeing with the one who pointed out that Merida's mom was wrong. She realized that she was wrong. She changed.

The other thing that I loved about the movie was Merida's dad. How great was it that he didn't put his daughter in a box, just b/c she was a girl? Of course that is something the Botkins wouldn't be able to relate to at all.

I typically don't like kids movies and only sit through them b/c of my children, but this one I loved.

[hoipolloi]

If the Botkinettes are so brilliant why do they always do critiques of cartoons? Is that all they do - sit around the house all day watching Disney stuff to get blogging content?

And why isn't la famille Botkin front & center at Dougie's food conference? They eat and someone must cook in that house, therefore they're at least as expert as any of the speakers (visionforumministries.org/events/food/001/speakers.aspx)

[Deleted07]

WTF is with the 'tangled' blog post before the Brave one?

We will be unusually blunt, because we know you are not a real person with feelings; you are the carefully written, cast, voiced, sketched, sculpted, scanned, painted, rigged, animated, rendered, and composited brainchild of John Lasseter, Glen Keane, and the Disney scriptwriting committee. We’re talking to you, polygons.

And not only were you meticulously handcrafted by others: Your entire universe was built around you, detail by detail, by these same imagineers. Your particular situation, down to Flynn’s serendipitous appearance in your window – your moral dilemmas, down to your conflicts with your mother – the characters you ran into, down to the last pub thug – didn’t just happen, but were deliberated over by a bunch of businessmen for approximately ten years. Everything about your world, including the ethical system by which it operates, came out of somebody’s head.

erm, reality check Botkin LADIES.... Everything about *YOUR* world, including the ethical system by which it operates, came out of somebody’s head!!!

SHEESH... How are these grown women so dense!?!?!?!

[Olive Plant]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Seriously, apart from the theoretical Proverbs 31 woman, who isn't an actual person, is there ANY Biblical role model that fits stay-at-home daughterdom? Or the stay-at-home female anything? Because in all the Bibles I've read, the only women who are part of a real story (and not just mentioned in a footnote) are doing non-SAHD stuff. Esther's becoming part of harem to save her people with her beauty; Eve's eating the apple and getting kicked out of Paradise; Deborah is running an army; Sarah is lying to the Pharaoh and temporarily shacking up with his harem; Rebekah is favoring one son over another and causing a lot of strife in the process; Rachel and Leah are seeing who can milk the most spawn out of their husband's... milk; various concubines are in and out of favor; the other Tamar is raped by her brother in her own house; Dinah is raped while visiting friends; the daughters of Lot have sex with their father; Gomer is a wandering whore; Zipporah circumcises her son (usually a man's job) and insults her husband gravely; Bathsheba is an adulteress; Miriam the prophetess is struck with leprosy for her outspokeness; Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock and doesn't see fit to explain this to her fiance; Elizabeth contradicts the elders and speaks before her husband, who has been struck dumb for his insolence; Anna the prophetess is out at the temple having visions; Lydia, the seller of purple, has her own household...

Which one of these women is a good role model for SAHDs? And can someone please make a cartoon compliation of all the women of the Bible and submit it to the Botkins for review?

[Linnea]

“Brave†can just join the roundup of usual suspects for creating unhealthy stereotypes for girls, along with Queen Victoria, Aristotle, June Cleaver, Rousseau, Rosie the Riveter, and Barbie.

Wait, what? Do they ever explain their particular beefs with Aristotle and Rousseau? Both were pretty patriarchal, IIRC.

I wonder who they count as creating healthy role models for girls, besides themselves.