Dealing with loss of faith

[theologygeek]

I'm dealing with a lot of religious guilt right now. I know it's illogical to think that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God, but that's kind of where things are right now for me. Then there's the whole gay thing... I made out with a girl recently (I'm a girl, in case it wasn't clear) and it was awesome but then I kind of had a breakdown and cried to total strangers about how I was going to hell for being gay and because I didn't want to think about that anymore I ended up getting so drunk that I got brought home in a police car and have huge gaps in my memory from that night.

God is blamed for everything, when man put God in the position to be blamed. He never said you couldn't kiss a girl. Men said He said it. Many people stop believing in God because they can't believe, love, or put faith in that kind of God. A God who advocates beating children, who wiped out an entire civilization, who throws the gays in hell when they can't help being gay, and the list goes on. My sister and one of her sons are atheists. Their reasoning is that the bible portrays God as a monster, and that is not someone they want to worship. But neither of them took the time to really study. I studied the bible for close to 30 years, along with bible history and verse interpretation. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I will say this. When you really get into studying with a clear mind, wiping away all that you have been taught, you see everything in a different light.

Did you know that Paul made up a word in Corinthians which was later interpreted to mean gay? No one, since Scripture was first interpreted, can say with 100% certainty what the word meant. http://www.religioustolerance.org/homarsen.htm

This is what God had to say about people who told you what the bible means, and every person thereafter, until the end of time, who teaches people about God:

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

And this is what the fruits are defined as:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

That last verse I posted kind of wipes out the teachers and heads of every Christian denomination, and also most pastors of independent churches, huh?

[QAF_Rocks]

God is blamed for everything, when man put God in the position to be blamed. He never said you couldn't kiss a girl. Men said He said it. Many people stop believing in God because they can't believe, love, or put faith in that kind of God. A God who advocates beating children, who wiped out an entire civilization, who throws the gays in hell when they can't help being gay, and the list goes on. My sister and one of her sons are atheists. Their reasoning is that the bible portrays God as a monster, and that is not someone they want to worship. But neither of them took the time to really study.

[theologygeek]

I'm sorry, but this is such a huge misconception about atheists. Atheists don't not believe in the biblical deity because Yahweh is a "big old meanie." It wouldn't matter if Yahweh was a warm, cuddly bunny. There's still no reason to believe that Yahweh exists.

If your sister and her son believe in the biblical deity and just don't want to worship it because it's mean, then they are not atheists. Atheists don't believe in any gods or goddesses whatsoever. It doesn't matter if the deities in question are nice or cruel. Their personalities have nothing to do with their existence.

Atheists shouldn't have to "take the time to really study" the biblical god. After all, the vast majority of Christians don't bother to study the Hindu gods and goddesses, or the Native American deities, or any of the thousands of other gods worshipped in various parts of the world. They dismiss them as false from the outset. They don't spend years studying their scriptures or trying to understand the intricacies of their theology.

Why should atheists have to spend years studying one god from one particular culture so they can spin it as warm and loving when there is no evidence that any such things as gods and goddesses exist in the first place? Unless your sister and her son are extremely unintelligent, surely this thought has occurred to them.

The fact that the biblical god is cruel and sadistic makes some Christians question what they are taught, but that's a starting point, not an end point. The cognitive dissonance raised by the portrayal of a cruel, evil god raises questions, but that's not where the vast majority of atheists stop questioning. The end point comes when they see no reason to believe in gods at all.

If someone wants to believe in a nice god, there are plenty to choose from. In fact, many liberal religious people in our society make up their own god, call it "God," and proceed to worship it. Their god is warm and fuzzy and doesn't torture people in hell. That's all well and good, but there's no more evidence for happy-sunshine-rainbow gods than any of the others.

Where did I say that atheists are atheists because they believe God is mean? I said "many people stop believing in God because..." That is a statement of fact. I've been in enough study over the years to see it in real life. Then I gave my sister as an example of someone who is an atheist because of that reason. She's an atheist. She does not believe in any god.

[QAF_Rocks]

Where did I say that atheists are atheists because they believe God is mean? I said "many people stop believing in God because..." That is a statement of fact. I've been in enough study over the years to see it in real life. Then I gave my sister as an example of someone who is an atheist because of that reason. She's an atheist. She does not believe in any god.

Did I misunderstand you? You said here:

My sister and one of her sons are atheists. Their reasoning is that the bible portrays God as a monster, and that is not someone they want to worship. But neither of them took the time to really study.

Now worship and belief are two different things. It's possible to believe in the biblical god and not worship it because you think it's a monster. It sounded like your sister and her son made a choice not to worship the biblical god because they think it's mean. Not because they don't think it's real.

I'm not denying that the "problem of evil" is one thing that gets many people started on the path to atheism, but as I said, it's only a starting point. Getting to atheism involves a complete lack of belief in deities, and in most cases, in all aspects of the supernatural. The character of the deities does not matter.

Many atheists do speak hypothetically about the biblical deity, saying that if it existed, it would be nothing to worship. But that's completely separate from not believing in it.

[hagia sophia]

The fact that the biblical god is cruel and sadistic makes some Christians question what they are taught, but that's a starting point, not an end point. (snip) The end point comes when they see no reason to believe in gods at all.

Thank you. That fits me exactly. I'm going to remember this.

The hardest thing for me giving up faith was realizing that there was no one "out there" with some over arching plan that will make all things "work together for good." That bad things will happen for no reason, I can't just pray and hand it over and let god fix it. That I have responsibility and have to do my best, and sometimes my best won't be good enough and might even make it worse.

And even though that sucks it's real and reality is awesome!

[kb2]

Afterwards, people told my dad the reason she died was because he lacked faith. Then it turned into she lacked faith.

This has got to be one of the most cruel things people can do--comforting themselves that something bad will never happen to them because they are special and do X, while hurting those going through the bad event out of selfishness. I'm sorry.

That I have responsibility and have to do my best, and sometimes my best won't be good enough and might even make it worse.

[RR88]

For me, the end of faith has been mostly filled with joy and relief rather than mourning. YMMV.

[theologygeek]

Did I misunderstand you? You said here:

Now worship and belief are two different things. It's possible to believe in the biblical god and not worship it because you think it's a monster. It sounded like your sister and her son made a choice not to worship the biblical god because they think it's mean. Not because they don't think it's real.

I'm not denying that the "problem of evil" is one thing that gets many people started on the path to atheism, but as I said, it's only a starting point. Getting to atheism involves a complete lack of belief in deities, and in most cases, in all aspects of the supernatural. The character of the deities does not matter.

Many atheists do speak hypothetically about the biblical deity, saying that if it existed, it would be nothing to worship. But that's completely separate from not believing in it.

I should have said "they don't want to worship nor believe in."

[QAF_Rocks]

I should have said "they don't want to worship nor believe in."

Okay, but that's the crux of the problem. It sounded like you thought that your sister and her son stopped their deconversion process at "That Bible God sure is mean. We don't want to believe in him." You said they haven't really studied, and therefore seem to be implying that they really don't understand the nature of the god in question, and if they just delved into Christian theology the way you have (I'm assuming from your user name that you study theology), then they would be convinced that the biblical deity isn't cruel or evil.

I'm an atheist, and I know plenty of atheists who have deconverted from Christianity, and trust me, the process is a lot more complicated then just not wanting to believe in something. I'm an atheist because I see absolutely no reason to believe that gods and goddesses are real, regardless of their purported personalities. Thinking that a particular god is not worthy of worship is actually quite beside the point, since people who want to believe in warm-fuzzy gods can invent warm-fuzzy gods to worship. Atheists don't see any reason to worship gods at all, and that's because we don't think they're real. There's a big distinction between the two.

Clearly something convinced your sister and her son that gods were not real. Coming to the realization that Yahweh is a monster (as portrayed in the Bible) might have started them down the road of doubt and skepticism, but it couldn't have been the ending point. To arrive at atheism requires more steps. From what I've seen, it usually goes something like this:

1. "Boy, God sure does an awful lot of evil, cruel things in the Bible."

2. "God is supposed to be all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful."

3. "This doesn't fit the things depicted in the Bible or the real world."

4. "Hmmm, maybe this Bible isn't all it's cracked up to be."

5. "Maybe the Bible writers were just ordinary human beings."

6. "Maybe the Bible is just an ordinary book."

7. "If the Bible writers were just writing down their legends, what makes me think that God is real?"

8. "Maybe God isn't real after all. Maybe all gods and goddesses aren't real, and holy books are just ancient people writing down stories they believed at the time."

There are lots of variations of course, but typically dissatisfaction with the Bible is just something that jump starts the process.

[QAF_Rocks]

Thank you. That fits me exactly. I'm going to remember this.

The hardest thing for me giving up faith was realizing that there was no one "out there" with some over arching plan that will make all things "work together for good." That bad things will happen for no reason, I can't just pray and hand it over and let god fix it. That I have responsibility and have to do my best, and sometimes my best won't be good enough and might even make it worse.

And even though that sucks it's real and reality is awesome!

You're welcome! And I do think there are some benefits to not believing in an omni-benevolent deity with a plan. For example, when something really horrible happens, say, if your child is diagnosed with cancer, you don't have to torture yourself with questions of "Why me? Did I do something wrong? Am I being punished? Maybe if I do such-and-such, God will save my child." And if your child dies, you don't have to reconcile that with the notion of a loving deity. Sometimes awful things just happen, and they're out of your control, but you don't have to worry that you did something to cause them, or worry that your child has been sent to hell, or anything like that.

[hagia sophia]

Sometimes awful things just happen, and they're out of your control, but you don't have to worry that you did something to cause them

Amen! ;)