What do you think of this courtship story?

[makepeace]

stewardoftheking.blogspot.com/2010/06/courtship.html

This courtship story seems a little creepy. Written by the groom, it only presents one side of the story so there is no way of knowing what the bride was told or thought.

Quote: "During this time I went through Abby’s entire Facebook account and blog trying to learn as much as I could about her."

This guy meets a girl, has some brief conversation with her, stalks her online presence (ok, most people probably do this nowadays), tries to add her father on facebook, sends her father a message on facebook about courting her, meets her father:

"Much to my surprise, he agreed that I could “get to know†Abby as long as I didn’t tip my hand that I had any special interest in her. I did not mention that up to this point I had seen Abby less than half a dozen times in my entire lifetime and knew almost nothing about her."

Father agrees, he sets up opportunities for the young man to brieftly interact with his daughter, then the man meets with the father and mother again to discuss his intentions....

and only after all of this, is the daughter informed!!!! or so it seems from this story

[Bellatrix]

It was the part about guys always "checking out girls" that made me ping a bit at first. Then the whole lie to his family when he went to meet up with the future bride's father: he used the "go hunting" scenario. Come on, that is exactly what fundie men do: hunting for a Missus to be fruitful with them.

"Wanting my family to remain unaware that anything was afoot, I took the truck and left the house early one morning to “go huntingâ€. Instead, I drove all the way to Raleigh to meet Mr. Hinds for breakfast."

[chaotic life]

He sounds far too much like Mark Driscoll and very Mars Hill to me. This is precisely what is going WRONG in the courtship model these people are embracing with all of their hearts and minds. Great, he thinks he's a decent guy. However, no where in that story do you see this guy actually focused on HER. He doesn't meet the definition of Love set for by Paul by his own writing of the courtship.

To me, it's creepy. It reeks of girls as a commodity and sounds like something that would come out of India.

I did a courtship without setting out to intentionally do one. Our courtship was NOTHING like that one, and frankly I disagree with his take on how all men fit into his categories in their view towards marriage. However, that sounds like something Mark Driscoll would say or write and I happen to think Driscoll is a misogynistic pig. This guy channels that same feel to me.

[BravaAmica]

stewardoftheking.blogspot.com/2010/06/courtship.html

This courtship story seems a little creepy. Written by the groom, it only presents one side of the story so there is no way of knowing what the bride was told or thought.

Quote: "During this time I went through Abby’s entire Facebook account and blog trying to learn as much as I could about her."

This guy meets a girl, has some brief conversation with her, stalks her online presence (ok, most people probably do this nowadays), tries to add her father on facebook, sends her father a message on facebook about courting her, meets her father:

"Much to my surprise, he agreed that I could “get to know†Abby as long as I didn’t tip my hand that I had any special interest in her. I did not mention that up to this point I had seen Abby less than half a dozen times in my entire lifetime and knew almost nothing about her."

Father agrees, he sets up opportunities for the young man to brieftly interact with his daughter, then the man meets with the father and mother again to discuss his intentions....

and only after all of this, is the daughter informed!!!! or so it seems from this story

These courtship scenarios remind me of many historical romance novels- the hero is done with being a rogue/needs to produce an heir or he'll lose his inheritance/ wants regular sex and it's better to marry than to burn. So he goes out into Society [in the above groom's case, church] and chooses a young chit fresh out of the school room who meets his two-dimensional criteria. He spends about a chapter watching her at parties. His friend chide him for wanting to become "leg shackled."

Perhaps he will introduce himself to her father and brother at one of these functions. If he's really confident, he'll introduce himself to her mother. He will make his intentions known, the father will give permission or not. The chat will include a few jibes about how she is spirited and not just anyone can tame her. Sometimes the father will be like the one above and say, "You must get to know her first." If the father is really liberal, he'll look at the prospective son-in-law and say, "I've promised her she could choose her own husband. I give you permission to court her but the final decision rests with her."

All that's missing is the heroine's indomitable spirit, her being educated like a boy [she can read!!], and her passionate monologue to her lady's maid how she will marry for love alone.

I *can't* be the only FJer who's noticed these parallels.

[JMarie]

There was dancing at the two weddings they attended?

[GenerationCedarchip]

Wow - that is seriously creepy. I found the version of courtship at my old fundie church too high-pressure (hang out in groups, but don't go on a date unless you're planning to move toward marriage), but this goes waaay beyond that.

[Mela99]

Hmm. Interesting.

Isn't he being a bad boy by courting WITHOUT A JOB AND DEBT FREE HOUSE??? For shame.

Are they married yet?

[Angri-la]

I think the same thing I do when I read any account of The Patriarchal Courtship Model™:

I am sad for people who are getting married without mutual informed consent, being forced to get to know one another with an adult or sister-mom as chaperone, and the woman being treated like chattel. This is not a "return to the good old days", because only upper class Victorians courted similarly, but the Patriarchs™ have bastardized this, just as they do with the Bible: Everything must support their narrow worldview.

I hope they are not married, but if they are, that they got to know each other, and the woman did not have to say OBEY.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Utterly out of my realm of experience (even though I know people who have arranged introductions and date only for marriage purposes).

Where do they actually get a chance to know something about each other?

I could brag that I never checked out the Facebook account or blog of any guy that I had thought about dating...but that's because I met hubby in 1988. Otherwise, if I was dating someone today, I'd google them.

The part where he introduces himself to the girl's father reminded me of a Seinfeld scene:

- fast forward to 2:48. "Hi, I'm George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents".

[Angri-la]

Utterly out of my realm of experience (even though I know people who have arranged introductions and date only for marriage purposes).

Where do they actually get a chance to know something about each other?

I could brag that I never checked out the Facebook account or blog of any guy that I had thought about dating...but that's because I met hubby in 1988. Otherwise, if I was dating someone today, I'd google them.

My personal experience with the bolded? We didn't. I married someone I did not know, because I was supposed to; it was my "salvation", and I was a teenager, not just drunk on, but bathing in the koolaid. I am glad, at least, that my fundie husband didn't know about sex either, so I didn't have to go from stolen peck/handsex to the full happy meal deal in one night.

There was no facebook or google in current form in those ancient days of the 90s, but I doubt I would have learned anything: my parents did not have a television, the newspaper, the radio, they most certainly would not have had the internet.

[celticmyst08]

Holy shit, that guy is a massive narcissist. The whole time it was "me, me, look at me, I am so awesome" and absolutely nothing about Abby. She just sounds like an object or a commodity to him. So creepy...=/

[shrewlu]

These courtship scenarios remind me of many historical romance novels- the hero is done with being a rogue/needs to produce an heir or he'll lose his inheritance/ wants regular sex and it's better to marry than to burn. So he goes out into Society [in the above groom's case, church] and chooses a young chit fresh out of the school room who meets his two-dimensional criteria. He spends about a chapter watching her at parties. His friend chide him for wanting to become "leg shackled."

Perhaps he will introduce himself to her father and brother at one of these functions. If he's really confident, he'll introduce himself to her mother. He will make his intentions known, the father will give permission or not. The chat will include a few jibes about how she is spirited and not just anyone can tame her. Sometimes the father will be like the one above and say, "You must get to know her first." If the father is really liberal, he'll look at the prospective son-in-law and say, "I've promised her she could choose her own husband. I give you permission to court her but the final decision rests with her."

All that's missing is the heroine's indomitable spirit, her being educated like a boy [she can read!!], and her passionate monologue to her lady's maid how she will marry for love alone.

I *can't* be the only FJer who's noticed these parallels.

You're not.

Fundie courtship stories always sound like historical romance to me, for just the reasons you mentioned. Mostly because the woman and her personality, her needs and wants, is almost irrelevant to the entire thing. Historical romances are (in my readings) always about what the *hero* needs, whether that be an heir, a pretty face or whatever. And that is how I see fundie courtship - the men (father, prospective suitor) are looking out only for what the men need - to get the daughter married off, have children, be an "obedient" wife.

Just once I'd like to see one of those courtship stories start off with something about having gotten to know her (in a fundie approved manner) by hearing her speak or learning some of her likes BEFORE talking to the dad. I don't think it would be so creepy if it seemed like these men were interested in a woman because of who she is, not just because she is a religious female that wants babies. The impersonality of it really bugs me.

The way it is currently done reminds me of bargaining for livestock or something.

[BravaAmica]

You're not.

Fundie courtship stories always sound like historical romance to me, for just the reasons you mentioned. Mostly because the woman and her personality, her needs and wants, is almost irrelevant to the entire thing. Historical romances are (in my readings) always about what the *hero* needs, whether that be an heir, a pretty face or whatever. And that is how I see fundie courtship - the men (father, prospective suitor) are looking out only for what the men need - to get the daughter married off, have children, be an "obedient" wife.

Just once I'd like to see one of those courtship stories start off with something about having gotten to know her (in a fundie approved manner) by hearing her speak or learning some of her likes BEFORE talking to the dad. I don't think it would be so creepy if it seemed like these men were interested in a woman because of who she is, not just because she is a religious female that wants babies. The impersonality of it really bugs me.

The way it is currently done reminds me of bargaining for livestock or something.

See, I get that many readers enjoy reading about that scenario and find it romantic in the context of a novel, AKA fiction. But to want your marriage to start like that- no, sir. To have your husband choose you like he would pick out a cow or something? Gross. It's fiction, people.

It's like a generation that was raised on Johanna Lindsey and Barbara Cartland decided to implement that bullshit for real. I've read plenty of historical romance. I think it can be a fun genre, and there are authors that I enjoy reading [Jo Beverly, Mary Balogh]. But I would not want a romantic partner to act like the hero in a romance novel. If you put a hero from a romance novel in the context of real life, what you get is an asshole, not a suitable romantic partner.

[Minerva]

They basically treated her the way parents treat a small child, making decisions about her life without her input and keeping it a secret from her for as long as their plans didn't require her knowing about it.

[NurseNell]

I think it's creepy. No way in hell would I go for this but then my parents were your ordinary liberal Catholics.

I have a friend from India. Her marriage was arranged. She says she got a good husband, for which she is thankful, but she's not in love with him. Once she got pregnant she said no more sex. They only wanted one child. She doesn't share why but she said "I just don't want sex". I asked her why she couldn't use birth control. She said she could if she wanted but she just plain doesn't want sex. I asked her what if her husband looks elsewhere for sex. She said that was fine as long as he was discreet. According to her they will never divorce. I don't get it. They are both highly educated professionals from wealthy families.

[NurseNell]

The blog doesn't give any indication if he and Abby did get married. And did he find work? He was a veteran who served in Iraq but was out of the military and not working at the time he asked to court Abby.

[genericJname]

I've read this story before. Definitely creepy. The thing I have never understood is how is seeing a girl from afar and feeling like its the right thing to pursue a courtship any less lustful than dating??

[luckystone]

This is not a "return to the good old days", because only upper class Victorians courted similarly

Not only was it uncommon but I think it's more strict than those days? Based on my novel readings anyway :lol: there seemed to be lots of flirting at Jane Austen dances, the girls went places without males and didn't they sometimes go on walks with guys? And visit their houses? Even they seemed to get to know each other better than the fundies do.

[CrazyCatLady]

a quick google of their names take you to this page http://ylcf.org/courtship-stories/three/ which states that they got married on October 2, 2010.

She's quite pretty, no wonder he wanted to marry her without knowing anything else about her.

[CrazyCatLady]

oh and here's a video of them dancing....ummm, ok.

[delilahdog11]

His story was painful to read. The lack of emotional depth and maturity is astounding. How are boys and girls suppose to know how to relate and communicate with each other when they aren't allowed to show any interest in each other unless the boy intends to marry the girl? I cant imagine the emotional stress of getting married and then immediately start having kids when you haven't even learned how to have a causal converstation with the opposite sex. I know there are people who make it work, but it seems that lack of maturity, mixed with wifely submission, male dominance, add in a few young kids and it seems like a recipe for all sorts of chaos.

[kittypie]

I hope they are not married, but if they are, that they got to know each other, and the woman did not have to say OBEY.

My nephew, whom I love dearly, got married last year and I 'bout fell off my pew when the bride included "obey" in her vows. :shock:

They are Christians but not fundie an they have a new baby girl.adxx this damn kitten better stp effin with me? Qdwhile I'm typing...

Anyhoo, the way I see it the one who's been obedient so far is my nephew.:lol:

And whoever upthread said Mark Driscoll is a PIG, I totally agree.

(Stupid frisky kitten - how do I make him STOP going after my hands?!?!)

[masagoroll]

His story was painful to read. The lack of emotional depth and maturity is astounding. How are boys and girls suppose to know how to relate and communicate with each other when they aren't allowed to show any interest in each other unless the boy intends to marry the girl? I cant imagine the emotional stress of getting married and then immediately start having kids when you haven't even learned how to have a causal converstation with the opposite sex. I know there are people who make it work, but it seems that lack of maturity, mixed with wifely submission, male dominance, add in a few young kids and it seems like a recipe for all sorts of chaos.

I know, when I read the story I thought "This sounds very high school!" Or even more like junior high, haha. When I was a young teenage girl, I remember getting crushes on people from afar and being like "Ooh, they're so great!" But I eventually learned to get to know people as friends and actually talk to them and hang out with them before forming a dating relationship (let alone marriage, eek)!

[ExCatholic]

Is anyone else having a hard time reconciling their courtship story to the youtube video? Dancing! And sleeveless dresses! And v-necks and leggings and I saw thighs. I'm terribly confused. Where do they fall on the fundie scale?

[phereby]

Not only was it uncommon but I think it's more strict than those days? Based on my novel readings anyway :lol: there seemed to be lots of flirting at Jane Austen dances, the girls went places without males and didn't they sometimes go on walks with guys? And visit their houses? Even they seemed to get to know each other better than the fundies do.

Jane Austen wasn't a Victorian author. She wrote in (and of) an earlier period, which seemed to me to be less restrictive than upper-class Victorian life.