pointless to try and have discussion with anti-choicers

[aubrietta]

On facebook today, I was invited by an acquaintance that doesn't know me very well to an "event" which was actually just a link to an online petition to support Motion 312, which is a motion before Parliament in Canada to federally grant personhood to fetuses.

I posted a comment that I wouldn't be supporting the motion. I was aware that I was potentially walking into a hornet's nest, but I explained that I am a birth doula, and it is because of my work with women who have wanted pregnancies that caused me to see that women need to have full legal autonomy over their bodies, including their fetuses or else it becomes legal for terrible things to happen - like women being imprisoned and charged with attempted murder because they fell down the stairs while pregnant, or women being restrained and forced to have c-sections against their will.

Well...

along with the expected and usual replies:

ADOPTION IS THE LOVING OPTION

You have been brainwashed by extreme feminists!

in response to my comments that giving a fetus personhood actually removed personhood from the woman was this gem that made me realize any discorse was completely futile,

It does not remove personhood from the woman at all. Do you accept the law that you must wear a seat belt to protect you in your car or do get a ticket for not wearing a seat belt?Seat belt laws protect you and as a parent you must insist that your children wear a seat belt. A law against abortion wants to protect the unborn who are riding in the "car" - the womb.

Because yeah, equating a woman to a car that the fetus rides in isn't de-humanizing, and doesn't negate her personhood AT ALL.

[Witsec7]

Cool you have been brainwashed by the feminists. Sounds like you're in line for a toaster!! :clap:

[ElphabaGalinda]

If that's what being brainwashed by extreme feminists is, then that's a great thing adn you should be proud.

There are a few petitions opposing that motion going around...they make me feel a lot better about the state of this country

[aubrietta]

I was practically elated when another Conservative Party member, Gordon O'Connel got up and totally gave Woodsworth the smackdown in the parliamentary discussion about the Motion. There is no way, no matter how much of an asshat Stephen Harper is, that he wants to risk railroading re-election by lighting the fire of the abortion debate. Motion 312 truly seems to be an independent motion by Woodsworth that is only supported by a very small handful of the Conservative Party.

[BayLee_10]

My experience has been that people relate Pro-Choice to Pro-Abortion. I am not

'for' abortions, I just don't believe that what another woman decides to do about her pregnancy is any of my business. A woman should have personal control over her own body and her own life.

[SayNoToMullets]

I've often found that any discussion with anti-choicers disintegrates very quickly into them quoting bumper stickers. Now I see why, with the whole vehicle analogy. A car with bumper stickers on it only ever says a few (usually cliched) phrases, written by someone else. Sounds a lot like fundies, really.

[reds]

We should come up with a bumper sticker for Pro-Choice not being Pro-Abortion.

[Austin]

A woman /= car.

:roll:

So much logic fail there.

[Nothing2CHere]

Oh dear, the US craziness has managed to find its way across the border?

I've mentioned before on FJ, that this pregnancy has made me more pro-choice than ever. No woman should ever be forced to go through nine months of this if she does not want to. If I had any idea what pregnancy for me would have been like, as much as I'm going to love and adore my son, I would have had very serious reservations about going through with this. And my pregnancy, when compared to others that I've heard about, really isn't that bad.

[constantgardener]

I don't know the background to this very sad story but I imagine we would be hearing much more of this kind of thing if the pro-lifers got their way. Poor girl.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... rward.html

[DarkAnts]

My problem with the anti choice movement is that they dont agree with family planning. This would prevent MANY abortions and help women by giving them other options.

I know that they dont want to give women options and make them out to be the bad person. It takes 2 people to produce a child. Its hypocritical to go after the women but not the men.

[Anise]

I was thinking about it recently, and my conclusion is that women have the superpower of growing life. This power is threatening to some power-hungry men who are completely without hope of growing life, so they seek to undermine and control that power. Back in the Middle Ages, male scientists thought that the sperm really contained a tiny person that would grow inside women, thus turning women into nothing more than incubators, and diminishing the perception of their power. Nowadays, the message is that the growing foetus is not apart of the woman- it is an independent being that is temporarily residing within her, thus both again turning women into little more than incubators and diminishing the miraculous power that growing a human really is. Furthermore, they turn this power into a weakness by limiting maternity leave and claiming that it is the reason why they pay women employees less.

These patriarchal men have uterus envy.

[reds]

Well Fuck! They can have mine if they want it!

[valsa]

A woman /= car.

:roll:

So much logic fail there.

I don't know. I kinda like that analogy because it lets me make this one-

If I consent to give a guy a ride and he's got a mouse in his pocket, if his mouse gets loose in my car and starts nesting using the stuff I keep in there, why shouldn't I be allowed to hire a professional to exterminate it? I consented to give the guy a ride, not have his mouse live in my car. And even though the mouse is using the stuff I keep in my car to make a home, I'm under no obligation to let it stay there.

Of course, someone will probably just come along and try to say that if I didn't want a mouse in my car, I should have kept the damn doors closed.

[Deleted03]

A woman /= car.

:roll:

So much logic fail there.

and if she'S a car, then this is opening a whole different discussion: maybe pregnant women she be prohibited by law to smoke, or drink alcohol, or eat fast food, or go down stairs (as it seems to bring about many miscarriages and early labor), etc, etc.

[margiebargie]

I don't know. I kinda like that analogy because it lets me make this one-

If I consent to give a guy a ride and he's got a mouse in his pocket, if his mouse gets loose in my car and starts nesting using the stuff I keep in there, why shouldn't I be allowed to hire a professional to exterminate it? I consented to give the guy a ride, not have his mouse live in my car. And even though the mouse is using the stuff I keep in my car to make a home, I'm under no obligation to let it stay there.

Of course, someone will probably just come along and try to say that if I didn't want a mouse in my car, I should have kept the damn doors closed.

It's a woman's duty to drive around in a shabby, unappealing car so that men with mice in their pockets will not be tempted to ask for rides.

C'mon you know that already.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I don't know. I kinda like that analogy because it lets me make this one-

If I consent to give a guy a ride and he's got a mouse in his pocket, if his mouse gets loose in my car and starts nesting using the stuff I keep in there, why shouldn't I be allowed to hire a professional to exterminate it? I consented to give the guy a ride, not have his mouse live in my car. And even though the mouse is using the stuff I keep in my car to make a home, I'm under no obligation to let it stay there.

Of course, someone will probably just come along and try to say that if I didn't want a mouse in my car, I should have kept the damn doors closed.

That was awesome.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I don't know. I kinda like that analogy because it lets me make this one-

If I consent to give a guy a ride and he's got a mouse in his pocket, if his mouse gets loose in my car and starts nesting using the stuff I keep in there, why shouldn't I be allowed to hire a professional to exterminate it? I consented to give the guy a ride, not have his mouse live in my car. And even though the mouse is using the stuff I keep in my car to make a home, I'm under no obligation to let it stay there.

Of course, someone will probably just come along and try to say that if I didn't want a mouse in my car, I should have kept the damn doors closed.

I love you for all this :clap: Someone will also probably say if you didn't want a mouse in your car, you should stop washing it or something to make it unappealing. Because of course it's always the car's fault.

[Maude]

Bumping this thread because I saw an article in my paper today about a local teenager who runs a website called Letter4Life. Her goal is to rally youth from all across Canada to write letters to Prime Minister Stephen Harper in support of motion 312.

Her website: letters4life.ca

A petition opposing motion 312: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/opp ... n-312.html

Needless to say I'm now :angry-screaming: :angry-banghead:

[CanadianHippie]

*sings*

I'm a little piece of tin

no one knows what shape I'm in

I've got four doors and a running board

I'm a four door, I'm a Ford!

*ahem*

Now that I have that out of my system...

I am hoping that if this gets anywhere, my faith in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms doesn't fail me. It's already been determined that a fetus' possibly life does not overrule the mother's right to security of person.

[bionicmlle]

<------ Proudly brainwashed.

(Doesn't this thread seem like a call for Elle/Aria to come out and play???)

[wildrose]

Thank you for the link to the petition opposing motion 312, Maude. I immediately signed it. How long till we can vote Harper and his minions out of office?

[Maude]

Three more years, I'm afraid. :(

[alba]

I read an opinion piece in the Kitchener Record on this saying that feminists and pro-choicers can see the need for a discussion on the matter because there is currently no limit on when abortions can occur in Canada. In fact, every province has a limit between 16 and 22 weeks, which is less than the 24 weeks in the UK and many US states. Some provinces allow late-term abortions for medical reasons; others provide referrals to the US for these abortions.

I'm also not a car. I'm an easy-bake uterus.

[debrand]

Well, I might be slightly brainwashed. Until I came to this site, I was uncomfortable with either terms, prochoice or prolife. Abortion makes me uncomfortable but I live in the real world, not some perfect fantasy. Women who don't want to carry a fetus to term might not take care of themselves. This would be even more true if they feel coerced into being a living incubator. Not all unloving parents give their children to loving adoptive families(and not all adoptive families are loving) Sometimes life is complex and the right answer is difficult to know, that might be why the Christian savior said not to judge others.

I think that the best argument against his bill is to force prolifers to define the term, person hood. What does that mean exactly? If it means being alive, plants are alive and yet we use hoes to remove weeds. If it means being human and alive, sperm is human and alive. I've heard some people try to define it as potential human life but sperm is potential human life too.