Screw the Vatican

[Sunnichick31]

http://m.smh.com.au/world/vatican-defen ... -8s3s.html

Not breaking the link cause it's a news site and I doubt they would care. I just don't even know what to say. I really don't.

[Elle]

Carrying twins at that age would likely have killed that girl. As someone who is pro-life, I don't think this was wrong (what the mom and doctors did - the Vatican sucks). The mother and doctor acted in they way they needed to to SAVE HER LIFE. Since the toll on her body at that age with TWO babies would probably have killed her early, the babies had no chance either. It's like the fools who condemn women with ectopic pregnancies who abort even though there is currently no way to transfer an embryo from a tube to the uterus.

[bananacat]

I have to say, at least Catholicism is consistent in its hatred of abortion. If this happened in a free country, I would say it's a blessing in disguise for these people to no longer be part of that church. But since it's Brazil, the excommunicated people will be ostracized for it.

[Childless]

Carrying twins at that age would likely have killed that girl. As someone who is pro-life, I don't think this was wrong (what the mom and doctors did - the Vatican sucks). The mother and doctor acted in they way they needed to to SAVE HER LIFE. Since the toll on her body at that age with TWO babies would probably have killed her early, the babies had no chance either. It's like the fools who condemn women with ectopic pregnancies who abort even though there is currently no way to transfer an embryo from a tube to the uterus.

Yeah, the Vatican can go screw itself. I had an ectopic pregnancy that had to be terminated. It was a very much wanted pregnancy and if there was any way to save it, I would have jumped at the chance.

[Coconut Flan]

The man who raped her wasn't excommunicated but the people who acted to save her life and her sanity were? He began the whole mess. If one can forgive the rape of a nine year old by someone who is supposed to care for and protect her, then surely one can forgive what has to be done to deal with the result. They could deplore it, but still act with consideration and forgiveness.

[Childless]

Yeah, because a man should never be called out for committing a sin. He's the head of the family and all powerful. Can't have him thinking he has to follow the rules or anything. That may emasculate him. :roll:

[doggie]

if she went through with it and all three died The priest would not have batted an eye and would have just blamed god as usual. Its easy to make such decision's when you know god agrees with you. But since the bible says nothing about abortions they as usual are pushing it.

this is when religion fails when they put the ideals above the people they are supposed to be serving.

[Anxious Girl]

I may bias, so please forgive me, but I always thought that nuns (in Roman Catholocism, anyway) were more open about supporting people different from Roman Catholics and their belief systems than the male clergy (bishops, popes, priests, etc). In my expierence, at least. One nun told my Catachesim (sp) class that the Garden of Eden was a myth but it was about punishment for disobeying the extreme laws of God (murder, stealing, etc) for your own selfish wants/trying to explain how ancient man went to gatherer/hunger society to cities and towns and such (my memory is a little fuzzy on the latter part which may just be my opinion on the story). Correct me if I'm wrong please.

[Elle]

You know, I can't think of any bible verses for or against abortion. I'm against it because unborn babies DO feel pain, though how early isn't known, and no one really cares that a baby may experience a pain of the severity that was once reserved for only the most extreme of instances and would now be considered torture. If an anesthetizing or euthanizing shot were given prior to beginning to rip the baby apart literally limb from limb, then fine, at least the baby isn't suffering. Where I have the problem is with people disregarding the pain their babies may experience. I know many pro-lifers, some Christian, some atheist, who are against abortion for the exact same reason and who would all be pro-choice is anesthesia of euthanasia were used to spare the baby suffering. The death penalty is constantly revamped to make sure a mass murder who raped kids before slowly killing them feels so pain at all and stays have been put on executions when there's been question on whether or not the anesthesia that is enough to block pain in surgical patients is enough to block the pain of death, yet there is no care about the pain of a baby who never had the chance to do wrong. There are three ways to look at this issue. The rights of a baby to life or at least not suffer, the rights of a woman to autonomy, and blindly (basically anytime someone cites the bible as a reason for something, they're blindly following instead of critically thinking).

But not one pro-life Christian I know can point to any bible verses against abortion, only verses that you can interpret in many different ways.

Also it's appalling that rape can be forgiven in the church, but not ensuring a 9-year-old little girl doesn't die. What the fuck can you expect from a church that takes some verses too literally? If a man rapes an unmarried woman, he can pay a fine to her family and she is his wife, according to one book of the bible. A rape victims has no rights and a rapist can be forgiven.

[doggie]

Also it's appalling that rape can be forgiven in the church, but not ensuring a 9-year-old little girl doesn't die. What the fuck can you expect from a church that takes some verses too literally? If a man rapes an unmarried woman, he can pay a fine to her family and she is his wife, according to one book of the bible. A rape victims has no rights and a rapist can be forgiven.

well that's the problem with a all men religion. So is this a hole supposed to marry his daughter? oops can't do that because he is her dad otherwise???

[samurai_sarah]

I may bias, so please forgive me, but I always thought that nuns (in Roman Catholocism, anyway) were more open about supporting people different from Roman Catholics and their belief systems than the male clergy (bishops, popes, priests, etc). In my expierence, at least. One nun told my Catachesim (sp) class that the Garden of Eden was a myth but it was about punishment for disobeying the extreme laws of God (murder, stealing, etc) for your own selfish wants/trying to explain how ancient man went to gatherer/hunger society to cities and towns and such (my memory is a little fuzzy on the latter part which may just be my opinion on the story). Correct me if I'm wrong please.

I get where you're coming from, and I've made similar experiences. Depending on where you are, grasroots Catholicism i.e.: congregations, priests and nuns, can be very benevolent, tolerant and inclusive. My Catholic upbringing was very liberal, and I used to defend the RCC long after I stopped believing. But the problem I see, is that those benevolent people (and I to some extent) perpetuate, and justify the Vatican's fuckwittery. The pope and his brigade get away with the most horrifying misogny, because "we" don't vote with our feet, and all too often don't speak out.

[Anxious Girl]

@samurai_sarah: What does grass roots mean? I hear it most of the time when people critize cults and/religion. And btw: fuckwittery, I love that word. I may sound childish, but it makes me laugh whenever I read it. :oops:

[samurai_sarah]

@samurai_sarah: What does grass roots mean? I hear it most of the time when people critize cults and/religion. And btw: fuckwittery, I love that word. I may sound childish, but it makes me laugh whenever I read it. :oops:

That's interesting. In which context do you hear "grass-roots" when talking about cults?

For me, "grass-roots" means individual Catholics, congregations ad parishes. I grew up in a predominantly Catholic area, which was very, very liberal, so my idea of Catholicism used to be quite liberal and benevolent (i.e.: no one batted an eyelid at contraceptives or cohabitation before marriage, all religions are equal, etc). The Vatican was far, far away, so no one in my parish was too bothered by what came from there, because it rarely had anything to do with "real" life. Catholicism was just part of life, but not the most important part. Hence, in everyday life, at the very bottom of the Catholic food-chain, it felt rather benevolent. Hope this made it a little clearer, sorry. And I love that word too. ;)

[Elle]

well that's the problem with a all men religion. So is this a hole supposed to marry his daughter? oops can't do that because he is her dad otherwise???

I wonder what happens when the rapist is a woman. Since she's a woman, does that mean she should get stoned and he's a victim, even though if the sexes were reversed, the victim would be shunned and the perp forgiven?

[FireIsCatching89]

That poor, poor girl. My heart is just breaking, but I'm glad her mother did right by her. She's just barely not a baby herself, and how could that bishop (it was a bishop, correct?) just condemn her, saying that the two fetuses had a right to live. Doesn't that little girl have a right to grow up as well????? The fact that the Vatican cares so little for already-born women is absolutely vile. Just vile.

This is why I'm scared of restricting abortion. First, they say if it harms the mother or whatever; but there are always exceptions. Theoretically, a nine year old, somewhere, at some point, probably could carry a pair of twins without much bodily damage. However, the super right-wingers take this as license to mean all pregnancies can end like that, when it reality, that was one in a hundred thousand, or whatever. What then, what about all the women who don't make it? Their death orders have been signed.

On that note, here's some bullshit: http://www.personhoodinitiative.com/fac ... nancy.html. Apparently, ectopic pregnancy doesn't kill! Woo-fucking-hoo! Any of our medically-inclined Jingrites wanna rip into this (NurseNell, Ypetsis, emmiedahl, etc.)? Not breaking link b/c it's not a blog.

[Elle]

The world's youngest mother was just five years old. Just because Lina Medina lived doesn't mean that it's safe. I think people who use the exceptions as the rules are as foolish ask people who swear that smoking a carton of cigs a day is perfectly safe just because someone someone's cousin's grandchild once dated didn't die until he was 80 and that was of a heart attack instead of lung cancer, while ignoring that smoking causes heart problems too. (My mom is one of those people who thinks cigarettes and tons of alcohol are safe, even though she's got some serious liver damage, she swears it's hereditary and has nothing to do with drinking 2 or 3 fifths of vodka a day, which really should have killed her, but I think she's being preserved at this point.)

[Coconut Flan]

Having had an ectopic pregnancy, I'm thankful that those idiots didn't get to decide my medical care. By the time I got into surgery, I was doubled over in pain and unable to stand or walk. Telling me to continue enduring until full rupture would have ended with me beheading whoever suggested continuing the torture. I didn't regard it as an abortion, but removing something from my body that was obviously not viable where it was and indeed I felt it was life-threatening. It wasn't an easy decision but by the time we got to the hospital, I felt it was the only one to make. I would not have wanted to trust in or be forced to undergo autotransfusion from my abdomen. I'd had enough.

[Loveday]

Having had an ectopic pregnancy, I'm thankful that those idiots didn't get to decide my medical care. By the time I got into surgery, I was doubled over in pain and unable to stand or walk. Telling me to continue enduring until full rupture would have ended with me beheading whoever suggested continuing the torture. I didn't regard it as an abortion, but removing something from my body that was obviously not viable where it was and indeed I felt it was life-threatening. It wasn't an easy decision but by the time we got to the hospital, I felt it was the only one to make. I would not have wanted to trust in or be forced to undergo autotransfusion from my abdomen. I'd had enough.

It isn't, and I don't know where the hell these people get the idea that it is. An ectopic pregnancy is a medical emergency, pure and simple. I'm sorry you had to go through that, the pain sounds unimaginable.

[Coconut Flan]

Thanks. It was bad. I think it was worse than gallbladder attacks.

I'm completely baffled by these keep any pregnancy at any cost to the mothers types. The tube ruptures and the pregnancy is lost so why not deal with it humanely and cleanly? Why wait until it's a dicey medical emergency?

They probably don't think missed miscarriages or molar pregnancies should be dealt with medically either.

[Georgiana]

You know, I can't think of any bible verses for or against abortion. I'm against it because unborn babies DO feel pain, though how early isn't known, and no one really cares that a baby may experience a pain of the severity that was once reserved for only the most extreme of instances and would now be considered torture. If an anesthetizing or euthanizing shot were given prior to beginning to rip the baby apart literally limb from limb, then fine, at least the baby isn't suffering. Where I have the problem is with people disregarding the pain their babies may experience. I know many pro-lifers, some Christian, some atheist, who are against abortion for the exact same reason and who would all be pro-choice is anesthesia of euthanasia were used to spare the baby suffering. The death penalty is constantly revamped to make sure a mass murder who raped kids before slowly killing them feels so pain at all and stays have been put on executions when there's been question on whether or not the anesthesia that is enough to block pain in surgical patients is enough to block the pain of death, yet there is no care about the pain of a baby who never had the chance to do wrong. There are three ways to look at this issue. The rights of a baby to life or at least not suffer, the rights of a woman to autonomy, and blindly (basically anytime someone cites the bible as a reason for something, they're blindly following instead of critically thinking).

But not one pro-life Christian I know can point to any bible verses against abortion, only verses that you can interpret in many different ways.

Also it's appalling that rape can be forgiven in the church, but not ensuring a 9-year-old little girl doesn't die. What the fuck can you expect from a church that takes some verses too literally? If a man rapes an unmarried woman, he can pay a fine to her family and she is his wife, according to one book of the bible. A rape victims has no rights and a rapist can be forgiven.

I want you to know that I am honestly curious here, so please don't think I'm attacking you :) Elle, are you also vegetarian? I mean, the slaughtering of cows is far worse than what happens in most abortions. Most poultry have their beaks and talons removed and live a very painful life until they are finally killed. All that I am trying to say is what happens in the food industry is far more gruesome than what happens in most abortions.

And I wont deny that fetuses feel pain. When I had my abortion, during the final moments the fetus was pressed in such a way that I could feel its struggles. It was a terrible thing to feel. BUT pregnancy is also painful and full of suffering, ESPECIALLY if you have complications. It feels a little bit like you might be saying that the suffering of the fetus is more important than the suffering of the mother.

Also, just know that at no moment did I disregard the potential suffering of my fetus. Ever. I don't think that most women do. When you're pregnant, you have the pregnancy hormones, and your whole body is about the welfare of that baby in some regards. But I also had to consider my own suffering, both the physical suffering of the pregnancy and the suffering of life after. Pregnancy takes a HUGE toll on a woman's body. And women have a right to choose their own well being over that of a group of cells that could potentially become a child one day. It was it or me, and I chose me. Because I felt that I had a right not to suffer.

You are welcome to PM me if you want my full story in details. I do honestly respect your view, even if it is a little, erm, hurtful to me.

[Georgiana]

I am Catholic.

My most faith-filled moment was AFTER I had my abortion. (if you're an atheist, you might want to skip over my faith story here)

I thought that I would feel distant from God. Cut off. I was taught that's what sins did: distance you from God's love. And yes, I believed myself to be sinning. I felt God could never love me after what I had done. I expected to feel alone. But I was so wrong.

After my abortion, I felt the Love of God always about me. I wasn't ready to go to Him, but I felt that He was always there for me. Waiting. Not to damn me, but to love me, forgive me, embrace me. When I finally was ready to turn to Him, He lead me to Pslam 143: A Prayer in Distress and the parable of the Prodigal Son. It was then that I understood: the LORD does not abandon us in our distress! He is there for us! He loves us in our sins and in our righteousness. He is the Lord of Forgivness, the Lord of Compassion, and he does not turn away from us when we do wrong, but waits for us to see the error of our ways and return.

The Vatican is wrong, because here, the Vatican is not of the LORD. God does not excommunicate sinners. He forgives them, pardons them, and loves them. In doing this, the Vatican is clinging to a single phrase in scripture and ignoring the rest of the Bible! Just as in the Middle Ages, they are using religious power to further their political agenda. Terrible. Truly terrible.

[BravaAmica]

http://m.smh.com.au/world/vatican-defends-excommunication-for-raped-nineyearold-girls-abortion-20090308-8s3s.html

Not breaking the link cause it's a news site and I doubt they would care. I just don't even know what to say. I really don't.

Why do people even bother being Catholic anymore? I'm serious. It's all about protecting the old boys' network & their wealth and power. They contribute nothing of worth to the world.

I say she's better off being excommunicated. Now she no longer has to be a prt of an organization that thinks it's her fault she got raped and is going to hell for it.

[Georgiana]

Why do people even bother being Catholic anymore? I'm serious. It's all about protecting the old boys' network & their wealth and power. They contribute nothing of worth to the world.

I say she's better off being excommunicated. Now she no longer has to be a prt of an organization that thinks it's her fault she got raped and is going to hell for it.

People are Catholic for the same reason people are any religion, it's what they believe, it's how they were raised, it's something that brings goodness to their life, etc. The Catholic Church also provides a great deal of aide, social services, and in many areas provides eduction or medical treatment to those who might otherwise not be able to afford it.

Saying that the Catholic Church provides nothing of value to the world is absurd. Maybe you mean the Vatican (which is NOT the entire Catholic Church, btw) is outdated and has outlived its usefulness. Now there is a thesis statement, a.k.a. something you could argue. And for that, there are plenty of arguments on both sides. And I HOPE that you mean the Vatican provides nothing of worth, because with your unclear antecedent, you might mean that Catholics in general contribute nothing to the world (which is ludicrous).

[Maul the Koala]

A lot of people are 'culturally Catholic' if that makes sense. I know a lot of people who go to Mass every Sunday, celebrate all the major Holy Days but believe a lot of the teaching are old fashioned and outdated. Like the ban on birth control, per-marital sex and so on. As a lot of people I knew grew older, they saw the ban on abortion kind of ridiculous as well. I find this more-so in the populations that grew up Catholic than recent converts though.

I've heard from a couple people that have studied theology that the removal of an ectopic pregnancy is a-ok by the Catholic Church as long as every attempt is made to save the fallopian tube. I'm not sure how true that is though.

[BravaAmica]

People are Catholic for the same reason people are any religion, it's what they believe, it's how they were raised, it's something that brings goodness to their life, etc. The Catholic Church also provides a great deal of aide, social services, and in many areas provides eduction or medical treatment to those who might otherwise not be able to afford it.

Saying that the Catholic Church provides nothing of value to the world is absurd. Maybe you mean the Vatican (which is NOT the entire Catholic Church, btw) is outdated and has outlived its usefulness. Now there is a thesis statement, a.k.a. something you could argue. And for that, there are plenty of arguments on both sides. And I HOPE that you mean the Vatican provides nothing of worth, because with your unclear antecedent, you might mean that Catholics in general contribute nothing to the world (which is ludicrous).

Yes, thank you for clairfying: the VATICAN contributes nothing of worth.