Screw the Vatican

[Coconut Flan]

Odd hair splitting on the Catholic position on ectopic pregnancies. You'd think on the one hand that they'd go for the means that were more likely to retain the mother's fertility.

I checked two reliable sites and both ruled out using methotrexate and micro-surgery to try to save the tube. Those were seen as purely killing the embryo or unborn child as they see it.

Removing the entire tube or the "damaged" section were both, however, allowable as a necessary act to save the mother's life and the demise of the embryo an unfortunate side effect.

[Maul the Koala]

Odd hair splitting on the Catholic position on ectopic pregnancies. You'd think on the one hand that they'd go for the means that were more likely to retain the mother's fertility.

I checked two reliable sites and both ruled out using methotrexate and micro-surgery to try to save the tube. Those were seen as purely killing the embryo or unborn child as they see it.

Removing the entire tube or the "damaged" section were both, however, allowable as a necessary act to save the mother's life and the demise of the embryo an unfortunate side effect.

D'oh I got it wrong. You're right. I remembered it the other way around.

[Coconut Flan]

That's OK. The other way actually seems to make more sense. I was curious.

[doggie]

Odd hair splitting on the Catholic position on ectopic pregnancies. You'd think on the one hand that they'd go for the means that were more likely to retain the mother's fertility.

I checked two reliable sites and both ruled out using methotrexate and micro-surgery to try to save the tube. Those were seen as purely killing the embryo or unborn child as they see it.

Removing the entire tube or the "damaged" section were both, however, allowable as a necessary act to save the mother's life and the demise of the embryo an unfortunate side effect.

this is the result of priests and not doctors coming up with this. Like using lawyers to make medical decisions.

[2xx1xy1JD]

This was the case that I was thinking of a few weeks ago, when I posted that if I was the mother in that situation, I would simply tell my little girl that she needed surgery for a "growth" in her tummy.

This case is disgusting in so many different ways. I hate that someone's trying to score political points on the backs of the lives of women and children.

[ems]

If one can forgive the rape of a nine year old by someone who is supposed to care for and protect her, then surely one can forgive what has to be done to deal with the result. They could deplore it, but still act with consideration and forgiveness.

This.

[ems]

I may bias, so please forgive me, but I always thought that nuns (in Roman Catholocism, anyway) were more open about supporting people different from Roman Catholics and their belief systems than the male clergy (bishops, popes, priests, etc). In my expierence, at least. One nun told my Catachesim (sp) class that the Garden of Eden was a myth but it was about punishment for disobeying the extreme laws of God (murder, stealing, etc) for your own selfish wants/trying to explain how ancient man went to gatherer/hunger society to cities and towns and such (my memory is a little fuzzy on the latter part which may just be my opinion on the story). Correct me if I'm wrong please.

I think that in general, you may be on to something here. An awesome liberal RC from my high school recently posted an article on fb about the social justice oriented work than nuns currently perform in hospitals, charities, etc. and how this is being cracked down upon b/c these nuns supposedly aren't "speaking out against abortion" enough or something. It often seems to my cradle Catholic self that sadly the nuns are the ones that often keep the church both running and serving the larger secular world while the bishops are the ones that have the power and voice in the church...

Aaand...here's the article : http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she ... ml?hpid=z3

[ems]

this is the result of priests and not doctors coming up with this. Like using lawyers to make medical decisions.

I think they condemn anything they see as directly ending the life of the embryo, even if its ultimately inviable.

[Coconut Flan]

I understand that's what they say, but it fails humanity and logic tests with me which is why I call it hair splitting. Embryo is being lost no matter which way it comes about. Talk about pushing an agenda to an ultimate extreme point.

[samurai_sarah]

I understand that's what they say, but it fails humanity and logic tests with me which is why I call it hair splitting. Embryo is being lost no matter which way it comes about. Talk about pushing an agenda to an ultimate extreme point.

Welcome to the weird and wonderful world of strict RCC logic. ;) Prepare for mental gymnastics.

[Tator Tot Tubby]

I get where you're coming from, and I've made similar experiences. Depending on where you are, grasroots Catholicism i.e.: congregations, priests and nuns, can be very benevolent, tolerant and inclusive. My Catholic upbringing was very liberal, and I used to defend the RCC long after I stopped believing. But the problem I see, is that those benevolent people (and I to some extent) perpetuate, and justify the Vatican's fuckwittery. The pope and his brigade get away with the most horrifying misogny, because "we" don't vote with our feet, and all too often don't speak out.

In my experience, the tolerant ones get punished though. I grew up Catholic and our priest was fired (or whatever the word is) for saying that God doesn't care if someone's gay and that the only thing that matters is if you're a good person. He got kicked out and we got this new super conservative old guy in his place.

[samurai_sarah]

In my experience, the tolerant ones get punished though. I grew up Catholic and our priest was fired (or whatever the word is) for saying that God doesn't care if someone's gay and that the only thing that matters is if you're a good person. He got kicked out and we got this new super conservative old guy in his place.

I gather they do that, I just never experienced it that way, back in the day. In Germany, where I'm from, Catholics and Protestants pay "church tax", which provides a level of protection for the more liberal Catholic clerics, I guess. It's a good and steady income (and relatively easy to get out of as a tax payer). So, I suppose that the RCC treads a bit more carefully in Germany, and lets priests and parishes have their way, because of money.

[Georgiana]

I gather they do that, I just never experienced it that way, back in the day. In Germany, where I'm from, Catholics and Protestants pay "church tax", which provides a level of protection for the more liberal Catholic clerics, I guess. It's a good and steady income (and relatively easy to get out of as a tax payer). So, I suppose that the RCC treads a bit more carefully in Germany, and lets priests and parishes have their way, because of money.

Meh, it kinda depends on each area. I'm from an overwhelmingly notorious, super liberal area. We tend to get conservative Bishops because of that. Whenever we get a new one, they fight us for a few years, realize it's a losing battle, and then loosen up. It's seen here as a balancing act: the priests/congregation tend to be liberal, while the Bishop is conservative to prevent us from going too far. On the other side, parts of my family live in a very conservative diocese. They get liberal Bishops to force them to do reforms/implement new programs even when they would rather not.

I think the thing is that with the Catholic Church, it is FAR easier to bring and press a complaint about someone being too liberal than it is for being too conservative. I have, however, seen it done.

IRL, money talks. I have seen many a program/priest's fate decided by the financial power of parishioners. Which, considering most parishes do not have one single moneybags donor, functions as a great equalizer and presents a check on Church authority.

[fundyfunland]

I want you to know that I am honestly curious here, so please don't think I'm attacking you :) Elle, are you also vegetarian? I mean, the slaughtering of cows is far worse than what happens in most abortions. Most poultry have their beaks and talons removed and live a very painful life until they are finally killed. All that I am trying to say is what happens in the food industry is far more gruesome than what happens in most abortions.

And I wont deny that fetuses feel pain. When I had my abortion, during the final moments the fetus was pressed in such a way that I could feel its struggles. It was a terrible thing to feel. BUT pregnancy is also painful and full of suffering, ESPECIALLY if you have complications. It feels a little bit like you might be saying that the suffering of the fetus is more important than the suffering of the mother.

Also, just know that at no moment did I disregard the potential suffering of my fetus. Ever. I don't think that most women do. When you're pregnant, you have the pregnancy hormones, and your whole body is about the welfare of that baby in some regards. But I also had to consider my own suffering, both the physical suffering of the pregnancy and the suffering of life after. Pregnancy takes a HUGE toll on a woman's body. And women have a right to choose their own well being over that of a group of cells that could potentially become a child one day. It was it or me, and I chose me. Because I felt that I had a right not to suffer.

You are welcome to PM me if you want my full story in details. I do honestly respect your view, even if it is a little, erm, hurtful to me.

+1

I don't mean to start an abortion discussion on FJ AGAIN, but when someone states his/her strong POV like this I feel I need to chime in.

I've never really understood this whole argument against abortion based on the "fact" that fetuses feel pain. If feeling pain were the sole reason for one being anti-choice, I would hope then, that the anti-choicer would also not vaccinate their child (needles hurt..I know, I've seen babies WAIL after having a needle), or not agree to life-saving surgery for a 1 day old infant, based on the fact that post-op-wise, the baby would certainly feel pain in the surgical area. Pain is a part of life AND death. It makes a flimsy excuse for keeping a 12-yr old child pregnant, as in the case highlighted. Furthermore, no one knows how severe the pain (if any) the fetus actually feels during an abortion. Does it feel like the fetus is getting a needle or does it feel like the fetus is being stabbed multiple times? Just my thoughts.

[fundyfunland]

Just to add re: bible verses, I'm not one to be able to memorize & spew out verses, but since Elle pointed out, I believe one of the verses Christians use against abortion is one where Mary (pregnant with Jesus) & some other pregnant woman were together (with some other biblically-relevant fetus) and Jesus said (once he was born) something along the lines of "I knew you before you were born". Maybe someone more familiar with this could find the quote? I'll look in the meantime.

[Minerva]

+1

I don't mean to start an abortion discussion on FJ AGAIN, but when someone states his/her strong POV like this I feel I need to chime in.

I've never really understood this whole argument against abortion based on the "fact" that fetuses feel pain. If feeling pain were the sole reason for one being anti-choice, I would hope then, that the anti-choicer would also not vaccinate their child (needles hurt..I know, I've seen babies WAIL after having a needle), or not agree to life-saving surgery for a 1 day old infant, based on the fact that post-op-wise, the baby would certainly feel pain in the surgical area. Pain is a part of life AND death. It makes a flimsy excuse for keeping a 12-yr old child pregnant, as in the case highlighted. Furthermore, no one knows how severe the pain (if any) the fetus actually feels during an abortion. Does it feel like the fetus is getting a needle or does it feel like the fetus is being stabbed multiple times? Just my thoughts.

I've been biting my tongue for awhile now, but while we don't know exactly when fetuses start being able to feel pain, there is significant scientific evidence for when they are unable to feel pain: the first and second trimester. Like, there's a grey area in the last 1-2 weeks of the second trimester, but before that we know with quite a lot of certainty that fetuses don't have the parts necessary to be conscious or experience pain. Regardless of whether we individually feel that fetal pain is relevant to the debate, we owe it to people who are faced with an unwanted pregnancy to not spread misinformation.

[notacleverpony]

Relevant song is relevant. And hilarious. And very, very, very NSFW. (Don't watch if you dislike swearing and mild cartoon nudity. DO watch if you like catchy songs and Tim Minchin.)

(Edited for riffling YT links)

[fundyfunland]

Relevant song is relevant. And hilarious. And very, very, very NSFW. (Don't watch if you dislike swearing and mild cartoon nudity. DO watch if you like catchy songs and Tim Minchin.)

(Edited for riffling YT links)

:dance: LOVE Tim Minchin! Thanks for the linky!

[acadienne]

Just to add re: bible verses, I'm not one to be able to memorize & spew out verses, but since Elle pointed out, I believe one of the verses Christians use against abortion is one where Mary (pregnant with Jesus) & some other pregnant woman were together (with some other biblically-relevant fetus) and Jesus said (once he was born) something along the lines of "I knew you before you were born". Maybe someone more familiar with this could find the quote? I'll look in the meantime.

Ok, future religious sister here. They usually use Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

They also like to use these:

"God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27).

"You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15). \

"You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11).

"God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

With most of the verses, one has to infer what they mean. But yes these are the ones they use in biblical arguments against abortions.