Jump to content
IGNORED

Sister Wives in NYTimes (Kody to challenge law?)


mirele

Recommended Posts

From today's New York Times:

Kody Brown is a proud polygamist, and a relatively famous one. Now Mr. Brown, his four wives and 16 children and stepchildren are going to court to keep from being punished for it.

The family is the focus of a reality TV show, “Sister Wives,†that first appeared in 2010. Law enforcement officials in the Browns’ home state, Utah, announced soon after the show began that the family was under investigation for violating the state law prohibiting polygamy.

On Wednesday, the Browns are expected to file a lawsuit to challenge the polygamy law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/us/12 ... ss&emc=rss

Let me be blunt about this. It's a publicity stunt. In order for this to actually go somewhere, Kody Brown has to actually be arrested, charged and convicted. The courts are not going to rule on something that is not a live issue. While this is done in other countries, in American jurisprudence this is considered a waste of a court's time.

Since he now lives in Nevada, he can't be prosecuted under Utah law (unless he were to return); Nevada would have to be interested in prosecuting him; Nevada may not be interested as long as they're not breaking any other laws, particularly since money's tight and this is a prosecution that could conceivably cost a quite a bit of money over a period of years.

This is, from a legal perspective, an absolute and complete non-starter and is a publicity stunt. And I wrote the newspaper reporter and told him just that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 101
  • Created
  • Last Reply

TOTALLY agreed on the publicity factor. But the reporter did a good job of exploring the legal context. I'm fascinated by the application of Lawrence v Texas here.

I, for one, have never exactly been able to figure out why consensual bigamy is against the law. The adults in this family have said they have no intentions of forcing their kids into polygamy, and a number of the teenage girls in particular are on camera talking about how it works fine for their family but they don't want it for themselves. Sure, the adults think this is "best", at least for them, but they're pretty aware that other people choose different lifestyles. And while they care about modesty and stuff, they aren't nearly as legalistic as the Duggars are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/us/12 ... ss&emc=rss

Let me be blunt about this. It's a publicity stunt. In order for this to actually go somewhere, Kody Brown has to actually be arrested, charged and convicted. The courts are not going to rule on something that is not a live issue. While this is done in other countries, in American jurisprudence this is considered a waste of a court's time.

Since he now lives in Nevada, he can't be prosecuted under Utah law (unless he were to return); Nevada would have to be interested in prosecuting him; Nevada may not be interested as long as they're not breaking any other laws, particularly since money's tight and this is a prosecution that could conceivably cost a quite a bit of money over a period of years.

This is, from a legal perspective, an absolute and complete non-starter and is a publicity stunt. And I wrote the newspaper reporter and told him just that.

I've never understood how anyone can be persecuted under polygamy laws. Most of these groups only have a legal marriage between the original couple. How do you outlaw people from living together or having sex outside of the first marriage contract?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The lawsuit is not demanding that states recognize polygamous marriage. Instead, the lawsuit builds on a 2003 United States Supreme Court decision, Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down state sodomy laws as unconstitutional intrusions on the “intimate conduct†of consenting adults. It will ask the federal courts to tell states that they cannot punish polygamists for their own “intimate conduct†so long as they are not breaking other laws, like those regarding child abuse, incest or seeking multiple marriage licenses.

I agree with this. Unless states are going to punish adultery, consensual polygamy should not be outlawed. They aren't legally married, anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TOTALLY agreed on the publicity factor. But the reporter did a good job of exploring the legal context. I'm fascinated by the application of Lawrence v Texas here.

I, for one, have never exactly been able to figure out why consensual bigamy is against the law. The adults in this family have said they have no intentions of forcing their kids into polygamy, and a number of the teenage girls in particular are on camera talking about how it works fine for their family but they don't want it for themselves. Sure, the adults think this is "best", at least for them, but they're pretty aware that other people choose different lifestyles. And while they care about modesty and stuff, they aren't nearly as legalistic as the Duggars are.

you took the words out of my mouth. Plus, nowadays who cares if it is all consensual and everyone involved seems to be doing OK? It's just IMO though. I mean, a lot of blended families are doing well, with two (maybe three) different sets of parents/grandparents whatever, and sometimes it DOES take a village to raise a child ;) I can see both sides of that poly coin, the pros and cons. For some people the pros outweigh the cons.

I don't really want to waste my money on a trial like that if everyone seems OK and consents. There are bigger fish to fry IMO than some guy with a few wives and tons of kids who are taking care of themselves and contributing to society (as far as I know).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never understood how anyone can be persecuted under polygamy laws. Most of these groups only have a legal marriage between the original couple. How do you outlaw people from living together or having sex outside of the first marriage contract?

Some states have common law marriages or laws against how many unrelated people can live together for just this reason. It seems the US fears polygamy... it's sad really.

Utah code on marriage: http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE30/htm/30_01_000405.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does seem like a publicity stunt. That said I simply cannot understand why any authority would have an issue with those such as the Browns. Kody and his wives are all consenting, intelligent adults who know exactly what they were getting in to. Their situation is nothing like the Warren Jeff's FLDS cult. Kody supports his family - OK having a TV show helps out no end with money, but even before the show was made, he still supported his family so it's not like they are sponging off the state. The kids seem happy and well adjusted and none of them are in danger of being married off at puberty unlike some of Warren Jeffs' followers.

I can sort of understand why Kody would want a legal ruling on it. OK it probably is a publicity stunt but I know if it were me I wouldn't want to live in some sort of legal limbo wondering if I was going to be arrested if the mood in government changed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How I wish Kody Brown's disgusting brand of misogyny was a crime. That would make more sense than having bigamy be against the law. He completely squicks me out.

I hope he does try to file this lawsuit because it would be enjoyable to see him laughed out of court.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How I wish Kody Brown's disgusting brand of misogyny was a crime. That would make more sense than having bigamy be against the law. He completely squicks me out.

I hope he does try to file this lawsuit because it would be enjoyable to see him laughed out of court.

Okay... I don't watch the show, so forgive my question. What is his form of Misogyny? From what I have read he is an idiot, yes, but I don't particularly see him being hateful towards women, or anyone really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How I wish Kody Brown's disgusting brand of misogyny was a crime. That would make more sense than having bigamy be against the law. He completely squicks me out.

I hope he does try to file this lawsuit because it would be enjoyable to see him laughed out of court.

I've only seen about half an episode of Sister Wives, but Kody Brown really doesn't seem all that bad to me, not really misogynistic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course this is a publicity stunt. Kody is an idiot.

But what REALLY pisses me off is that while they are making a big stink about being discriminated against, they are pulling the same shady stunts that the FLDS are famous for. Christine and her kids received food stamps in the past. There have been multiple bankruptcies declared. So they want their marriages de-criminalized, yet are perfectly content to file for government assistance as single parents.

I don't understand why anyone would want to be in a polygamous relationship, but as long as they are consenting adults over 18, I figure it's none of my business. HOWEVER, if you choose that lifestyle, you had better make sure that you can support your large family without relying on the taxpayers. As much as I dislike the Duggars, at least they can support their kids without government assistance.

And now that they have moved to Nevada, it will be MY tax dollars that help support them. No thanks, Kody. Go back to Utah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kody supports his family - OK having a TV show helps out no end with money, but even before the show was made, he still supported his family so it's not like they are sponging off the state. The kids seem happy and well adjusted and none of them are in danger of being married off at puberty unlike some of Warren Jeffs' followers.

Kody does NOT support his family. He and all of his wives have filed for bankruptcy in the past.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does seem like a publicity stunt. That said I simply cannot understand why any authority would have an issue with those such as the Browns. Kody and his wives are all consenting, intelligent adults who know exactly what they were getting in to. Their situation is nothing like the Warren Jeff's FLDS cult. Kody supports his family - OK having a TV show helps out no end with money, but even before the show was made, he still supported his family so it's not like they are sponging off the state. The kids seem happy and well adjusted and none of them are in danger of being married off at puberty unlike some of Warren Jeffs' followers.

I can sort of understand why Kody would want a legal ruling on it. OK it probably is a publicity stunt but I know if it were me I wouldn't want to live in some sort of legal limbo wondering if I was going to be arrested if the mood in government changed.

Agreed. If he truly wanted a ruling he'd stay in Utah, but he, rightly in my mind, is not willing to go to jail, at least not with minor children still at home.

Okay... I don't watch the show, so forgive my question. What is his form of Misogyny? From what I have read he is an idiot, yes, but I don't particularly see him being hateful towards women, or anyone really.

While he is open with discussing things with his wives, if there is a disagreement, such as one of the wives, can't recall her name, said she didn't want to leave Utah he told her it was happening and that discussion ended, at least on camera, with him saying the MAN's job is to protect the family and he was protecting the family. The wive in question did say later that once she understood that he didn't WANT to leave, but felt it was necessary to protect the family, she felt better.

Also, my impression is that while the wives are "able" to leave at any time the kids would be expected to stay with Kody. Maybe this isn't even an issue b/c they are committed religiously, but I just get a bad feeling about what would happen if one did decide to leave.

Alas, not sure that any of that can be made illegal in any reasonable way.

Also, there's this:

In the Brown household, the math is:

3 women = 1 man

I would say that's an accurate statement. It would def take all the wives, or at least 3 of 4, to overrule him. Only the threat of an insurrection would cause him to change his mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've only seen about half an episode of Sister Wives, but Kody Brown really doesn't seem all that bad to me, not really misogynistic.

He is a misogynist. A goofy, scattered brained one, but one nevertheless.

I watch the show because the wives fascinate me. They all come across as reasonably intelligent (well, the new one not so much) and likable. What do they see in that tool? He's not a strong, bread-winning alpha male. He seems far too self-absorbed to be that good in bed. Emotionally and intellectually he seems stuck at about 17 years old. I get that they like the camaraderie, but you can accomplish that with a Kate and Allie type lifestyle; the annoying man-child-boss-of-you sperm donor is not necessary.

With that said, my 16 year old daughter says she'd much rather be Kody's kid than Jim Boob's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course this is a publicity stunt. Kody is an idiot.

But what REALLY pisses me off is that while they are making a big stink about being discriminated against, they are pulling the same shady stunts that the FLDS are famous for. Christine and her kids received food stamps in the past. There have been multiple bankruptcies declared. So they want their marriages de-criminalized, yet are perfectly content to file for government assistance as single parents.

I don't understand why anyone would want to be in a polygamous relationship, but as long as they are consenting adults over 18, I figure it's none of my business. HOWEVER, if you choose that lifestyle, you had better make sure that you can support your large family without relying on the taxpayers. As much as I dislike the Duggars, at least they can support their kids without government assistance.

And now that they have moved to Nevada, it will be MY tax dollars that help support them. No thanks, Kody. Go back to Utah.

I'm going play devils advocate. Would you say the same thing to monogamous couples or single parents? Are they their children the only ones worthy of it?

I don't have a dog in this fight, other than family is family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone should purposely have children they can't care for without government assistance, regardless of their marital circumstances. If you can't afford to feed a whole herd of kids, and you're not willing to use birth control, then it would seem self-evident that polygamy isn't a great idea for your current situation. The same applies to monogamy, of course. Just because you want something doesn't mean you have the right to expect the state to foot the bill for it.

I'm confused about what, exactly, he did that's illegal. AFAIK, he's not legally married to any of them, so in the eyes of the law, he has four girlfriends. Is that illegal in Utah? Is it the fact that he calls himself married? If the issue is sex outside of marriage, it seems obvious that this is selective prosecution.

That said, when I break laws that I think are dumb, I do it quietly - I don't go on national tv proudly proclaiming it. The adults involved (not just Kody - the wives are equally responsible IMHO) knew that this was illegal when they chose to go on tv, and they knew what the possible consequences might be. Maybe they thought the money and fame would be worth it, but from what I understand, their kids are now suffering as a result of the parents' poor judgment. That, in my book, makes them lousy parents and lousy human beings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Utah, cohabiting with someone while legally married to someone else is considered bigamy and illegal, though unless there is something else going on (child abuse, welfare fraud, ect) they usually don't prosecute.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Utah, cohabiting with someone while legally married to someone else is considered bigamy and illegal, though unless there is something else going on (child abuse, welfare fraud, ect) they usually don't prosecute.

Is he legally married to one of them? If so, why doesn't he just legally divorce her? I don't know about Utah, but in most states that can be done fairly quickly if neither spouse contests it and there's no dispute over assets or child custody. It seems like that would solve all their problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Utah, cohabiting with someone while legally married to someone else is considered bigamy and illegal, though unless there is something else going on (child abuse, welfare fraud, ect) they usually don't prosecute.

Yes, and they claim their paranoia over the possibility of being arrested is what drove them to Nevada. They'd see a cop car in the area and everyone would freak out. Supposedly.

Personally, I think it was mostly all a reality TV ploy coupled with the fact that the new pregnant wife wasn't going to fit in the Utah house so they were going to have to move anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, and they claim their paranoia over the possibility of being arrested is what drove them to Nevada. They'd see a cop car in the area and everyone would freak out. Supposedly.

Personally, I think it was mostly all a reality TV ploy coupled with the fact that the new pregnant wife wasn't going to fit in the Utah house so they were going to have to move anyway.

Ugh... I thought the moving drama was sooo boring... :-P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, my impression is that while the wives are "able" to leave at any time the kids would be expected to stay with Kody. Maybe this isn't even an issue b/c they are committed religiously, but I just get a bad feeling about what would happen if one did decide to leave.

According to what Kody has said on the show, the kids would stay with their mother no matter what. Kody also said he would do the best he could to provide a house for that sister wife and the kids to stay in near the rest of the family. Kind of like the situation Robyn was in in the show (she and her children lived in a separate house near the big house)

My take on the situation is that what they're doing should not be illegal. Is Kody a sexist dick? Yep. Just like plenty of guys with only one wife/girlfriend. Do I think that family has more kids than they can support, based on the previous bankruptcies and getting public assistance? Yes. Just like a lot of other guys I know who get multiple women pregnant and can't support them all/ women who file for assistance as single mothers even though their "baby daddy" is still in the picture.

In my nursing school, one of my classmates is an older guy who has a 22 year old son and 6 grandkids, from 3 different mothers, from that son. All three of those mothers are on public assistance and the 22 year old is living with yet another girl that he’s not using protection with. Why is what he’s doing perfectly legal but what the Browns are doing is not? There are always people who are going to be using the system in a way that they shouldn’t be but, frankly, I’d rather have a situation like the Brown family, where at least the father is in the picture full-time, than one like my classmate’s child, where he sees his kids once a week, if that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is he legally married to one of them? If so, why doesn't he just legally divorce her? I don't know about Utah, but in most states that can be done fairly quickly if neither spouse contests it and there's no dispute over assets or child custody. It seems like that would solve all their problems.

He's legally married to Meri. Who I'm still not convinced believes in this 100% for herself, more like this is what her religion taught her so she must do it. But I also don't see her leaving once Mariah goes off to college or marries on her own. She's too emotionally invested in all of the other kids.

Christine believes in this hook, line, and sinker, same with Robyn. Janelle....well, I think it works for her because she likes her time to herself.

Me - just the thought of him coming near me after sleeping with 3 other women would just squick me out. On top of him squicking me out already! lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my nursing school, one of my classmates is an older guy who has a 22 year old son and 6 grandkids, from 3 different mothers, from that son. All three of those mothers are on public assistance and the 22 year old is living with yet another girl that he’s not using protection with. Why is what he’s doing perfectly legal but what the Browns are doing is not? There are always people who are going to be using the system in a way that they shouldn’t be but, frankly, I’d rather have a situation like the Brown family, where at least the father is in the picture full-time, than one like my classmate’s child, where he sees his kids once a week, if that.

Any living arrangements consenting adults want to engage in is fine with me provided the children are safe and cared for. One legal marriage at a time, however.

I could be wrong, but wan't Kody able to put all of the kids on his employer's health insurance plan as dependants because they were living in the same household with him? If so, I could see this as being somewhat unfair if the plan - like many -doesn't charge an extra premium past a certain number of dependants.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going play devils advocate. Would you say the same thing to monogamous couples or single parents? Are they their children the only ones worthy of it?

I don't have a dog in this fight, other than family is family.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. Welfare, food stamps, etc are there to help people who have fallen on hard times. I don't have an issue with that, whether you are single, married, or polygamous. However, if you need assistance, STOP HAVING MORE KIDS. If you can't take care of the kids you already have, DON'T HAVE ANY MORE.

Part of the fault is with the system- we have all heard of welfare queens who keep on having more kids to increase their payments. That should be changed, because as it stands, there is actually an incentive to have more kids.

The Browns were already on thin financial ice when Kody decided to add a 4th wife with 3 kids of her own, and no job. Then they left their jobs to move to a state with really high unemployment rates, and decided to have yet another baby. I know TLC pays them, but 4 houses, and 17 kids costs a lot of money. Not to mention AC for 4 homes in the Las Vegas summer.

If they want to be polygamists, fine. If they are looking for public assistance to supplement their incomes that's not fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




  • Trending Content

  • Recent Status Updates

    • 47of74

      47of74

      Yeah, that's me.  Though to be fair I am trying to learn Italian and Spanish.

      · 0 replies
    • Kiki03910

      Kiki03910

      IT'S BASEBALL SEASON!!!!!
      ⚾❣️
      · 3 replies
    • mango_fandango

      mango_fandango

      It’s not supposed to be mosquito season right now but I still appear to have been bitten twice on the side of my foot. Bastards. I know I shouldn’t scratch but it’s so tempting… 😑
      · 0 replies
    • Therapy Outside the Box

      Therapy Outside the Box

      Hello,
       
      I'm brand new to this forum. It was suggested to me by former and outspoken Remnant Fellowship member (Natasha Pavlovich) that I join this forum and put out here what I do. She also warned me that no one on here trusts, or trusts easily, and that I'd likely be assumed to be a Remnant plant or spy until vetted and verified as not that. Fair enough. 
      In short, and in truth, I'm a psychotherapist with 25 yrs experience in Franklin TN (less than three miles from RF incidentally) with a special interest in working with people formerly associated with cults, cult-like or any and all high control intitutions. I'm especially interested in working with those desiring not only deconstruct, recover and learn to thrive post-indoctrination, but those desiring to recapture or cultivate an authentic sense of theology without walls, or spirituality with borders. 
      To date, I've worked with former Amish, Mennonite, LDS/FLDS, FOG, and a those representing a whole slew of evangelical, fire and brimstone fear/shame/guilt-inducing institutions.
      I am especially interested in working with former Remnant Fellowship and Scientology members. I view RF as basically Scientology without the budget. 
      I'll leave it there. Much more can be gleaned about me through my website: therapyoutsidethebox.com or IG: @ therapyoutsidethebox
       
      Peace,
       
      Chris Hancock, LCSW
      Franklin, TN

      · 3 replies
    • Kiki03910

      Kiki03910

      I have a friend with untreated autism and ADHD. I've tried so fucking hard to help. He refuses. It's a mess. I'm really really tired.
      · 0 replies
    • Kiki03910

      Kiki03910

      Making Jill Duggar's brownie recipe because why not stay up late.
      · 2 replies
    • 47of74

      47of74

      Party on aisle 15....

      Also no interest if fully paid in so many months.
      · 0 replies
    • WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

      WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

      Happy Supper Bowel Sunday!!  No, wait. That isn't right...
      Anyway, enjoy the game (or the half time show, or the ads)!
      And a very happy Sunday to everyone who doesn't care about the NFL! 
      · 0 replies
    • Kiki03910

      Kiki03910

      I'm a huge baseball fan. This year, MLB TV showed Liga Dominicana games in December and January and it was a fucking revelation. The players had so much fire and joy. The announcers with their charming DR accents were a blast, though I could hardly keep up with the Spanish. DItto the Serie del Caribe. As a White Sox fan, the MLB season is going to suffer by comparison. Te amo los Tigres del Licey!
      · 2 replies
    • bea

      bea

      I've just realized how long I've been on FJ.  Holy cow.
      · 0 replies
  • Recent Blog Entries

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.