Abortion And Spanking

[debrand]

Some of the same people who are vehemently against spanking children are just as passionately in favor of aborting children. They protest the corporal punishment of children once they leave the womb, but they promote the murder of children in the womb.

One person, writing anonymously, stated: "Spanking is simply another form of terrorism. It teaches the victims that might makes right, and that problems can be solved through the use of violence by the strong against the weak."

While I disagree that "spanking is simply another form of terrorism," let's replace the word "spanking" with "abortion" in the above statement. Those who are proponents of abortion assert, by their support and/or actions "that might makes right, and that problems can be solved through the use of violence by the strong against the weak." And who is weaker among the Human Race than unborn children?

Dr. Benjamin Spock was quoted as saying, "If we are ever to turn toward a kindlier society and a safer world, a revulsion against the physical punishment of children would be a good place to start." Yet multiple sources indicate that part of his platform as the People's Party candidate, during the 1972 Presidential Election Campaign was the legalization of abortion.

Toronto Star Columnist, Ken Gallinger, in an article titled "The Bible Is Simply Wrong About Spanking," wrote: "Spanking is an act of violence, so ethically, it could be justified only if there was absolutely no other way to improve the way kids act."

However, in an article titled "Should Lives Doomed to Hardship Be Aborted," which dealt with the birth of conjoined twins, Gallinger wrote: "I'm not, incidentally, arguing that it would necessarily have been ethically wrong had the mother made the decision to abort the pregnancy. If she had taken that step, knowing her own limitations and being realistic about the life ahead for these kids, it would be right to respect her decision. Sad, but right."

Gallinger did write in the same article that he thought the mother made the "nobler choice" by electing to raise the children. Small comfort, however, when he sees nothing unethical about aborting the same children, had the mother decided to do so. This is yet another example of the dichotomy for some between their views regarding the discipline of children and the murder of the same.

Interestingly (and unfortunately), Gallinger is a "minister." He serves at Lawrence Park Community Church, in Toronto, Canada. The church logo indicates the church prides itself in being "united, unorthodox, and unlimited. The home page on the church's website also indicates that the church is unchristian.

Lawrence Park Community Church is committed to being a radically inclusive and welcoming congregation. We preach and live a Good News that is contemporary and challenging. Whatever age you may be, whatever stage of exploring faith you may be at, you will find support, encouragement and spiritual stimulation in our congregation.

Theologically, our approach to the Christian faith is progressive and contemporary. We worship a God who is more 'within and among' than 'beyond'. We proclaim Jesus as "The Way" to life -- but we do not accept the notion of Jesus as "the only way". We understand ourselves to be a part of Canada's faith mosaic -- even as we affirm the beauty and dignity of other parts of that mosaic as well.

Sadly, Gallinger is one in a growing number of apostate pastors polluting pulpits around the world.

The same tragic dichotomy regarding Dr. Spock's and Pastor Gallinger's views regarding the discipline and murder of children is also seen in the American Academy of Pediatrics. According to the AAP's Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health, in a policy paper titled "Guidance for Effective Discipline," parents should not spank their children.

Because of the negative consequences of spanking and because it has been demonstrated to be no more effective than other approaches for managing undesired behavior in children, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that parents be encouraged and assisted in developing methods other than spanking in response to undesired behavior.

However, while the AAP would seek to develop alternatives to corporal punishment, they would seek to develop no such barriers to adolescents murdering their unborn children. In a policy paper titled "Counseling the Adolescent About Pregnancy Options, the AAP's Committee on Adolescence wrote:

Premarital sex, pregnancy, and abortion engender strong personal and individual feelings. Pediatricians and other health professionals should not allow their personal beliefs and values to interfere with optimal patient health care. The physician needs to respect the adolescent's personal decision and her legal right to continue or to terminate her pregnancy and not impose barriers to health services from another provider. Should a pediatrician choose not to counsel the adolescent patient about sexual matters such as pregnancy and abortion, the patient should be referred to other experienced professionals.

Such is the dichotomous mindset of many people in the world, today--philosophers and psychologists, columnists and clergy, medical organizations who are mandated to "do no harm," and people on the street. On the one hand, they profess to want to keep children from physical harm while, at the same time, they have no problem with the harming of children in the most depraved way--murder in the womb.

The godless (whether they wear a reporter's fedora, a clergyman's collar, or a clinician's coat) see no dichotomy in their thinking. The reason is simple enough. According to their secular worldview, they have no universal and eternal barometer for morality. They can rationalize such polar opposites as protecting children from harm and murdering children in the womb because their barometer for morality does not extend beyond their personal preferences. All such attempts to harmonize the parental philosophy of not spanking children with the murdering of unborn children by their parents (and by their doctors, and by pro-abortion politicians, and by professing Christians who vote for them) is nothing more than another attempt by sinful mankind to suppress the truth by their unrighteousness (Romans 1:18).

There is no dichotomy in a biblical, Christian worldview regarding the subject of disciplining children and murdering them. God's Word makes it clear. Children should be disciplined and, if necessary, with corporal punishment. And children should never be murdered.

http://www.onthebox.us/

[debrand]

Some Christians are prochoice. I notice that he lumps anyone with a different opinion about abortion in the same camp with the godless.

I have mixed feelings about spanking. We did not find it was effective with our children.

Very early in the pregnancy the fetus doesn't have the brain development to have emotions, feel pain or experience fear. A young child can feel pain and fear so there is no comparison between a fetus and child. It's an odd argument

[Austin]

Some Christians are prochoice. I notice that he lumps anyone with a different opinion about abortion in the same camp with the godless.

I have mixed feelings about spanking. We did not find it was effective with our children.

Very early in the pregnancy the fetus doesn't have the brain development to have emotions, feel pain or experience fear. A young child can feel pain and fear so there is no comparison between a fetus and child. It's an odd argument

I think it's an odd argument, too. Apples and oranges. Embryo/fetus =/= sentient human being, to me (or the other way around).

[Koala]

Idiots....sorry, but that's the only word that comes to mind.

And I totally agree that they are comparing apples to oranges.

[ladypuglover]

I'm Christian and pro-choice and anti spanking. I guess Jesus's blood didn't cover me as this guy has me going to hell.

I also want to know where it says to spank our children in the bible. All I can think of is the rod and the staff and I don't recall ever hearing a sheaperd beating their sheep so why would we beat our little "lambs"?

[emmiedahl]

That's always been my argument as well. You use a shepherd's staff to guide sheep away from danger and a rod to beat the wild animals away from them. Shepherding 101. If you beat sheep, they will either become violent with you or run away from you when you approach. They may be sheep, but they are not idiots.

My grandma had a sheep farm when I was growing up so I feel comfortable saying these things.

edited to remove spelling issue.

[Feberin]

I'm also anti-spanking and pro-choice. If you have a abortion you don't have to worry about the fetus later trying to abort you. But if you spank your child at some point they will probably try to smack you because you've trained them to hit when somebody does something wrong.

[debrand]

Well, the blog owner has spoken. You can't be a Christian and prochoice

I wrote:

Being prochoice only means that you are prochoice. It doesn't mean that you will hold the view that spanking is wrong or that Jesus isn't the only way to God. You're making connections that don't go together.

He wrote:

No. You're making connections that don't go together. If you read the article again, I made it clear that there are some (as documented in the article) who hold that spanking is wrong while, at the same time, holding the position that murdering the unborn in the womb is okay (a choice).

And, if you're suggesting that someone can be "pro-choice," while still believing Jesus is the only way to God; I would argue that anyone who professes to know Christ as Lord and Savior, yet holds to the sinful notion that being "pro-choice" is somehow consistent with a Christian worldview, is in all likelihood a false convert who does not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior

[emmiedahl]

Debrand, aren't you glad the world has so many people who are wise enough to know your heart better than you do? I'm glad someone out there has God's email address for topics on which the Bible is unclear. God Bless This Man. :liar:

[ladypuglover]

Well, the blog owner has spoken. You can't be a Christian and prochoice

I wrote:

He wrote:

Huh, I guess I'm a false convert then. Good to know that he knows my heart and how Jesus holds me in his standing. It must be nice to speak for God and not be worried everytime that lightening is going to strike his ass.

[debrand]

I asked him about the case of LC from Peru. A 13 year old girl was pregnant by a man in his thirties. In despair, the girl threw herself from a roof top. Now she is paralyzed. The doctors did not do all that they could to help her condition because they didn't want to hurt her baby. He sent me to this article that he wrote. Apparently, rape victims should not have abortions

He wrote this in answer to a poster named Francis

Rape and incest are grievous sins against God. So, too, is fornication (sex outside of marriage). And murder is also a sin against God.

Francis, by your own admission, that which is carried in a woman’s womb is a child, a person, created in the image of God. Even the secular, non-Christian science community has long-since come to terms with this reality. Therefore, in the cases of rape, incest, or for any other reason, the premeditated termination of an unborn child’s life is murder.

You ask about situations in which the life of the mother may be in jeopardy. In such cases, the doctor, whose Hippocratic Oath states, in part, "Above all, I must not play at God," should do everything in his or her power to save both the mother and the child; because they are both lives created in the image of God. This is also the responsibility of the parents, of the child--to do everything they can to save the life of the child.

Statistically, "abortion because of danger to the life of the mother" situations account for less than a fraction of 1% of all abortions. The birth of our first child was a difficult one for both my wife and my daughter. If the doctor had come to me and said, "Mr. Miano, both your child and your wife are at risk. I don't think we can save both of them." My initial response would be, "Doctor, do everything you can to save both of them."

If the doctor came back to me and said, "We've done everything we can. We've exhausted every medical option at our disposal. But only one can survive;" then I would make the very difficult decision with the help of my wife, my family, and the Lord. I would make the decision knowing in such a situation there is no "best option;" only painful and tragic ones.

Francis, you asked, "Wouldn't someone like Jesus understand that if a little girl was brutally raped, and got pregnant, she should have the right to decide whether or not to keep the child?"

Let's be clear. The murder of an unborn child is a forgivable sin. Those who repent and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be forgiven all their sins—past, present, and future. If you are reading this and you don’t know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and you have had an abortion, or you are a man who was an accessory to the murder of an unborn child by suggesting to or compelling a woman to have an abortion, please know that there is forgiveness for your sins, through Jesus Christ. Turn to Christ and live.

No, Francis. Jesus would not understand, in the manner you suggest. He would neither condone nor turn a blind eye to the sin of murder. As many others have said, "Hardship is not an excuse for homicide." While God is loving, merciful, and kind; He is also holy, righteous, and just. All sin is detestable in His eyes; and to suggest that God would overlook sin, any sin, including the murder of the unborn, is to cheapen His grace and, ultimately, create a false god in your mind to suit yourself, which is idolatry.

Francis, your last question is how would I change the laws regarding abortion, if I were an elected official. I would seek to have abortion outlawed and categorized as murder; with the very rare and multi-faceted exception of medical emergencies in which a family, once every possible medical option has been weighed and tried (with abortion never being the default position) must make the very difficult decision about who shall live and who shall die.

I believe this is a biblical position and consistent with a Christian worldview, whereas your "pro-murder" position is not.

[bananacat]

When children are actually wanted, parents are less likely to become overwhelmed and resentful, and so they are less likely to resort to spanking. It doesn't surprise me at all the pro-choice people are more likely to be anti-spanking. Fundies want people to have kids forced on them so that they become overwhelmed and spank all hint of personality out of those kids just to get a moment of peace.

[Koala]

I asked him about the case of LC from Peru. A 13 year old girl was pregnant by a man in his thirties. In despair, the girl threw herself from a roof top. Now she is paralyzed. The doctors did not do all that they could to help her condition because they didn't want to hurt her baby. He sent me to this article that he wrote. Apparently, rape victims should not have abortions

He wrote this in answer to a poster named Francis

I beg to differ. Where the hell has he been, and who told him that the "secular, non-Christian science community" has "come to terms" with this reality.

I am sorry, but it is a crime to make a 13 year old child have a rapist (or anyone's) baby for that matter. It's unthinkable. I can't even fathom a parent that would suggest such a thing.

[debrand]

Francis, your last question is how would I change the laws regarding abortion, if I were an elected official. I would seek to have abortion outlawed and categorized as murder; with the very rare and multi-faceted exception of medical emergencies in which a family, once every possible medical option has been weighed and tried (with abortion never being the default position) must make the very difficult decision about who shall live and who shall die.

He believes that all abortions shoudl be outlawed except for a few medical emergencies. Can you imagine the medical and legal nightmare his thinking would cause for some families? Abortions would only be allowed if the family had tried every other medical option.

http://www.onthebox.us/2011/01/from-mailbag_25.html

[Austin]

Hey, dude, when you grow a uterus, get back with me. Until then, STFU. :roll:

[Koala]

He believes that all abortions shoudl be outlawed except for a few medical emergencies. Can you imagine the medical and legal nightmare his thinking would cause for some families? Abortions would only be allowed if the family had tried every other medical option.

http://www.onthebox.us/2011/01/from-mailbag_25.html

Yeah, well I believe that women and their DOCTORS should be making these decisions, not half assed politicians and extremist religious whack jobs.

Sorry. Can you tell this one gets me all keyed up?

[emmiedahl]

Exactly. If he had his way, then in an emergency involving a pregnant woman, the doctor would do what? Go to a judge and get a special order? And meanwhile the mother and baby both die. He needs to get a grip on reality. When an abortion is needed for health reasons, it is usually quite obvious and needs to be done immediately.

Also, what if the baby is dead already? Should the mother wait a few weeks to make sure it wasn't an undetectable heartbeat? I had to have a dead 11 week old fetus removed from me. We tried to let nature run its course and I started hemorrhaging. I hate to think that if the baby had still had a faint heartbeat, some douchebag would press charges against the doctors who saved my life.

These idiots just don't think about the logistics of their ideas, kwim? Most women getting abortions are not skipping into the clinic. They have their own emotions about it and are doing a hard thing in a hard situation. LEAVE THEM ALONE ALREADY. Dude, we have more important things to think about. Like, um, all the children being beaten and terrorized by their parents.

eta: that miscarriage was years ago, I just realized that some might read this as being recent history.

[Blonde not dumb]

Exactly. If he had his way, then in an emergency involving a pregnant woman, the doctor would do what? Go to a judge and get a special order? And meanwhile the mother and baby both die. He needs to get a grip on reality. When an abortion is needed for health reasons, it is usually quite obvious and needs to be done immediately.

Also, what if the baby is dead already? Should the mother wait a few weeks to make sure it wasn't an undetectable heartbeat? I had to have a dead 11 week old fetus removed from me. We tried to let nature run its course and I started hemorrhaging. I hate to think that if the baby had still had a faint heartbeat, some douchebag would press charges against the doctors who saved my life.

These idiots just don't think about the logistics of their ideas, kwim? Most women getting abortions are not skipping into the clinic. They have their own emotions about it and are doing a hard thing in a hard situation. LEAVE THEM ALONE ALREADY. Dude, we have more important things to think about. Like, um, all the children being beaten and terrorized by their parents.

eta: that miscarriage was years ago, I just realized that some might read this as being recent history.

Regardless of when it happened, I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I totally agree with everything you said. 100%

What really gets to me about all of this is the extreme invasion of privacy. In these vulnerable moments of difficult decisions, no judge or politician should be weighing in. It's not their business. It's between a woman and her doctor. Don't like abortion? No one is making you get one.

[emmiedahl]

Unfortunately, miscarriages seem to be common here. I wish I had known about you guys a few years ago, because I was really torn up about it and didn't feel comfortable telling my friends. It's just nice to know that other people have had the same issues. It might be what makes us so reactive to dbags like this blogger; we have had to make hard decisions and don't really need some guy screaming in our faces about it.

[muffynbear]

I'm 100 % supportive of any woman who gets an abortion. It's a difficult decision. I just hope that if I were ever if that situation where I needed an abortion, that I would have the resources and support to do so. It's emotionally and physically draining on the woman. However, I'm all for birth control and the morning-after pill. I think abortion should be a last resort.

[Austin]

Unfortunately, miscarriages seem to be common here. I wish I had known about you guys a few years ago, because I was really torn up about it and didn't feel comfortable telling my friends. It's just nice to know that other people have had the same issues. It might be what makes us so reactive to dbags like this blogger; we have had to make hard decisions and don't really need some guy screaming in our faces about it.

I think miscarriage is more common that many of us who have had them think. I had one and I was able to talk to my momma about it when it happened, because she had three. But I didn't know then of any other women my age who had one. Years later, I realize many of my friends have had one or two.

I am so glad that I didn't have to deal with law enforcement investigating the circumstances of this difficult event, which is what some lawmakers have proposed. I can't even imagine the horror of that.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I love how you can't just be pro-choice. Oh no, you're "passionately in favor of aborting children." No, you dumbfuck, I'm passionately in favor of fighting for and upholding a woman's right to make choices regarding her own body. I'm passionately in favor of sex ed and safe sex. I'm passionately in favor of minding my own damn business and telling others to mind theirs.

[emmiedahl]

I am not passionately in favor of aborting children. Children should never be aborted and, because they are not in my uterus, can not physically be aborted.

I'm not passionately in favor of aborting fetuses either. If I found out today that I was pregnant with a handicapped rape baby, I would keep it. I just acknowledge that I am not qualified to make other people's decisions. I'm not Christian, either.

I hope he is reading this.

[debrand]

I don't know if anyone noticed but in his scenario about his wife having a medical emergency, the doctor comes to him for a decision. His wife's desire in the imaginary situation isn't even mentioned. He never says that he would save her life. He says that if there was no way to save both the child and the mother, the family would have to come to a decision. That bothered me because it shows that the woman's life isn't of much value. Maybe I am reading too much into his statement though.

[starfish]

To me, guys like this are all about subjugating/hating women and not so much about loving children.