Have You Had Debates With Fundies In Real Life?

[debrand]

My son attends a small community college. Today, he had a conversation with another boy his age. Chris-my son-says that he doesn't know how the conversation started but they ended up discussing abstinence. My son pointed out that statistically kids who are only taught abstinence end up having sex around the same age as other people but don't use condoms. His friend grew angry and said that he had been taught about condoms.(Which to me, isn't abstinence only education)

What surprised my son was how angry his friend grew. Chris decided to let the conversation drop but was shocked when the other boy said that,"You shouldn't have sex with the first floozy that looks at you."Chris felt the comment was disrespectful toward women

Chris was surprised at how angry the other boy became, but I also reminded him that his friend has probably never had anyone challenge his views. To the other boy, being a virgin is part of what makes a person good so he might have been shocked that anyone could argue that morality didn't depend on an individual's purity.

I think that Chris also had the advantage because his friend could only provide religious reasons for purity and my son told him that being a non Christian, he didn't accept those reasons.

So, have any of you had debates with fundies that weren't on line? Did the other person become angry?

[salsa]

I tried a few times, but decided that it's not possible to argue with stupid. No interest in exchanging ideas; just "believe as I do or you're a liberal pink-o commie feminazi Jesus hater who disrespects the Bible."

Angry? No one ever directly snapped at me, but you could tell they were controlling their anger. Fair enough; I was having to control my own anger.

[GeoBQn]

On our flight home from Israel last week, my husband and I were sitting next to a Chasidic couple with a baby. My husband is very friendly and was making funny faces at the baby, and he got into a discussion with the Chasidic husband. He told him that we met as grad students in Madison, and the protests came up. There was about a two month period where I was protesting daily and though we moved, I still feel strongly about it and have friends who are very involved in the recall effort. When the man started saying negative things about it, I instantly knew that this was not a conversation I wanted to be a part of, so I retreated to my iPod and headphones. I could still hear my husband, and picked up snippets of his side of the conversation. "But I don't mind paying for taxes when they go to good things like roads and libraries." "Well, it's up to the woman to decide if she wants an abortion." I kept hoping they would drop the conversation--and that the man wouldn't notice my Planned Parenthood keychain on my backpack. My husband is just too nice to cut off conversation, and I was really uncomfortable. It's one thing to get into debates with friends and family, but I refuse to go at it with someone I just met. I am under no obligation to explain or justify my personal beliefs to strangers.

[ladypuglover]

I've had many but one was about if I have never spoke in tongues then I couldn't be a real Christian. I don't remember it word for word but unless the Holy spirit moves over you and causes you to speak in tongues then you can't claim that you were born again. I tried to say that isn't how Christianity works but she wasn't have any part of it. she then said unless I came to her home church and spoke publicly in tongues then we would have to end the friendship. I ended the friendship then and still have never been moved to speak in tongues in private or in public. :?

[JesusFightClub]

Chris sounds cool! :)

I have only debated fundie lites, not the real deal. I sometimes like it for the crazy things they say. My favourite was the bloke who used to be heavily into porn. He was convicted of his sin and took all his porn - videotapes, books, magazines - into his front garden and burnt them. In broad daylight. I have often wondered what his neighbours made of this.

I have only encountered a handful though and none of them were Scottish. There are Scottish fundies but they are not much like your variety and don't hang around in evil sinful cities.

[salsa]

Oh, yeah, the tongues discussion! Ugh. When I worked in the hospital, had a nurse even lay hands on me so I'd receive the gift. Evidently, laying on hands means the hand-layer throws your head back. I didn't get tongues and she looked at me like I was a rebellious harlot.

The convo with the Chasid reminds me of the time we took our daughter to the playground that happens to be across the street from the Hare krsna house. A married couple was there to distribute tracts to try to persuade the Hare Krsnas and/or anyone else they tried to convert or corrupt. My then-husband had a long debate and conversation with them. I left it. I always say, "you can't argue with stupid."

[simplysweet]

On our flight home from Israel last week, my husband and I were sitting next to a Chasidic couple with a baby. My husband is very friendly and was making funny faces at the baby, and he got into a discussion with the Chasidic husband. He told him that we met as grad students in Madison, and the protests came up. There was about a two month period where I was protesting daily and though we moved, I still feel strongly about it and have friends who are very involved in the recall effort. When the man started saying negative things about it, I instantly knew that this was not a conversation I wanted to be a part of, so I retreated to my iPod and headphones. I could still hear my husband, and picked up snippets of his side of the conversation. "But I don't mind paying for taxes when they go to good things like roads and libraries." "Well, it's up to the woman to decide if she wants an abortion." I kept hoping they would drop the conversation--and that the man wouldn't notice my Planned Parenthood keychain on my backpack. My husband is just too nice to cut off conversation, and I was really uncomfortable. It's one thing to get into debates with friends and family, but I refuse to go at it with someone I just met. I am under no obligation to explain or justify my personal beliefs to strangers.

[Doomed Harlottt]

I don't come across too many fundies in real life, but I can think of three examples.

1) A guy who was evangelizing in the park asked me my beliefs. I told him I was an atheist. He asked me to commit to reading the New Testament. I told him I had read the New Testament. I also said, "We are actually the gospels in the original Greek in a class I'm taking right now." Granted, it was probably a little snotty to point this out. Anyway, he seemed completely floored. He had no plan B because it apparently never occurred to him that someone could read the Bible and not be totally convinced by it.

2) A college classmate (and I went to a pretty good college, I might add!) warned me that there were demons attached to some of my CDs, particularly "Hotel California" by the Eagles. I asked her what her evidence was, and she just kept insisting it was true and that I ought to get rid of my CDs.

3) Another college classmate joined the International Church of Christ, which is a full-on cult. We had many in-depth discussions about her beliefs. Our discussions were generally friendly. She told me that she didn't find my criticisms and rejection of her belief that offensive because I am an atheist; it would have bothered her more if I were claiming to be a Christian. But I also overheard her telling a friend how prideful and hardened I was. I got her to admit that she thought I was going to be tortured in hell for eternity and I asked her how she could love a god who would do that to me. She said that she just felt that her god must know what is best and that there must be some good reason for my eternal torment. Whenever she got stuck on a question I posed, she would say that she would have to check with her mentor in the church.

[FakePigtails]

Chris sounds cool! :)

I have only debated fundie lites, not the real deal. I sometimes like it for the crazy things they say. My favourite was the bloke who used to be heavily into porn. He was convicted of his sin and took all his porn - videotapes, books, magazines - into his front garden and burnt them. In broad daylight. I have often wondered what his neighbours made of this.

I have only encountered a handful though and none of them were Scottish. There are Scottish fundies but they are not much like your variety and don't hang around in evil sinful cities.

[CanadianHippie]

I had a debate about the bible as the inerrant word of God with a real life fundy guy. Hey stayed pretty calm, those with us at the time were worried there might be an all out brawl.

[Anxious Girl]

I didn't realize that the person I met in my last year of high school was a type of fundie untill I started to lurk at the boards here. This girl was home-schooled. We both took a class that was called Race, Class and Gender, which was an extra-curricular class whose intent was to teach students to be knowlegable of the privelages they did and didn't have, bisexual, gay, lesbian racial, and religious rights, how stereotypes can work against people, and to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and opinions among other topics.

Anyway, one day in the gender part of a class discussion, we were talking about pressure in American society for women to have children and what it means for the child-free. The girl, I'll call her K, said that she believed that every women should have children. I asked her about the women who didn't want children. She told us something along the lines of, "I don't understand how anybody could not want children. I feel that every woman should have children, and I want to have children." I asked her about people with various health issues, such as mine. I don't want children, but even if I did, I have 22.q, which is a partial chromosome deletion,along with people who see themselves as mentally/physically unfit to have children. K told me that it was okay for them to decide if they didn't want to have children, but that it was selfish for the people who saw themselves/are mentally and physically fit to decide to not have children. Somebody chimed in this in a friendly way, not realizing how many times child-free people hear this: "You'll change your mind when your older!" This got me so mad/riled up, because I had accquentinces (sp?), family and friends who weren't in my situation and didn't want children. Would any of you consider K to be fundie/fundie-lite? Sorry for the long rant.

[Doomed Harlottt]

Anxious Girl, She was probably fundie but I think you could believe that everyone should have children even without having any specific religious beliefs.

[Rachel333]

Oh yeah, I used to really get into it with my fundie and fundie-lite friends. The funny thing is, we still get along even though they know I disagree with them. A lot of them are nicer than you might think.

I don't think that supporting abstinence makes you a fundie, by the way.

My high school health class did an abstinence program. All I really remember were lots of really gross pictures of genitals with STIs. I remember hearing a conversation afterwards between two guys that went something like "Those pictures really scared me. I'm not sure I want to have sex." "Yeah, but you're not really going to get an STD. Just have sex anyway." "Yeah, you're right."

Really effective, there.

[Jenesis Jexodus]

I've known a couple of fundie lites but never felt the need to enter into a discussion that involved our differences in our beliefs. Just kept things superficial for the most part and never became too close to them. The only fundie thing that pissed me off in my actual life was when a classmate of my son was given a paper that said some crap about Halloween being evil, bla bla bla. A fundie kid passed it out at school and it pissed me off. The fundie lite family that I knew who didn't celebrate Halloween (because of it's supposed "meaning) NEVER tried to influence my decision about celebrating Halloween and I never tried to influence their decision not to. So the fundie lite family was not annoying to me because we respected each other's boundaries.

[Jenesis Jexodus]

I didn't realize that the person I met in my last year of high school was a type of fundie untill I started to lurk at the boards here. This girl was home-schooled. We both took a class that was called Race, Class and Gender, which was an extra-curricular class whose intent was to teach students to be knowlegable of the privelages they did and didn't have, bisexual, gay, lesbian racial, and religious rights, how stereotypes can work against people, and to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and opinions among other topics.

Anyway, one day in the gender part of a class discussion, we were talking about pressure in American society for women to have children and what it means for the child-free. The girl, I'll call her K, said that she believed that every women should have children. I asked her about the women who didn't want children. She told us something along the lines of, "I don't understand how anybody could not want children. I feel that every woman should have children, and I want to have children." I asked her about people with various health issues, such as mine. I don't want children, but even if I did, I have 22.q, which is a partial chromosome deletion, which is passed unknowingly by parents to their children, and usually gives children Digorge's syndrome, which I don't have, and lowers them academically in math skills but advances them in literature/writing skills during childhood, and comes along various speech problems and anxiety; along with people who see themselves as mentally/physically unfit to have children. K told me that it was okay for them to decide if they didn't want to have children, but that it was selfish for the people who saw themselves/are mentally and physically fit to decide to not have children. Somebody chimed in this in a friendly way, not realizing how many times child-free people hear this: "You'll change your mind when your older!" This got me so mad/riled up, because I had accquentinces (sp?), family and friends who weren't in my situation and didn't want children. Would any of you consider K to be fundie/fundie-lite? Sorry for the long rant.

[Doomed Harlottt]

I am cheating her because I get the following mostly from on-line interactions, but:

The thing I find most fascinating is how fundies respond when you ask them to step outside the Bible for just a minute by asking how they know the Bible is true. For a lot of them, this question just does not compute.

Fundie: Well, it's the word of God.

Me: But how do you know that?

Fundie: It says so in the Bible.

Me: Yeah, but . . .

Now, in fairness, some of them will say, "It's internally consistent!" Or a variation of that: "The prophecies of the Old Testament came true in the New Testament!" But a fair number seem totally unable to step outside the Bible to ask themselves what establishes the Bible is, in fact, the word of God aside from its own say-so.

A lot of them will also say, "It's a matter of faith and if you can't understand that, then you and I are just working from different frameworks and can't possibly have any more to say to each other." Which blows my mind. We can't have a discussion as to why we think our different "frameworks" are correct?

[Anxious Girl]

@ Doomed Harlot: I never thought of that before. I guess I expected her to be fundie because in the past people who're for abstinence usually were very vocal about their relilgion and how ignorant they were. I will try to be less judgemental.

@Rachel333: I know sorta what you mean. I have a couple of friends who aren't fundy but they are religious, and even though we disagree with each other's opinions, we respect each other. I just didn't like how in high school people didn't respect another person's opnion if they didn't agree with the flock.

[browngrl]

I've only debated with fundies a few times. Here is one example:

Some of my med school classmates were pretty religious. I did not know how fundamentalist they were until the day we discussed AIDS in our infectious disease class. After the class several of us were sitting around chatting and one guy said :"AIDS is God's punishment on the gays". I thought he must be joking so I laughed. Then I saw that no one else was laughing so I asked him if he was serious. The whole group (maybe 4 or 5 others) then went on some kind of fundamentalist rant about how evil gay people were. I wish I could say I debated with them politely or intelligently but really I just said that their ideas were a load of shit and told them to refer any gay patient to me rather than subject the gay patients to their evil (I actually said "fucking") ideas and then I stomped off. Years later, at a conference, I met up with the guy who made that statement and I reminded him of what he had said. He actually said he was very sorry about the whole thing and that since med school a lot of his old ideas had changed dramatically. So in the end he changed for the better.

[JuJuBee]

I am cheating her because I get the following mostly from on-line interactions, but:

The thing I find most fascinating is how fundies respond when you ask them to step outside the Bible for just a minute by asking how they know the Bible is true. For a lot of them, this question just does not compute.

Fundie: Well, it's the word of God.

Me: But how do you know that?

Fundie: It says so in the Bible.

Me: Yeah, but . . .

[crassy]

I don't think I've ever actually met a fundie in real life. Fundie-lites, yes. My brother-in-law (actually two of them), my sisters-in-law and my mother-in-law are all fundie-lite. I've had arguments with one of my BIL. He doesn't 'believe' in evolution and we've gone all out over it.

[emmiedahl]

I've tried to debate with the fundies, but they either start yelling or start crying. In the case of the Mormon relatives, they will cut off people who try to lead them astray so I don't even go there.

[BayLee_10]

It makes me too uncomfortable to debate either religion or politics. My brother is both conservative and religious, since I love him we just don't debate because it would get us nowhere and might irrepairably harm our relationship. Also I am an acquaintence of Kelly Bates and love her kids, especially Michaela and Alyssa. None of us have every discussed religion again since our first debate ended in hurt feelings. I'm glad people find comfort in faith and people can live as they choose, but I am concerned about the right wing politics which are seeping into our daily lives. As for me, I am a heathen. The Bible was written and heavily edited by men, not any devine being. I find the stories irrational.

check out web site 666christiancrimes.com

[BayLee_10]

divine being!

[valsa]

I debated with one of the people who was protesting my state's biggest gay pride rally. He seemed a little put off that even though he was an adult and I was only 14, I wasn't falling down at his feet to drink in the wisdom he was trying to bestow on us heathen homos. I forget the exact issues we argued about but it had to do with why he was there protesting. It eventually evolved to him admitting that he wasn't there for our benefit, but instead was protesting because he would get brownie points in heaven for doing it. After which I pointed out that if he was doing it for his own selfish gain, God probably wasn't going to reward him for it anyway. Then a cute dyke with blue hair pulled me away to mingle with drag queens. I have to admit, it was a much better use of my time with arguing with idiots.

[ladypuglover]

I had an ex-friend show her true fundy colors one day. We were talking about colonial history and I made the statement of how people evolved in stature just from the nutrition alone and the only thing she heard was the word evolve. She actually stuck her fingers in her ears while screaming evolution is satan and therefore you are satan and I can't hear you satan. She then began screaming la-la-la all while having her fingers in her ears. Mind you we were out in public in a nice sit cafe having lunch. Yeah, good times. :snooty: