Dressing in Victorian Drag

[The Archivist]

I love vintage and reproduction clothing, and have for a long time. In fact, that's where I had my first brush with fundieness without even realizing it - I stumbled on Jennie Chancey's website back in 1997 when looking up pictures of vintage styles ( sensibility.com/ .)

This morning, I stumbled on something new - I found this blog interesting, a bit charming, and the costumes she sews are beautiful.

romantichistory.blogspot.com

Please allow me to introduce Sarah Jane:

I am 25 years old. I am a wife to a Beloved Husband, mother to three precious little boys, an eager student of Cookery, Sewing, Making a Pleasant Home and Living a Godly Life. I am an attempted writer, sometimes poet, sometimes singer, lover of Beauty, lover of Song, lover of Christ. I am the oldest of five siblings, a Homeschool Alumni and plan on training up my own children at home, for Christ.

Okay, so in addition to making awesome vintage costumes, she's kinda fundie. Sure, okay.

However, scratch the surface and it starts getting weird:

And now I must conclude this blog post. I have a squirming child with the longest lashed blue eyes possible on my lap who needs a fat homemade cinnamon-bun and a glass of cold milk for breakfast. As I look outside the window we have next to our computer I see the wind blowing the tall, tall green grass in the "back pasture" with smoke-colored Mr. Nathan B. Forrest blithefully bounding through it, his tail gracefully pliant.

First: the writing style. Seriously? I mean seriously?

I actually reeeeeeally understand the temptation to write in the style of your favorite Victorian authors, since I too am a big old geek, but when you actually do it, it comes out sounding so horribly unnatural and pretentious that it can be difficult to read.

Second: the horse is named Nathan B. Forrest? Really?

What the hell else is going on here? Maybe it's just because she and her husband are involved in Civil War re-enactments, but...you had to choose the guy who started the Ku Klux Klan? Did you really?

On a broader note, the Victorian drag thing (well, it's more than Victorian, since it involves Regency and even Restoration period styles) is fascinating to me. Here's another, possibly more extreme, example - but this time involving a self-identified conservative Quaker:

quakerjane.com/

From her testimony on plain dressing:

At that time my religion was a sort of feminism. The patriarchy of the mainline churches bothered me. I placed my concerns about the equality of women in the world (particularly myself) first. I distrusted my husband, assuming he was only looking out for himself and his male needs. The only church I felt comfortable in was a Unitarian Universalist congregation. But I found I could not sit through the service.

It was around this time that I also became obsessed with finding a bonnet, a particular style of bonnet, of which I had a very clear picture in my head. After several months of Googling thousands of pages deep for the word "bonnet," I found what I was looking for on a website about "prayer coverings." This discovery was quite disturbing to my feminist mind. And yet, I would wake up in the middle of the night and go to the website and moon over the bonnet. I felt possessed. I finally bought the black bonnet and a white cap, put them in the closet and breathed a sigh of relief.

quakerjane.com/spirit.friends/plain_dress-my_path.html

For all their talk about modesty, and in Quaker Jane's case, "plainness," I can't help but get a whiff of theatricality about the whole performance, and I find it anything but modest.

Which is fine, since modesty is not a trait I require in others in order to respect them and their choices - but it does give me an icky feeling when someone who claims that modesty is important to them, well, then acts likes this.

I dunno. I don't want to bully anyone, and I really don't want these two women to come back here and see a bunch of awfulness directed at them, but it bothers me and I think it's worth discussing.

So - Victorian drag. What the hell?

[Wolfie]

We've talked about Sarah Jane on the other board before. I think she was raised very sheltered, but she went more extreme than her parents, and I don't think her husband is totally into the quiverful thing. But he is VERY MUCH into the confederate thing. On his blog he has their house all decorated with confederate flags for succession day. The dress doesn't bother me so much. Wear what you want to wear, just don't think you're better because you do. I live in an area where people wear whatever they want.

I actually do 1840's clothing sometimes. I volunteer at a historic site from that time period, but I also just love the clothes. I don't do it because I feel like I need to, I do it because I want to. Right now I'm debating if I can get a new wool dress done before the next event. (my dresses are all pretty loud, and period appropriate in colors. No muted tones for me!)

[Sola]

On a broader note, the Victorian drag thing (well, it's more than Victorian, since it involves Regency and even Restoration period styles) is fascinating to me. Here's another, possibly more extreme, example - but this time involving a self-identified conservative Quaker:

quakerjane.com/

From her testimony on plain dressing:

quakerjane.com/spirit.friends/plain_dress-my_path.html

For all their talk about modesty, and in Quaker Jane's case, "plainness," I can't help but get a whiff of theatricality about the whole performance, and I find it anything but modest.

Which is fine, since modesty is not a trait I require in others in order to respect them and their choices - but it does give me an icky feeling when someone who claims that modesty is important to them, well, then acts likes this.

I dunno. I don't want to bully anyone, and I really don't want these two women to come back here and see a bunch of awfulness directed at them, but it bothers me and I think it's worth discussing.

So - Victorian drag. What the hell?

I've seen Quaker Jane's blog before, I'm a repro-vintage clothing nut too myself so I found it on one of my wanderings around sewing sites. Have you seen her husband? They really are an odd couple. She wears the victorian 'plain quaker' clothing including HUGE bonnets and her husband has dreadlocks!

[Mama Mia]

I stumbled across Quaker Jane quite awhile ago ... it makes you wonder how the internet has impacted people's religious choices. How many people who are recent converts to one lifestyle or another are because of random web searches... and how does that impact their families .. really interesting.

[ZTwist]

I'm fascinated by "Quaker Jane". I think she wanted to dress in such a way that shouted "look at me" and then shopped around for a religion to fit. Notice that she didn't join a Quaker meeting, she "fellowships" with the Ohio Yearly Meeting of conservative Friends. What does this even mean? A yearly meeting is just that, they meet YEARLY. It's not a congregation, it's just an organizational tool.

I am a convinced Friend, that's what we call converts to Quakerism, and I haven't seen that she lives her faith, she just likes talking in plain speech and dressing up.

:angry-banghead:

[Creaky Mom]

I am 25 years old. I am a wife to a Beloved Husband, mother to three precious little boys, an eager student of Cookery, Sewing, Making a Pleasant Home and Living a Godly Life. I am an attempted writer, sometimes poet, sometimes singer, lover of Beauty, lover of Song, lover of Christ. I am the oldest of five siblings, a Homeschool Alumni and plan on training up my own children at home, for Christ.

And now I must conclude this blog post. I have a squirming child with the longest lashed blue eyes possible on my lap who needs a fat homemade cinnamon-bun and a glass of cold milk for breakfast. As I look outside the window we have next to our computer I see the wind blowing the tall, tall green grass in the "back pasture" with smoke-colored Mr. Nathan B. Forrest blithefully bounding through it, his tail gracefully pliant.

Yeah you are right about the writing, even she sees herself as a fail there. Would be nice if she spat out the marbles rolling around in her brain and wrote what she saw. It probably was real pretty. (Bolding is mine.)

Haven't checked in on Quaker Jane for a while. She always struck me as a more restrained Tasha Tudor.

[onlyorganic]

I have definitely visited this woman's blogs before, I remember the way the husband looks with those mutton-chop sideburns. Here's my thing: so wifey doesn't work, obv, right? Does dear husband actually go to whatever 9-5 job he has and come home and they sit around wearing these ridiculous clothes? And he gives her money to buy the massive amounts of material necessary? I could see if she sold the clothes, but everything seems to be for herself and her collection.

ETA: There's nothing wrong with doing historical reenactments. Whatever, that's your thing. There's nothing wrong with loving period clothing. What I don't get is how some people can invest huge amounts of money to do it. She reminds me of a real-life American Girl's Collection doll. Ohhhh, here are my dishes! And here is my sleepwear!

[Wolfie]

I have definitely visited this woman's blogs before, I remember the way the husband looks with those mutton-chop sideburns. Here's my thing: so wifey doesn't work, obv, right? Does dear husband actually go to whatever 9-5 job he has and come home and they sit around wearing these ridiculous clothes? And he gives her money to buy the massive amounts of material necessary? I could see if she sold the clothes, but everything seems to be for herself and her collection.

ETA: There's nothing wrong with doing historical reenactments. Whatever, that's your thing. There's nothing wrong with loving period clothing. What I don't get is how some people can invest huge amounts of money to do it. She reminds me of a real-life American Girl's Collection doll. Ohhhh, here are my dishes! And here is my sleepwear!

I think that she is not treated well by her husband from what I have seen her post on her blog and various websites, but she would argue that he treats her very well. She has really low self esteem.

I think she's spending less or about the same on the fabric than people would on clothing. I have actually made most of my dresses for less than a modern outfit bought at Target would cost but watching for fabric sales online. I've even found 100% silk for just a few dollars a yard. She is on a message board about historical clothing that also helps people find amazing deals on fabric and supplies. (The board has fundies, but isn't 100% populated by them like Jennie Chancey's board.)

[celestial]

(Aside: The title of this thread makes me want to go watch this movie.)

[oolong]

Ah, Sarah Jane was one of my "intro" fundies. Reading her blog, I got the impression that they dressed like that all the time. I posted about it on the old board a couple of years ago, and in her next post she explained that actually they wear modern clothing most of the time, but her blog is for displaying the historical clothing. Which I suppose makes it seem like she spends even more money and effort on a hobby. I thought she did have an Etsy or an Ebay store once upon a time though.

Now, Quaker Jane is fascinating to me. I found her years before I found FJ, and I agree -- it's an interesting family. I do think she has sincere religious feelings, and whatever turns her on spiritually is cool, but I did have a discussion with my close Quaker friend about how we personally thought she focused on an awful lot on clothing for someone trying to be "plain". Almost as though it defeats the purpose. But then, it all depends on what aspect of "plain" and "simplicity" and "modest" you're focusing on I guess. I do think she takes it to a bit of a silly extreme, but she doesn't think everyone else should do it just because she does, and I respect her greatly for that. I do wonder what her parents and other family think of it (she has mentioned them before).

And I think Quaker Jane has written before about how there is no Meeting in her area, or something like that, so she practices her religion alone. I sympathize with that as I've never found a church or anything where I feel comfortable either, and sometimes I want to. Her husband is described on the blog as "pagan", IIRC, and she has a daughter who is 2 or 3 now whom she dresses plain. I wonder if she will homeschool.

Ed. for clarity

[ladypuglover]

romantichistory.blogspot.com/2011/11/rant-yes-rant.html

I was so understanding of her rant until this little blurb;

Aw, David is holding Mr. Lincoln's hand. Or we could alternately title this "The Division and Reunion". We have the North, we have Mr. Lincoln, we have The South. It was because of Mr. Lincoln (one could argue) that the war was initiated and lasted so long. But it was also because of his legacy that the south was reunited with the north after his death. Which, unfortunately, was horrific because congress didn't like President Johnson's "too lenient" views on southern citizenship. . .but I shall refrain from too much commentary. . .

The stupid, it burns.

[Rosa]

(Aside: The title of this thread makes me want to go watch this movie.)

I know! I am SO disappointed, I was 100% sure the surprise at the end of the first post was going to be that she was dressing as a Victorian GENTLEMAN.

(The book is awesome, I haven't seen the movie yet. But speaking of "writing in Victorian style" - Tipping the Velvet, Fingersmith, and Affinity do a really good job of using period slang & style but being readable).

[The Archivist]

I'm fascinated by "Quaker Jane". I think she wanted to dress in such a way that shouted "look at me" and then shopped around for a religion to fit.

See, I don't want to be uncharitable, but this is kind of the feeling I got, too. And the broader phenomenon of (Americans, especially) sort of shopping for a religion is kind of strange and fascinating to me. Not sure how I feel about it, but in this case, it really does feel like the religious conviction followed the outfits. Which is...I'm not sure it's a good order for things to happen in.

[GiGi_41]

Okay...I have to tell you I love Quaker Jane. Maybe its because I am a Quaker. That's the great thing about being a Quaker, you listen for the light and what is right for you. If you want to be a bonnet wearing Quaker that's fine. If you want to be an Atheist Quaker that's fine too.

I'm fascinated by "Quaker Jane". I think she wanted to dress in such a way that shouted "look at me" and then shopped around for a religion to fit. Notice that she didn't join a Quaker meeting, she "fellowships" with the Ohio Yearly Meeting of conservative Friends. What does this even mean? A yearly meeting is just that, they meet YEARLY. It's not a congregation, it's just an organizational tool.

I believe that she hasn't "joined the Ohio Yearly Meeting" as you join a Monthly Meeting which is affiliated with a Yearly Meeting. If you have read her site you'll notice that she has become a member of a local liberal meeting.

After a few months of solitary observance, I attended a local unprogrammed Meeting. A liberal meeting, they proved wary but ultimately welcoming, and I became a member.

My personal testimony of Plain Dress is not wearing clothes from the 19th century...I think that plain dress changes as the years go by. Dressing like Quaker Jane just brings more attention to herself then the idea of dressing plain. I usually wear long dresses, or long skirts and three quarter length sleeves blouses that are tailored, but I also wear pants and when home and not going out, I certainly wear pajama pants as I believe in comfort. Most of my clothes have come from thrift stores, which is my idea of "plain" and I tend to stick to blacks and greys...I don't cover my head nor does anyone in my meeting.

Though Quaker Jane has a plain dress testimony, she doesn't seem too out there!

ETA because trying to post while toddlers are crawling on top of you leads to riffles and poor grammar!

[Wolfie]

Just curious, but does quaker jane's daughter have the same name as she does? The only Tibbie/Tibbys I've known were actually Isabels.

[celestial]

I know! I am SO disappointed, I was 100% sure the surprise at the end of the first post was going to be that she was dressing as a Victorian GENTLEMAN.

(The book is awesome, I haven't seen the movie yet. But speaking of "writing in Victorian style" - Tipping the Velvet, Fingersmith, and Affinity do a really good job of using period slang & style but being readable).

I know, I was waiting for that too! :D IMO the book and movie are both awesome.

[AnnieC 305]

First, I have to say I am deeply impressed with her sewing skills. That dress is amazing.

Ok, I confess, I have worn historical dress in unlikely situations before. During my first two years of college I volunteered with the local History And Art Association and we used to dress up to lead tours around town and for special events. On one (OK, more than one) occasion I knew I wasn't going to have time to change between class and an event so I just went to class in historical dress. And on more than one occasion I stopped at the grocery store before heading home. It was fun and you do get wicked odd looks. Kids used to stare and I would go into historic mode just to see how they would react.

But I don't think it's something I would do just for the heck of it.

Granted we have friends in the SCA and friends who do Mountain Man reenacting, so don't quote me on that in the future.

If you want to be an Atheist Quaker that's fine too.

:confusion-scratchheadyellow: Honest question, how does that work?

[GiGi_41]

Just curious, but does quaker jane's daughter have the same name as she does? The only Tibbie/Tibbys I've known were actually Isabels.

I believe her daughter's name is Tabitha.

[GiGi_41]

:confusion-scratchheadyellow: Honest question, how does that work?

Quakers believe that all have the light within...and that we sit in silence listening for the truth as it means to each of us individually. A few links...

nontheistfriends.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheist_Friend (I didn't break this because it is Wiki)

[ZTwist]

"Okay...I have to tell you I love Quaker Jane. Maybe its because I am a Quaker. That's the great thing about being a Quaker, you listen for the light and what is right for you. If you want to be a bonnet wearing Quaker that's fine. If you want to be an Atheist Quaker that's fine too. "

I guess what I meant is that her desire to dress plain seems way more important to her than the religion.

I admit I missed the part where she said she joined a monthly meeting

[doe]

I found her recently while googling "week in feminine dress." I noticed she has a 'come hither' look going on in some of her pictures, which makes her different from the other week in feminine dress bloggers.

The third picture down (close up) was the first picture I saw of her in google images, and was shocked to learn she was fundie esque.

romantichistory.blogspot.com/2011/08/week-in-feminine-dress-day-7-and-black.html

I searched the old board, but only found one thread that mentioned her. You say she was discussed already? I'll search again.

[GiGi_41]

I guess what I meant is that her desire to dress plain seems way more important to her than the religion.

I admit I missed the part where she said she joined a monthly meeting

I agree with you. I think that I maybe enamored with her because of her willingness to be the center of attention without being coerced by a religious body or leader.

Or it could just be that my years of watching "Little House on the Prairie"! :think:

[ZTwist]

OT, but there seems to be a thread running through this thread of loving vintage clothing, so . .

I volunteer at our county historical society outside of Philadelphia, and get to help catalogue the vintage clothing. You should see the gorgeous 19th cent. Quaker clothing. Beautiful silks in wonderful muted colors. Styles were plain, but very well made in expensive fabrics. And the Quaker bonnets :D

[Kaylee]

Ah, Sarah Jane was one of my "intro" fundies. ...I thought she did have an Etsy or an Ebay store once upon a time though.

She still has the Etsy store, but there are usually only a few dresses on it and they seem to be things that were made for her and worn a time or two for reenactments. I also envy her sewing skills and there are a few dresses from her blog I would love to own in my size.

As far as period dress, I've always loved it, and I occasionally wore period clothing to class just for the heck of it (a couple Victorian dresses, a few Medieval outfits). I've always been a bit odd though, fashionwise (keep in mind I still wear cape dresses and headcoverings around the house many days when I'm cleaning or staying home all day). When I was younger, I loved 60s & 70s vintage, and now I wear a lot of 40s & 50s inspired and reproduction clothing, but those blend in much more than the fancier things.

I was talking to two women at (non-fundie) church the other day, and one was saying how much she likes the retro clothes and wishes she could find more, and another was saying she's dress in Civil War Era gowns if she could. , so maybe it's more common that it looks for people to like the clothes and want to wear them, but must of us are constrained either by budget, jobs where normal clothes are expected, and worrying what other people might think or say about it.

[The Archivist]

I'm still thinking about this whole thing, and as someone else who admires vintage clothing, it's complicated.

Maybe I feel like, if you want to dress up just because you want to, that's rad. Let your freak flag fly. But it irks me a little bit when people put religious motivations (whether it's direct - God Told Me To - or indirect, via Modesty) behind their choice of clothing - something that is fun, socially relevant, yes, but ultimately? Not super important. I mean, what did the Bible say about the lilies of the field?

Anyway, I think that's my issue. Wear your vintage clothes proudly, I say, but I'd rather not hear religious justifications for doing so (unless you are part of a religious sect that ACTUALLY practices plain dress, like Amish or Mennonite - and in those cases, the old-timey clothing is one of the less important aspects of the lifestyle choices.)

Because, let's be honest, if you're not part of such a sect, you're probably doing it because you just like it that way. And that is reason enough.

Lest you think I'm being judgmental (I totally am, by the way), Sarah Jane kind of goes off on denim skirts in a snotty way that makes me love her:

Flared, gored, denim skirt from Goodwill. I ought to like this skirt more than I do but I really don't care for it all that much. In our local area there are several different religious groups/cults that wear skirts like these, so often, it has become almost a uniform for them and people assume you are part of those groups when they see you wear a skirt like that. The plus side to having these local groups around is that long denim skirts are easy to find at the local thrift shops. The downside is looking like One of Them.

So here I am trying to look like a Vulcan to avoid the stereoptypical religious-cult look.

romantichistory.blogspot.com/2011/07/week-in-feminine-dress-day-4.html