MD: doctors charged with murder for late term abortions

[Beeks]

Doctors who traveled to Md to perform late term abortions illegally have been charged with murder for the death of the fetuses:

washingtonpost.com/national/2-doctors-accused-of-performing-late-term-abortions-in-md-arrested-and-charged-with-murder/2011/12/30/gIQAfhXOQP_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop

I find this interesting because one would assume that the laws that allow a murder charge for killing of a viable fetus would apply when it is done against the will of the mother. Here the mothers presumably consented to the terminations, the fetuses have no other legal standing as human beings, and yet the doctors are charged with murder. Anyone have more details on this case?

[doggie]

this looks like a real mess. but it does not look like the doctors are great doctors. why were they storing the aborted fetus's?

[bananacat]

The article actually says that "Maryland is one of 38 states that allows murder charges to be brought against someone accused of killing a viable fetus." The law was introduced with the intent of adding an extra charge for someone who kills or injures a pregnant woman. There was that one guy who killed his pregnant wife or girlfriend that made the national news, and a lot of people felt that he deserved extra punishment because of the fetus. So a lot of states responded with laws like this, that unfortunately backfire because intent isn't magic. I think there could have been a better solution, such as a lesser charge that isn't counted as a second murder.

Roe v. Wade only protects abortions up to a certain time period, possibly only the first trimester. I think every state has restrictions on late-term abortions, but it's still legal for the health/life of the pregnant woman, or for fetal defects. It varies from state to state how much of a health risk the woman must face before being allowed to have an abortion. One thing that's interesting about the article is that it doesn't mention why the doctor performed any of these abortions. It's exceedingly rare for a pregnant woman to just wake up one day 36 weeks pregnant and decide to have an abortion just for giggles. I'm sure there were valid reasons for all of these, although it is very odd that he kept the fetuses. I'll give these women the benefit of the doubt here so I don't object to the abortions happening. But it does sound like the doctor was doing something illegal, especially in the case where he didn't get proper care for the last patient who had complications from it. I would say there is a possible case for medical malpractice and improper disposal of a corpse, and he probably didn't keep the required medical records. But it's not murder and he shouldn't be charged with it.

[crazyforkate]

That is absolutely ridiculous. It's possible the doctor could be charged with something, malpractice or what not, but murder?

Does anyone know exactly why the abortions were performed?

This is weird...and sets a very dangerous precedent. I think we'll find out more later.

[PennySycamore]

bananacat, I think that Roe v Wade protects the right of a woman to have an abortion up until around the end of the second trimester which is about when the fetus is viable. It's supposed to anyway, but that is not how it works in actual practice. Hell, it's hard enough for most women in the US to get a first trimester abortion.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Sounds like a test case to me, but it also sounds like these were some questionable doctors. Not calling 911 when a patient was having complications? Refusing to give your name to other medical professionals during this patients emergency? Sounds pretty fishy to me.

[valsa]

Sounds like a test case to me, but it also sounds like these were some questionable doctors. Not calling 911 when a patient was having complications? Refusing to give your name to other medical professionals during this patients emergency? Sounds pretty fishy to me.

Yes, from all available evidence it sounds like these were some shitty doctors. Unfortunately, it also sounds like the prosecutors are going to try to pass case law that could affect good doctors based solely on the fact that these were shitty doctors.

[bubbabearzle]

This is a really tough one for me. I am VERY pro-choice up to a point. IMHO, once a fetus is viable outside the womb, it should be delivered alive and allowed a fighting chance if the mother wants it or not, unless it had some condition incompatible with life. I am very much against any woman having to carry and give birth to a child that she does not want to have, but once that fetus is viable outside her body it should also have the right to have a chance to live, KWIM?

In this particular case, however, the main case in question involves a 21 week fetus, which is prior to viability, so I don't see how they are being charged with homicide. The frozen fetus that was 36 weeks along is very troubling, but we really don't know what happened there. If it turns out that they "aborted" a fetus that was one week from being considered full term they should certainly be charged. My younger son was born around that length of gestation.

[valsa]

IMHO, once a fetus is viable outside the womb, it should be delivered alive and allowed a fighting chance if the mother wants it or not, unless it had some condition incompatible with life.

Theoretically, I agree with you. Practically, I disagree.

Though it can vary a little bit, viability is generally considered 22-24+ weeks. If a 22-24 week old fetus is delivered, who is going to pay the several millions of dollars it's going to cost to not only hospitalize that baby, but also to care for it the rest of its life? Micropreemies have an extremely high risk for life-long disability (iirc, over 50%) Also, who's going to raise it? Adoption websites are filled with infants who are considered "unadoptable" because they're severely disabled.

On the other side of the equation, we'd also have to make sure that delivering a viable fetus is just as medically safe as aborting it for the mother.

[bananacat]

I'm certain that the 36 week fetus was not viable for some reason or another. There may be some woman out there who would wait until week 36 to abort a healthy pregnancy, but when you find her she'll be having tea with a Yeti and a still-living Elvis. I am willing to give the woman the benefit of the doubt here. If it were just an elective abortion, she would have done it months earlier.

[AudreyE]

I hate it when news organizations report things while leaving out really critical information. Seems like they could at least say, "Hey, we'll get back to you with more information on why the fetuses were aborted and, also, why the docs had freezers full of fetuses, because we know every damn person who reads this must be wondering those very obvious things."

At any rate... a 24 week fetus is typically only "viable" in the sense that it can (sometimes) be kept alive with great effort, the best of modern technology and many weeks in NICU. A healthy 36 week fetus can more often than not be kept alive without any extra care.

[Witsec4]

This is where I live, and there obviously, has been a lot of coverage in our local paper. The docs came under fire about a year and a half ago, when they performed an abortion on an 18-year-old woman who was either 20 or 21 weeks pregnant. In order to skirt various state laws, these docs had been beginning the procedures in New Jersey, and then making the patients drive themselves here to Maryland (which, depending on traffic, is at least a 40 minute drive, where they then finished the procedures. The woman in question had her uterus (and I think her intestine, too) punctured during the procedure. These docs had had their medical licenses yanked by Jersey, and I think Utah as well. The part of town where their clinic was located is extremely shady, and as the article said, there were a lot (37 comes of mind) of fetuses found frozen in the clinic.

Here's the article from our local paper that explains the state laws more clearly, and why the docs are facing murder charges.

http://www.cecilwhig.com/news/local_new ... 963f4.html

[Witsec7]

I read this yesterday. I think once the indictment is opened we'll have more news. The RTL is having a field day with it now.

Folks just don't understand that fetal viability is a moving target because of the technology we have available. 24 wks was a death sentence before we had NICU and all our contemporary understanding of neonatal medicine. Survival rates have increased, but at the cost of millions to folks who choose to use them.

[SunnyAndrsn]

This is where I live, and there obviously, has been a lot of coverage in our local paper. The docs came under fire about a year and a half ago, when they performed an abortion on an 18-year-old woman who was either 20 or 21 weeks pregnant. In order to skirt various state laws, these docs had been beginning the procedures in New Jersey, and then making the patients drive themselves here to Maryland (which, depending on traffic, is at least a 40 minute drive, where they then finished the procedures. The woman in question had her uterus (and I think her intestine, too) punctured during the procedure. These docs had had their medical licenses yanked by Jersey, and I think Utah as well. The part of town where their clinic was located is extremely shady, and as the article said, there were a lot (37 comes of mind) of fetuses found frozen in the clinic.

Here's the article from our local paper that explains the state laws more clearly, and why the docs are facing murder charges.

http://www.cecilwhig.com/news/local_new ... 963f4.html

That does help a bit, thanks. I still think this is going to be used ultimately as a test case, just based on how the Washington Post presented the article.

[Kailis]

That does help a bit, thanks. I still think this is going to be used ultimately as a test case, just based on how the Washington Post presented the article.

This. I give it a week before some major anti-choice folks grab a hold of this story.

My major thoughts from this article:

1) I am VERY interested to hear more about how the five fetuses and exactly how "viable" they were. Yes, I know many 24-28 week old fetuses can survive outside the womb, but getting an abortion at that point is not a decision I can imagine anyone taking lightly, especially if it involves crossing state lines.

2) I am curious as to why the fetuses were being stored in a freezer. Anyone have any idea on this one?

[Burris]

The frozen fetus that was 36 weeks along is very troubling, but we really don't know what happened there. If it turns out that they "aborted" a fetus that was one week from being considered full term they should certainly be charged.

36 weeks? Unless the fetus had a condition incompatible with life or the mother were in mortal danger if she delivered, then the act of killing the fetus should be murder.

[ilovetchotchkes]

36 weeks? Unless the fetus had a condition incompatible with life or the mother were in mortal danger if she delivered, then the act of killing the fetus should be murder.

Yeah, I'm 100% pro choice, but if the fetus had nothing wrong with it, that's AWFUL. My sister was born at 36w2d and she went home with my mom 2 days later. No nicu, APGAR of 9! If you're that far along, and you really don't want the kid, there are other options. And I'm one of those people who gets really pissy at people who hate on folks who get abortions and are all "ADOPTION IS THE ANSWER". 36 weeks is damn near term at 37 weeks. You've had the better part of your pregnancy to figure out what to do. Moreover,as far as the mother being in mortal danger for delivering- well, a 36 weeker is about 5-6lbs, its not going to make THAT much difference than if you deliver at term.

I really really hope something was drastically wrong with the baby.

[Rachel333]

I had a sibling born at 36 weeks who was almost 8 lbs (sounds big, but all my mom's full term babies were a lot bigger).

I really can't be okay with abortion at that stage. At that point you've already been through pregnancy and you're going to have to give birth anyway, so it really doesn't solve anything.

The thing is, though, I would be shocked if it was a healthy fetus that the mother just decided to abort at 36 weeks. That just doesn't happen, and I'm sure there's more to the story.

I also have to point out that adoption isn't an option for a lot of women. There are a lot of men who won't give up their parental rights. They won't take care of the baby either, but they'll hold it over the woman. That's just a bad situation for the mother and the baby.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I had a sibling born at 36 weeks who was almost 8 lbs (sounds big, but all my mom's full term babies were a lot bigger).

I really can't be okay with abortion at that stage. At that point you've already been through pregnancy and you're going to have to give birth anyway, so it really doesn't solve anything.

The thing is, though, I would be shocked if it was a healthy fetus that the mother just decided to abort at 36 weeks. That just doesn't happen, and I'm sure there's more to the story.

I also have to point out that adoption isn't an option for a lot of women. There are a lot of men who won't give up their parental rights. They won't take care of the baby either, but they'll hold it over the woman. That's just a bad situation for the mother and the baby.

Yep! thats why a friend of mine had to have an abortion (albiet a 100% legal one at like 5 weeks!!!). Her fiance was abusive, beat the shit out of her daily, and basically raped her, she left and realized she was pregnant. She KNEW that he would never ever sign away parental rights and not only that but would probably kill her for leaving with "his" child. :(

[NurseNell]

this looks like a real mess. but it does not look like the doctors are great doctors. why were they storing the aborted fetus's?

And they were crossing state lines to practice in states where they weren't licensed. It is very easy, once you are licensed in one state, to get a license by reciprocity in another state.

Not calling 911 for the woman with serious complications is cause for a malpractice suit.

And keeping the babies in a freezer, what the hell! But that will make it easy for a pathologist to do autopsies and see if there were abnormalities.

[Mama Mia]

36 weeks is the mark you have to hit to deliver at the cool birthing center instead of the regular hospital in my area.. so it is definitely the date the women I know have as the "I''ve made it !" date.

Even at 27 weeks the survival rate is around 90%

[haveapicniclife]

36 weeks is the mark you have to hit to deliver at the cool birthing center instead of the regular hospital in my area.. so it is definitely the date the women I know have as the "I''ve made it !" date.

Even at 27 weeks the survival rate is around 90%

This. Two of my three children were born at around 36 weeks (one was 36 weeks and a handful of days, one was one day past-- 37weeks exactly). That is considered full term by most people, and they were both healthy and each almost 7lbs. We went home within 2 days for each of them, no issues.

[bananacat]

Until I see some evidence that the 36 week fetus was viable, I'll assume that it wasn't. I just don't understand why everyone is wringing their hands so much like there's a good chance that it could have actually been a baby. If it turns out that it was perfectly healthy then I'll be first in line to demand charges against the doctors and the woman, but that is extremely unlikely.

[valsa]

Note: The following numbers are derived using statistics from the Guttmacher Institute.

In 2008, there were 1.21 million abortions performed in the U.S. Of those, 4% involved 16+ week old fetuses. Breaking those numbers down further, of the 16+ week abortions, 26.2% are 21+ weeks (12,680 abortions total) Now, according to the statistics from the Guttmacher Institute, 25% of ALL abortions involve concerns about maternal or fetal health. It’s safe to assume that the number would be higher for second and third term abortions, especially considering that after a certain point you can only get an abortion due to maternal or fetal health issues, but we’ll go with 25% as a very, very conservative estimate. Thus, by our very, very conservative estimate, approximately 9,510 21+ week abortions are “electiveâ€.

Let’s say that we deliver every single one of those “viable†unwanted fetuses (considering that the vast majority of those fetuses would be delivered between 21-24 weeks (in 1997, only 1032 abortions were 24+ weeks), they’d be a the very edge of viability) Now let’s estimate that the average cost of hospitalization for these babies is 1 million dollars each (also an extremely conservative number) We’d spend a little over 9.5 billion dollars a year for just hospitalization, not including the cost of any life-long disabilities and foster care.

It’s also important to note that women who have second term abortions overwhelmingly wish they’d been able to have those abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The top reasons for women to have a late-term but legal abortion, barring fetal or maternal health issues, are cost and accessibility. No woman wakes up one day and decides to abort a 5 or 6 month old fetus because she's going on a vacation the next week and wants to look good in a bikini. So wouldn’t it make sense to, instead of throwing away 9.5+ billion dollars each year, spend a fraction of that on providing free-or-very-low cost abortions, as well as free-or-very-low cost transportation and other initiatives to improve accessibility so those women could have earlier abortions? After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Yep! thats why a friend of mine had to have an abortion (albiet a 100% legal one at like 5 weeks!!!). Her fiance was abusive, beat the shit out of her daily, and basically raped her, she left and realized she was pregnant. She KNEW that he would never ever sign away parental rights and not only that but would probably kill her for leaving with "his" child. :(

What about Safe Haven laws?